 Poster: A snowHead
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I wouldnt join as the repping is overated and I have heard you can meet some really wierd people.
PS Anyone like my first attempt at trolling 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frosty the Snowman, hehe, weird people are much more interesting than normal ones. 
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Mon 20-03-06 21:43; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman, not bad - three spelling mistakes in one sentence, although that's normally a bit of a low hit rate for genuine trolls. BTW surely you of all people can(')t complain about overeated reps, and I've not yet met one who's really wired.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| They read out a disclaimer at the start of each day saying just that, and that you ski with them at your own risk |
I'd be interested to see how that stood up in court. Even with a written, signed disclaimer, they would still have a duty of care for you.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Elizabeth B, I am not clear that they have a duty of care, in the light of the disclaimer. I would be surprised if the Club had not taken legal advice on that. I think it would take case law in the High Court, or whatever the equivalent is in the country where an incident took place, to determine otherwise - it would seem the club's legal adviser does not expect such an outcome. So, unless you have specific legal training in this area, I can't see how you have come to your conclusion.
That said, all reps I have skied with have seemed responsible people.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Nick Zotov, I've had some formal medico-legal training which has parellels with this. Generally disclaimers are not worth the paper that they are printed on as it is too easy for a lawyer to claim that their client either didn't hear it, or didn't understand it, or didn't have the opportunity to ask questions, or was too intimidated by the presence of the rest of the group to question it...
In these cases the consent for going off piste is implied (ie by going along it is expected that you are aware of the dangers), but also implied is the duty of care that the leader of the group has to you. That doesn't mean that they are automatically to blame if something happens to you, but if it is shown that they were negligent then they are likely to be liable. There are two tests for professional negligence AFAIK, which is either does a significant body of professional opinion agree with your actions, or are your actions in keeping with those that a prudent person who is your client would expect.
It is hard to think of a significant professional body which would be prepared to stand up for a ski club rep, as at the moment none of them will vouch for their training, and it remains to be seen how the law would see fit to apply the standard of a prudent client to the ski club reps if something was to go wrong.
I believe that this is the case under British Law, I'm not sure what the case in Europe is, and what I've written above may all just be nonsense as well as it's not in my field of expertise.
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Kramer, I understand what you are getting at. However, we are not talking about me coming to you as a doctor - and you trying to wriggle out of responsibility as a doctor by getting me to sign a disclaimer (not that I am saying you personally would). I can quite understand you being held to be responsible regardless. You have professional skill and knowledge - including the knowledge of which areas you are competent in.
However, let's say we meet up as skiers. I've heard you are a bit of a dab hand as a skier. You say, hold on, I am quite a good skier, but I am no guide. I then say, that even you have told me that you do not have professional guide or instructional recognition, I'll nevertheless go along with you, making my own judgements as I go - as skiers do, regularly, but without all that chat. If we subsequently have an accident, I don't think you are in the same league as a professional medico, trying to evade responsibility with a disclaimer. On the contrary, you have told me that you are not professionally recognized, and I think your insurance company has a good chance of defending you - and recovering costs.
I think that club reps are in a similar position, myself.
But, like you, I am no lawyer, either. That's why the club wouldn't consult us. 
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Nick Zotov, in the scenario that you mention above I'm acting as an amateur as I'm not getting any remuneration, and so standards of professional negligence do not apply to me, however the ski club reps do receive remuneration (in kind with board and lodgings and transport and living allowance), and as a member I pay for the privilege for skiing with them, so professional standards may well apply.
The problem with defending yourself by claiming non-professional status, is that, depending on the circumstances, you may well still be expected to adhere to professional standards of competence, if something goes wrong.
Also the problem with the disclaimer is nothing to do with the professional status or competence of the person giving the disclaimer, it is more to do with the act of giving the disclaimer itself, which is practically worthless. Disclaimers do not override your statuatory rights, neither are they a binding contract, even if signed.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| Nick Zotov..... however the ski club reps do receive remuneration ...... |
Not sure that an allowance for expenses (which from what I have heard may not cover outgoings) can be called "remuneration".
Anyway, neither of us is legally competent in compensation litigation outside the medical profession (and I'm not competent in that, either  ) Presumably the club's advisers are.
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The reps are not employees of the SCGB, and therefore not on the payroll ( have a look at the annual accounts), and the concept of remuneration is therefore not applicable. There are no contracts of employment AFAIAA. They volunteer their time for a couple of weeks per annum.
My understanding is that their accommodation and flights are paid for by the SCGB and any out of pocket sundry expenses are re-imbursed to them. No salaries, no remuneration, no benefits in kind. no contractual relationship.
Kramer's points on disclaimers are however noted, and not being a legal expert in this area, cannot comment. I assume that the Club, will of course, have taken legal advice on this precise matter.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| hibernia wrote: |
| My understanding is that their accommodation and flights are paid for by the SCGB and any out of pocket sundry expenses are re-imbursed to them. No salaries, no remuneration, no benefits in kind. no contractual relationship. |
It really needs a rep to give the definitive answer, but at Sun Peaks/Big White earlier this year the accommodation was provided by the resort & I'm pretty sure they said the resort gave them a per diem allowance (this might not be true for all resorts). They were given an allowance by the SCGB towards their flight (not the full cost of the flight). The reps have to buy their own jackets.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Tim Brown - lets face it, SCGB reps ARE NOT UAGM Mountain Guides, AND as such are not qualified to take members on TRUE off-piste routes i.e. those not in sight of the piste. - as for better local knowledge than members, that could be true if they have been stationed in that resort before but not if they've just qualified and have only been in the resort a few weeks. UAGM Guides usually LIVE in the areas that they guide and are therefore ideally qualified (after 7 years!) to take paying clients off-piste. - I agree with you that members do not pay for any off-piste forays by the rep and welcome the SCGB's new responsible attitude to this by reading out a disclaimer before skiing with members. (Something they did NOT DO in the past).
Is this not the reason why the SCGB is not allowed to rep in ST Anton? 
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You know it makes sense.
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I would be interested to know just what "in sight of the piste" is supposed to mean in this context. I can think of numerous locations in relatively close proximity to a run where you would be mad to ski off piste under certain conditions, and plenty of others that are "within sight" of a piste even if the piste is a mile away as the crow flies.
Surely there is a duty of care - these are led groups. By assuming responsibility to lead a group away from the marked runs (and some group members may have no knowledge whatsoever of the terrain /conditions they are being led into), by indicating in the resort that certain days are set aside for this purpose and encouraging Ski Club members to come along, by inferring at least some knowledge of off piste conditions and terrain on the part of the rep, this disclaimer seems pretty 'shaky ground' to me.
The Ski Club's 'special notice' in the rep information section only advises that group members should be suitably equipped with transceivers etc on off piste days.
In theory can a hypothetical rep, newly arrived in the resort, with zero knowledge of local conditions, a minimum of training, perhaps rather 'average' skiing abilities by local standards, publicise his ski programme, to include off piste sessions, right from day one?
It all seems rather hit and miss. As davidof said elsewhere, this could be a massive lawsuit waiting to happen.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skiologist, TRUE off-piste? Another person with off-pistesnobitis! If you want a UAGM Guide, then go and hire one - I'm told reps will hire one for off-piste days too. As pointed out by someone else, your real problem seems to be that the rep said you weren't good enough to ski off-piste with him.
PG, these are question you need to direct to the SCGB. I'm sure they have clear rules.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| edsilva wrote: |
Kramer, you are confused  . Reps are neither professionals nor employees. SCGB ski groups are not customers- but club members skiing together- as with lots of other clubs that meet for sporting activity.
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It's a blurry line you are drawing there - the club members pay a membership fee, and one of the benefits of membership is skiing in a group with a rep, so in a sense they are paying to ski with the rep (whether they go on a holiday or not, they are paying for the service).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Oh dear I hope no-one is leading the group at the Eosb
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| edsilva wrote: |
| Interestingly the only negative feedback from people who have actualy skier with SCGB groups I can find appears to be from a skier who was advised not to ski off psite with a group as after afew days skiing on piste the rep thought that he would not be suitable- seems very responsible. |
Strangely enough, if you are referring to the feedback about Jackson Hole, I'd say that the negative feedback was not just about him not being allowed to go, but more importantly was about the lack of concern for safety in the back country trip.
I could post comments on discussions I have been sitting in on with reps, or conversations I have over heard between reps, but these were not when I was skiing with them.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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edsilva, I am a member of the Ski Club, but so far I've just not needed to ski with a rep. If I'm skiing on-piste I'm usually skiing with friends, if I'm going to go off-piste then I'll hire a guide.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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All I was pointing out, is that to the best of my knowledge, disclaimers are worthless legally.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Kramer wrote: |
| All I was pointing out, is that to the best of my knowledge, disclaimers are worthless legally. |
Yes agreed but our insurance inspection required more disclaimers in our car park despite the assesesor agreeing that they are worthless
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Nick Zotov, sorry, just caught up with this again.
The reason that I feel that they have a duty of care, is that the ski club provide training for them (which presumably they have to pass). In my training as a mountain leader, I was told that if I have a group out, and another individual "tags onto the group", even though they are not part of the group, legally I have a duty of care to help them if they need it. The only way I can get out of this is to put as much mileage between us...either by my group speeding up, or stopping until the other person is out of sight. Disclaimers are not worth anything.
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boredsurfin, I think more because they may put people off from suing rather than actually protect you if they do sue.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Elizabeth B, in the context of the reps, I think we shall have agree to disagree. It does surprise me that some here are keen to suggest they know more than the club's legal people. Perhaps some some snowheads should become barristers - the job can pay well.
OT, on the mountain leadership thing. I used to be qualified to lead Armed Services parties below the snow line, but I was never MLTB qualified. Leading a party, I came across a couple of blokes stranded between Sca Fell, and Sca Fell Pike. They'd got themselves into a slightly exposed position, and hadn't the ability to go forwards or back. It was in the days before mobile phones, So I offered to lead them out with my party, and they accepted. In the end, we had to teach them abseiling, since they would not scramble down a pitch, even with a top rope. It took half an hour to get them down a pitch that took me 20 seconds or so to scramble down. I was not insured to lead them, but felt I should do so in common humanity. Fortunately, all went well. But that episode was at my risk, I believe.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I never make a judgement based on just one side of the story. It's worth pointing out that this story varies in a way that could be significant from the version posted over on the SCGB forum.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="snowbunny"]edsilva,
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I have had many fantastic days skiing with SCGB groups on and off piste
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These are the reps who are not insured to take folks off piste, and many of whom are not qualified as Mountain Guides. You want me to put my trust in them.
errr.... I think I'll pass, thanks anyway. |
I think that the differences between us are about expectations- I expect to go skiing with a ski club group- You want to be taken (no pun) and to put your trust in somebody else.
Fine- no problem at all.
Almost every line I have skied off piste with the ski club - in Argentiere and Val D'Isere I have also skied with friends or with Mrs Ed- with no one else to 'put my trust in'. I have also skied way off piste and climbed with guides- sometimes things I'd have been happy to do without them- sometimes not- at least for the first time. I've also been more than happy to trek in the Alps, Atlas and Himalayas alone, with friends - and random strangers. I'm quite happy in putting trust in myself and taking some risks.
Do you ski off piste in this way? If so- give the SCGB a go- it can be very good- might even see you there ?
If not then better sticking to instuctors/ Guides.
FWIW there is another catagory of 'qualified person' the Monitor Diplome to ski with off piste- I think many of the Alpine Experience folk have this- neither mountain guide nor ski instructor.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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edsilva, You make some good points, and the Ski Club GB yearly charge, clearly is a worthwhile investment for you. I am happy to take responsibility for my own actions, and can't see any reason to pay their charge. Additionally, they don't staff the resorts I prefer now skiing at, and I'm quite happy with that.
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snowbunny, I am happy you are happy. At last, peace and harmony prevails. Cool 
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You know it makes sense.
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Why I'm glad I'm a member of the Skiclub
When I hurt my knee in Canada in January I was skiing with the ski club rep from Banff and 2 other guys. It was bill ed as a "cruising Blues day". However because no blue skiers turned up and we all were happy to ski on black runs and because there was fresh powder thats what we skied. A verbal agreement with everybody. I had my accident a non spectacular I cant believe you've hurt yourself type of fall and damaged my knee, I knew immediately I had done something serious I was at the back as tail end Charlie the weakest skier going second at the request of the rep. Consequently I was some 30 metres above the rep when I fell. The rep sent the other 2 skiers off to the lift to send for help and she then hiked back to me to render 1st aid etc.
I have to say she was brilliant and did everything by the book crossed skis above my position, space blanket for warmth, spotted shock symptoms and stopped me trying to move. She then came to hospital with me and waited until I was discharge, throughout the 5 days I was stuck in resort she kept in touch by text message throughout the days and made arrangements to meet up for meals, drinks and even cinema until I was flown home. Since I arrived home we have kept in touch to let her know how my recovery is progressing.
I have never had a bad days skiing with a skiclub rep, I have met a wide variety of people through the club some I would ski with agian, some I wouldn't but you get that with any group of skiers. One thing for me is the clincher I would rather ski with a rep than ski alone.
Join the club and give it a try
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FAQ
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