I have to say that a bit of style is important - and good skiers have it. It shows effortlessness. Yes, you can get all the technique right, wide stance, weight forwards, proper angulation etc. And you can become a good skier.
But every time I see one of those old dudes wafting down the mountain, legs locked together, unfazed by any terrain, I wish I'd learned on a pair of 2 metre straight skis decades ago. Lady Flashman has it - at 33 years old, she started skiing on straight skis 30 years ago, aged three. And her and her brothers' skiing is lovely to watch: they have that sinuous (good word, masque!), effortless style that seems to work in any conditions, on any slope angle, in any terrain.
Lovely to watch. Even if some of it is regarded as "poor technique" for carving skis.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Harry Flashman wrote:
thirty06,
I have to say that a bit of style is important - and good skiers have it. It shows effortlessness. Yes, you can get all the technique right, wide stance, weight forwards, proper angulation etc. And you can become a good skier.
But every time I see one of those old dudes wafting down the mountain, legs locked together, unfazed by any terrain, I wish I'd learned on a pair of 2 metre straight skis decades ago. Lady Flashman has it - at 33 years old, she started skiing on straight skis 30 years ago, aged three. And her and her brothers' skiing is lovely to watch: they have that sinuous (good word, masque!), effortless style that seems to work in any conditions, on any slope angle, in any terrain.
Lovely to watch. Even if some of it is regarded as "poor technique" for carving skis.
+1
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Harry Flashman, +1
I think many of the posters are coming to this from a serious 'technique' perspective. The majority of people go skiing for pleasure. Because it makes them feel good. That's not necessarily the same as being as efficient as possible. Jean-Claude Killy's downhill style, hunched back and arms wide like a gorilla, was efficient and effective but not necessarily stylish.
Exactly, foxtrotzulu. Skiing is meant to be fun. Anyone can get down a mountain with perfect technique and brutal efficiency with the requisite amount of training and practice. But I'd like to do it with a bit of panache as well!
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Bit of a false dichotomy. I'd like to have both perfect technique and panache.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
meh, that's what I meant. Not one over the other - but I would like to ski well, with style. I don't hold with the "efficiency is all - doesn't matter how your technique looks" viewpoint. I like a bit of elegance in all things. Well, maybe not in, for example, my drunken late-night kebab, but you get my meaning.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Harry Flashman, yup which is why I defined style as less encompassing technique but more what you do with it in my first post.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
Harry Flashman, how do you define stylish?
Rob, I don't, really. Just someone who is a pleasure to watch, even if everything they are doing is not exactly as it should be, by the textbook of modern skiing. Someone who doesn't obsess about technique, but just gets everywhere, in control, and looking good.
I think you can only be stylish if you are a good skier, but not all good skiers are stylish.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
Harry Flashman, if you can't define stylish (other than you recognise it when you see it), can you define effective or highlight ways in which effective does not equal stylish?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Harry Flashman, I submit that with "perfect technique and brutal efficiency", you will be stylish as well.
You are not going to try and tell me that this is devoid of panache or style
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
rob@rar wrote:
Harry Flashman, if you can't define stylish (other than you recognise it when you see it), can you define effective or highlight ways in which effective does not equal stylish?
Probably not, Rob - and to be fair, I'm not taking this all too seriously.
As an advanced intermediate, I would like to look good as well as be good: maximise what I can do, smoothly and with some sort of flair. It's a personal view, and a subjective thing.
re the clip above, lovely; I love the way those guys use the air as just another element in which to maximise speed. But to us mere mortals, unable to get anywhere near that, when I do manage to ski, I would like to exercise my average skills with some degree of looking nice too. And yes, I take the point - this means getting better.
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 9-01-14 19:56; edited 3 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Harry Flashman, my view entirely.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Harry Flashman, I get that ^^ viewpoint. I long to be one of those skiers that other learners point out to their skiing companions from a chair-lift and say 'I want to look like that skier'. OK, it's never going to happen and at the moment I'm the one doing the pointing, but I do know what you mean.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Megamum wrote:
OK, it's never going to happen....
Don't say that! There's hope for all of us!
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Megamum, They all point at me from the chairlifts, but sadly not for the right reasons
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
"I can see that man's John Thomas!"
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
I'd like to be in a position to say I'm not satisfied merely to ski with perfect technique and brutal efficiency. Perfect technique OR brutal efficiency would be the stuff of dreams.
From my point of view style involves a degree of grace, effectiveness doesn't
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Quote:
style involves a degree of grace
the trouble is, anyone who looks as though they are trying for "grace", has failed. Especially if they are doing that twirly pole thing.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Indeed pam w, but if anyone is "trying" to be stylish then they too have failed. It involves it effortlessly IMO
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What's the twirly pole thing?
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Quote:
What's the twirly pole thing?
Hmm. How to describe it? It's a kind of limp-wristed circular movement before the pole plant, usually accompanied by a bit of a wiggle and a mince. You've never seen that?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Hi Masque ... I've just twigged it ....
All us "Bambis on ice" are there to look up to and pay due homage to the stag creasing silently bravely ... stylishly down the terrifying slope.
He looks stylish and very smooth... because he can do it and has earned it ... he was a Bambi once ...
and we can look forward to growing huge antlers at some stage in the future when we can can do it.
Now back to getting the right pair of sunglasses.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
Quote:
Now back to getting the right pair of sunglasses.
'Rose tinted' ones I think
DrLawn, the trouble with that analogy is us lady 'Bambi's' We are never going to grow huge antlers and are unlikely to develop the stag's balls either!!!
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
Hmm. How to describe it? It's a kind of limp-wristed circular movement before the pole plant, usually accompanied by a bit of a wiggle and a mince. You've never seen that?
Cheers pam w, I now have a picture of John Inman, in his Are You Being Served suit on skis , I may have to litigate against the possibility of permanent mental scarring
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
I'll have to watch out from the chairlifts and try to get a bit of video of pole-twerking.
Hmm. If it wasn't for the ghastly hair and tassels.......and music. Terrific athleticism, though.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Harry Flashman wrote:
rob@rar wrote:
Harry Flashman, if you can't define stylish (other than you recognise it when you see it), can you define effective or highlight ways in which effective does not equal stylish?
Probably not, Rob - and to be fair, I'm not taking this all too seriously.
As an advanced intermediate, I would like to look good as well as be good: maximise what I can do, smoothly and with some sort of flair. It's a personal view, and a subjective thing.
re the clip above, lovely; I love the way those guys use the air as just another element in which to maximise speed. But to us mere mortals, unable to get anywhere near that, when I do manage to ski, I would like to exercise my average skills with some degree of looking nice too. And yes, I take the point - this means getting better.
Appreciate it's a light hearted discussion. The reason I'm interested in it as that sometimes a new client will reply that they want to ski more stylishly when I ask them what their priorities are. That really doesn't help me because, as has been said earlier in this thread, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. So I have to question them a bit further on what they mean by 'style' (same as I asked you) and it often boils down to this:
- Want to ski rhythmically
- Want to make rounded, well linked turns
- Want to ski well within their 'zone of control', not flailing about almost wiping out on every third turn
Occasionally they will point to skiers with a very narrow stance and say they'd like to emulate that (at which point I explain why I won't help them to work towards that).
So when generally you unpack their desires to ski stylishly I understand what they would like and support entirely their priorities. I'd call that skiing effectively, other people might call it stylish. Isn't this a discussion about semantics?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rob@rar, I think fluidity is the key to combining effectiveness with style. In other words, style=not flailing about.
So when generally you unpack their desires to ski stylishly I understand what they would like and support entirely their priorities. I'd call that skiing effectively, other people might call it stylish. Isn't this a discussion about semantics?
I think the problems arise when folk try to emulate what they see rather than observing or being aware of the underlying mechanics. That stylishness is often a factor of, as you say for example, rounded, rhythmic turns and not appearing to flail about.
However, just as our voice never sounds as we expect when we hear it ourselves, emulating purely what we (think) we see other skiers do doesn't do the same as we think it does. As mentioned way back at the beginning of the threads, picture the squat, pole-skyward 'tuck' that we often see... in their minds eye, they look like a downhill champion. Apply that same self image to all other aspects of skiing, and you could have someone who believes they are stylish but simply aren't, indeed, they are likely to not even be skiing efficiently nor effectively.
Trying to copy simply what we see all the time could end up with someone trying to attain a goal which is impractical to the point that they may end up being put off skiing as they can't do it. If they stopped worrying about what they thought it looked like and concentrated on technique and mechanics, they may well find that the style they seek follows naturally.
Years ago, the first time I saw myself on video, I discovered I bobbed my head from side to side when I was short swinging. Looked ridiculous but I had no idea I did it, nor did it serve any purpose.
I think the key to this discussion is, are we looking at "stylish skiing" as that of something we observe in others, or what we are trying to achieve in ourselves. That makes a fundamental difference to the direction of the argument.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Many Austrian friends still see narrow stance wedeln turns with a lot of tail swishing as the pinacle of skiing in style. "These new fangled freeride skiers only get a couple of turns in per run".
"These new fangled freeride skiers only get a couple of turns in per run".
True, but all those awesome Austrian slalom skiers get many more turns in that that, and not a wedel in sight
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Actually I think Megamum is on to something with this line:
Quote:
I long to be one of those skiers that other learners point out to their skiing companions from a chair-lift and say 'I want to look like that skier'.
When I'm skiing with inexperienced skiers and we're watching people fror a chairlift I sometimes find that they are picking out people with a slightly flouncy (theatrical pole plants, pronounced "wiggle") and feet together style as a marker of good skiing. Not all learners do that but some do.
I guess aspire to be someone that really good skiers (instructors, lifties, etc) would say, if asked, "yeah not too bad". And for this I think you need to flow, poised and in control with a "quiet" technique - broadly meaning no unnecesssary movements - legs move a lot, upper body appearing very still, plenty of angulation requiring a functional stance, pole plants from the wrist only. As Masque (I think) said - any flourish comes from the line and the flow, not the technique.
After all it is free
After all it is free
I had a friend who was getting lessons last season. I spotted them on the slope and waved a hello as I went past. She mentioned earlier that evening that her instructor hadn't made any comment about my skiing. Apparently, from the comments the instructor normally makes, that meant I must have been skiing well.
It's not always what's said that counts, sometimes what's unsaid matters too.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
rob@rar wrote:
DB wrote:
"These new fangled freeride skiers only get a couple of turns in per run".
True, but all those awesome Austrian slalom skiers get many more turns in that that, and not a wedel in sight
Their reply would be something like "you don't need to carve to ski powder."
Quite a few skiers (esp. old school) can ski powder without being able to carve with lot of popping and smearing.
I've often wondered how much smearing should be used in powder skiing. In variable cruddy conditions the smearing doesn't work too well so their pop goes into overdrive and they quickly become knackered. Carving through crud it is much easier if conditions permit.
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Quote:
It's not always what's said that counts, sometimes what's unsaid matters too.
I agree that's kind of why I put the "if asked" bit in
Quote:
would say, if asked, "yeah not too bad".
I don't have many lessons but I took a private lesson 3 years ago to freshen things up. I'm no rock star skier. I do know my level. But ski shops and ski schools are so used to people overstating their ability that they tend to discount what you say which doesn't work for you if you are understated. So I pushed a little for a senior instructor with very good English to allow for more subtle, technical explanation. After our first run he gave a little nod and said "it's a good standard but we can work on a couple of things" - perfect
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