Helmets

A snowHead

stevepick, I was hit on the head when loading onto a chair, yes I was on the load line, but the mechanism on the chair caused the footrest/bar to be flung forward just as I was sitting down, then the footrests dug into the load ramp. My helmet saved me because I was struck a glancing blow. No amount of my changing position can account for shitty lift maintenance. Yes, I also have had a series of BASI 1 and BASI examiners as my teachers, small world eh wink

brian

I don't wear one, I just don't like them. I accept that puts me at an increased risk but so be it.

Like FrostyTS, I put them on the kids though. Can't beat a bit of parental hypocrisy wink

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I wear mine as I dont want to get my head all mashed in.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

What did we do for the years of skiing when helmets weren't available? ( well they were available - we could have worn motorbike helmets or climbing helmets - maybe they wern't cool enough?) yes I am a cynic , I don't wear one . I think there is a lot of "fashion" going on here - and it aint what I am wearing IanB - you can also keep your patronising tone and sympathy. Like I said , the fashion for wearing a helmet came in a few years ago, I am sure they will never go away just like rear entry boots and fluorescent skiwear, and you wear one if you want - just don't sneer at me if I don't want to wear one, and most importantly of all don't injure me with your helmet!

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I want one because I have been hit twice but out of control skiers from behind.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

stevepick, You keep suggesting that by putting on my Helmet, I turn into a skier who has no regard for anyone else on the slope. This is not the case.

After all it is free

stevepick,

my head is harder than my helmet - helmets help in two ways
1. they can deflect glancing blows
2. they can deform under more direct impact

I'm quite sure if the blokes head had hit your rib, your rib would have broken.

I've also done a reasonable amount of climbing/mountaineering and I ride a bike. I would always wear a helmet mountaineering and climbing on mountain crags (high risk of rock fall*) , I very seldom wear one on single/2 pitch outcrop climbing (low risk of rock fall and helmets can be very unwieldy when you are wriggling about in grooves, under over-hangs etc), I always wear one on my bike (loads of hard objects to brain yourself one), I now generally wear one for skiing (objects off-piste, idiots with sharp edges and hard boots on piste). I don't believe wearing a helmet makes anyone else more at risk.

* worth saying that climbing helmets are designed very differently - aim is to make them deform a lot under direct impact from above. Ski helmets are more designed to protect from front/back/sides. Also worth saying that a climbing helmet is useless in lots of incidents too - I remember watching a rock the size of a 32 inch TV bounce down a snow field towards me - it bounced over me as I flatened myself against the snow. Helmet would not have helped much if that had hit me.

Paul Holland please don't take it that way , its just I go hit by a guy wearing a helmet and it was sore - so i am biased by experience.

jedster he hit me on the ribs under my left arm - like I say i was lucky not to get a cracked rib, maybe years of crashing into snow fences in glenshee ( whilst not wearing a helmet ) toughened me up somewhat. Like i say wear a helmet if you want , I won't . And comiserations on your alpine( I guess ) climbing experience - I have had similar in chamonix and on eagle ridge , lochnagar - it's not nice !

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stevepick, I didn't mean it nastily, maybe I should have put a smily on the end Smile

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stevepick, you've mentioned "rear entry boots" a couple of times now. Before them, people were using leather boots. Rear entry were a big step forward in safety and control. After them came the more modern designs.
I'll do my best not to hit you, and provided you are stopped in a place where you are visible to skiers up hill from you, and skiing in a controlled manner, then that shouldn't be an issue.

brian

Wear The Fox Hat, not true. When Salomon brought out rear entry boots, everyone else was making plastic overlap types. They caught on because they were generally more comfortable to wear for a long time and they were easy to get on and off.

At the end of the day, I rely on my head and it's contents to earn a living as well as living the life I want. It can take only a fairly minor knock in the wrong place and you can lose anything from a small amount to full functionality. I love skiing, but I am willing to take every risk I can out of it because I do not want to die or, even worse, end up a vegetable who then wrecks the lives of his family into the bargain.

You know it makes sense.

I thought that this British Medical Journal article might be helpful:
BMJ 2005;330 (5 February), doi:10.1136/bmj.330.7486.0-a

"Helmets protect skiers and snowboarders, but may also cause harm
Helmets seem effective in protecting skiers from head injuries, but their role in protecting from neck injuries remains unclear. In a case-control study, Hagel and colleagues (p 281) compared estimates of matched odds ratios for the effect of helmet use on the risk of any head and neck injury, and they found that wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head injury by 29%. Results for neck injury had wide confidence intervals, so these authors could not rule out the possibility that wearing a helmet actually increases the risk of neck injury. "

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Nick - i don't think people would disagree with stats but then stats can be manipulated so you need to take them into context with other information... but you've got to balance the probabilities of not doing anything
(See Kramer - some of us learn things on this forum!)

Hypothetical scenario - fall onto head without helmet - potential concussion, fall onto head with helmet - potential whiplash.

I got whiplash first time I used my helmet at a ridiculously icy MK snowdome - at the time I asked the esteemed Snowheads panel - which was better - to have whiplash or concussion. I seem to recall being comforted by the fact that most people said better to have whiplash than concussion. (Which did disappear in about 2 weeks - unlike a friend who had concussion and still regularly blacks out - although i do know people who've had car accident whiplash long term also...)

Swings and roundabouts.... and that other saying which was something like: damn lies and statistics!

A snowHead

Agreed about damn lies and statistics. However this paper is in a proper peer-reviewed journal and had large numbers as far as I can remember (I read it in full at the time).
It convinced me enough to but my own "helmut" (see above). My boys say I only bought it to cover my shiney dome with a larger matching shiney dome. Smile

A snowHead

At the end of the day it's like an Avalanche tranceiver - u are statistically quite unlikely to need it, but when you do it could well save your life.

Life's a game of calculated (or not so calculated) risks... for some people most of the fun of skiing is the risk/fear factor.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Just to add to that study. Although it showed that there may be an increase in the risk of neck injuries when wearing a helmet, head injuries outnumbered neck injuries by about 5 to 1. Another point to make is that in total across the whole season in 19 ski resorts in Vermont, there were only 693 head injuries requiring the ski patrol to attend.

This website gives a very nice review of current statistics. Basically although wearing a helmet does reduce the risk of a head injury, in actual fact the risk of having a significant head injury is actually extremely low. We tend to overestimate this risk, for various reasons, of which fashion and the marketing strategies of helmet manufacturers may be part. Many people (ski instructors etc) pontificate on it without really knowing the incidence or risk in real terms. As always in these cases, personal experience (anecdotal evidence to give it it's correct title) is not reliable and tends to lead to an overestimation of risk.

In summary, as the risk of head injury when skiing is very low, although wearing a helmet reduces this risk, to not wear a helmet can hardly be considered reckless and people should not be castigated for not wearing one, or for expressing the opinion that one should not be compulsory.

Personally I wear a helmet if I'm hitting the park or going off-piste, if I'm just recreationally skiing I don't bother as I don't like how it looks.

Mountain mad you are right, statististics can be manipulated, however the whole ethos of evidence based medicine (EBM) is to critically appraise statistics so that this can be avoided. EBM is the best tool that we have at present for assessing these sorts of decisions.

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Hmm - I don't ski a lot (60days so far + numerous dry ski) but I think I've fallen down the stairs/tripped over more often than I've fallen while skiing - should I take to wearing one in the house? Very Happy

Silly question maybe but it illustrates my point - if you are pushing it in terms of speed or terrain, helmet definately, but for a bit of gentle cruising I don't think it's necessary. Bad things can always happen, you can ALWAYS trip and catch your head on something not just while skiing...

I think it's about risk assessment, right - I wear a helmet and a body protector while horse riding because I am high up, riding an unpredictable prey animal and going pretty quickly. Moreover the speed control is not entirely in my hands, the horse has a considerable say.. At one point I fell off once EVERYTIME I RODE (difficult horse, don't ask) a helmet is just not optional in that scenario...

If I fall down skiing my mates all cheer as it's such a rare occurance (I once managed 3 years without a fall) and I'm very rarely going particularly fast anyway - so I don't see the point in wearing a helmet. I think I'm more at risk being my usual clumsy self walking around tbh...I don't see many around on the slopes, so I guess I'm not alone?

aj xx

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

you can always rely on Kramer, for the facts..!
basically letting your kids ski without a helmet and armour is nowhere near as bad as letting then cross the road without the same protection.. some of you parents out there should be ashamed wink

i wont even go into the 'most accidents happen at home' bit, as body armour for that will be on sale by mothercare next week Shocked

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magicrichard, it's not like a transceiver because a transceiver can save your OR YOUR FRIEND'S life. i won't go anywhere with someone who isn't wearing a bleeper that i wouldn't go on my own. i don't care whether my mate is wearing a helmet

i would say a helmet is a bit like an avalung - a "nice to have" but not an essential. and whether to have one is entirely a personal choice.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

stevepick, Woah. To be that cynical you must work in advertising.

Personally I've seen two horrific accidents that really demonstrate wearing a helmet is a GOOD THING. The first was my brother-in-law hitting a 50ish lady who was standing directly bellow a blind lip on the inside edge of a narrow and treacherous corner. I didn't see the accident occur but she was on the 2nd day of a holiday and didn't ski again for the rest of the week. The second was a 74 year old lady, she was hit by a 18 yo boy. She was leaning over taking her skis off by a coffee shop when he struck, she was thrown several meters and delaminated his ski on her helmet. Chopper took her off the hill. She had, inter alia, broken ribs & a badly dislocated shoulder. Still recovering but back skiing. If she wasn't wearing a helmet there is no way she'd be alive. (Yes, it's Joyce for those that know....)

Surly you can agree that it's quite sensible to wear a helmet if only for those rare "mishaps". In this thread, it was clear the number of people that have been hit and the frequency of accidents on the piste is increasing as the numbers on the slopes go up. I'm not sure how many were actually helped by wearing a helmet, if any, but if it helps 10% of accidents like the one above they must be a good thing. (Apologies if you participated / read that thread).

So that's at least one argument for wearing a helmet. How many other snowHead

have, or know anyone that has been injured by someone else’s helmet? (can't believe I just wrote that).

So bar humbugs to your selfish act of not wanting to protect what's in front of you. It only takes one freak accident.

I think it’s great that there are kids out there, mainly in the park, that think it’s quite cool to be wearing a helmet. And that’s spread all over the hill. I started off wearing a helmet when I was snowboarding Embarassed

in the park years ago, after a while I started wearing one when I was free skiing and then ALL of the time, no exceptions. I’d be livid if someone interrupted my skiing. And it would be worse if my helmet was at home and may have helped me. Of course I do *understand* that some porn stars don’t use condoms when they’re performing. Me, I prefer to wear protection even when not filming.

So maybe it’s just a government / sports industry conspiracy to make you spend money on a helmet to reduce your risk of injury.

I’m thinking about getting a full-face helmet for those “special” days this winter, not really the best fashion statement but I can’t afford the dentistry. I can, after all, get a wheelchair on the NHS. Twisted Evil

They used to advertise that tobacco was good for you. May I suggest that wearing a helmet all these years may have helped... wink

After all it is free

A few points:

I don't think anyone is criticising people for wearing helmets, what I and a few others seem to object to is being criticised for not wearing one.

My risk of death from published statistics appear to be approximately 6 times greater from driving a car than from skiing, motor racing drivers seem to think that a helmet is essential equipment but I wonder if any of the helmets for all advocates wear a helmet when driving?

The two largest causes of head injuries are road traffic accidents and drinking. I have seen people discuss both driving all night to the alps and how to get away with speeding in one post whilst advocating helmet wearing in other posts. I rarely see anyone state that you should not drink on your skiing holiday or wear a helmet whilst apres skiing. In spite of the fact that alcohol plus icy pavements are a classical recipe for banging your head hard at the kind of velocity where a helmet may help. wink

I would wager a large sum of money that more snowheads will die of alcohol related disease than skiing ones.

Clearly not everyone represents the average risk statistics only tell some of the story and if I was to do downhill racing or lots of jumping in the terrain park I may consider getting a helmet.

Nick L, The BMJ article was discussed on snow heads last year and from memory. a)The end point was very weak with no real indication of the severity of injury the only outcome was whether or not someone was referred to hospital and therefore of dubious significance. b) The actual total number of injuries was quite high amongst helmet wearers but the population of helmet wearers was not defined thus raising the possibilty that wearing a helmet made you more likely to receive an injury.

Kramer, I slightly disagree with the statement

T Bar, you missed my post^^^ Wink

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Wear The Fox Hat, Do you wear your helmet at MK?

I totally respect an individuals right to not wear a helmet but lets face facts ! You are more likely to suffer serious injury in a crash if your head takes the impact and your not wearing a helmet ! Surely nobody on this forum can seriously deny this ? (I'm not asking for perceived attitudes of skiiers wearling helmets being more reckless etc etc just the "if you hit a rock/tree/person and your wearing/not wearing a helmet who would come off worse ? "I have never heard of any occassion / incident where the report said "so and so would probably of survived /been less severly injured if they had not been wearing a helmet !

Rgds

Rich

You know it makes sense.

T Bar, your correction makes sense to me.

parlor anecdotal evidence is a very poor basis for making health decisions I'm afraid. I see what you're arguing, that if we can reduce any risk then we should take all measures to do so, but by that reasoning we should all live underground to reduce the risk of being struck be lightning. We don't do that because it doesn't happen often, similarly the statistics show that head injuries when skiing are just not as common as most people perceive them to be.

Many people quote the "lies, damned lies, and statistics" issue to mean that all statistics are meaningless, this is not the case. Sure statistics can be misleading, which is why we have to rely on our critical appraisal skills to interpret them, however this allows us to know whether things are true or not.

I'm not sure what relevance tobacco has on this issue.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

Type23, by that reasoning, every skier should wear an avalanche beacon whether they are on or off-piste. After all on-piste avalanches are a rare but significant occurence, so we should take every measure to protect ourselves against them?

A snowHead

I don't really care about people who choose not to wear helmets - its their head. I don't expect the French will on mass convert to wearing them. I do however object to all the cowdoo that actually wearing a helmet makes you a worse skier, more reckless, disregarding of other slope users etc.

Do you use releasable bindings or race stock cranked up to 20? Its an available safety option & actually more affordable/functional than a lot of the crap marketed at skiers.

A snowHead

I ice climb too - the amount that comes down from anyone climbing above has to be seen to be belived when the ice is brittle. I am going to buy a helmet for gully skiing as I consider the risks to be high of hitting rocks under the snow if (more likely when) I fall. I doubt that I will wear it for most piste sking though.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Kramer, when does a nasty accident, or the debris from an accident become anecdotal? When you witness something messy, as I'm sure you know, it can have quite a serious effect on your behaviour and your outlook. Take stevepick for example, he was hit by someone wearing a helmet, he now has a helmet phobia. Wink

I do understand what you are saying though, feel free to dismiss my anecdotal evidence. In fact having written that I almost agree with you.

Wearing a helmet:

I don't really care if you wear one or not.

stevepick, (sorry if I seem to be picking on you, sorry Wink

) was calling helmets a type of fashion statement or a fad. There is some distance in this, but that isn't something the marketing department can actually control, for them it's just good fortune.

I'm with Type23 on this.

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Sorry Kramer can't see what point your trying to make? I'm not trying to be rude by the way don't want to descend into flame war Smile

Like I said all I want people to acknowledge is if you hit something and your wearing a helmet your chances are better than someone who isn't wearing a helmet ? In an earlier post seatbelts were mentioned ? I can remember when they first became compulsory to wear and there was a significant proprtion of people (myself included) who said this was an affront to civil liberties and felt safer if the car was to crash and they had to escape without hindrance of seatbelt blah blah blah.............. Today who thinks twice before putting their seatbelt on ? How many lives have they saved over the years ?

Rgds

Rich

p.s As for Avalanche beacons.... I reckon that several lives would be saved each year if people were wearing them when out skiing be it on/off piste. Call it my cautious nature but I have to admit to buying the "RECCO" tags to stick to back of my boots and about the only OFF piste I've done is when I've lost sight off the piste in bad vis and skiied into deep snow Embarassed

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

parlor, anecdotal evidence is evidence of the type "I've seen event X, therefore X must be quite a common occurence". Or-

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Kramer, I understand what you are saying, what you refer to seems to be in terms of a population, but wearing a helmet will make a massive difference to an individual's safety when that individual has a big crash. Also there is no hardship in wearing one, it is not difficult, uncomfortable or especially expensive, so why not?

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mjg, absolutely why not? Like I said, I wear one if I'm going to do a risky activity, if I'm just skiing around then I don't bother.

But the original poster wanted a reason to persuade his wife to change her mind about them and I don't think that there's a good reason to do that. Some people have inferred that to not wear a helmet is reckless, I don't believe that this is the case, based on the rarity of head injuries on the slopes.

stevepick, pointed out that there is a fairly large industry based on manufacturing and selling snowsports helmets, and that people who skied before they were invented didn't suffer a huge epidemic of head injuries, the statistics would seem to back him up. I'm sure that the helmet manufacturers have marketing departments like any other big business, it would be silly to imagine that we are somehow different to everyone else and immune to marketing spin.

My point about on-piste avalanches and avalanche beeps is this, why is it that we don't wear avalanche beeps on piste? They're (relatively) cheap, not difficult (if you use and practice with it regularly), not uncomfortable, and may well save our own or someone else's life. The reason that we don't is because on-piste avalanches are thankfully extremely rare, and it's not really worth the bother for something that most of us aren't likely to see in our skiing career. The same argument could (not necessarily should) apply to helmets and head injuries - ie why bother to protect yourself against something that you are unlikely to come across in your skiing lifetime?

I would hazard that far more harm comes to people from drinking in the evenings than head injuries in resort, perhaps we should stop doing that as well?

After all it is free

Kramer,

Kramer

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I know I am going anecdotal, but (ignoring the stats) it seems to me that an awful lot of skiers I have spoken to have had some form of a bump on the head while skiing.... We may of course be talking about minor injuries, thus never reported. You could argue a minor injury is no big deal, but if a helmet means I dont have a sore head later that night, or I avoid having a 'cut on my nut', well then that isnt a bad reason to have it.

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