 Poster: A snowHead
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Where is GrahamN when you need him? IIRC he has covered this, but my limited grasp of physics left me unable to keep up.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
| Elston wrote: |
| Pretty sure that you can't turn a ski just using pressure. You turn through rotation, edge or a mixture of edge & rotation. You try to manage pressure but pressure, on its own, doesn't make the skis turn. |
That is my understanding too. |
^ yip - you always need to blend the 3 elements.
I would argue that in deep powder pressure is arguably the main element to be controlled.
The skis are made to turn primarily by transferring weight from one ski to the other.
i.e there is no solid piste for the skis to edge against.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I don't think 'the blending of the three elements' is what Elston was referring to in the reply I quoted, and it wasn't what I was referring to.
I agree that you
| Quote: |
| need to blend the 3 elements |
in a turn but disagree with your view on what happens in deep powder.
IMHO the skis penetrate the snow surface and depending on
the profile of the ski
the bodyweight of the skier,
the speed the skier is travelling at
the density of the snow
sooner or later compact the snow and create a platform on which the skis can be rotated and edged to make a turn.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Kitenski : I think most skiers would struggle to turn a ski using just one of the E,P, or R elements on its own.
As you say at least a *tiny* element of the other 2 is always required.
The real skill is learning how to blend the 3 elements for the turn type (i.e moguls vs carving vs snow plough etc) |
We agree on something 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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D G Orf, pre-carver/parabolic skis were most certainly not parallel sided. You would not have been able to turn them.
My ~ 1993 (?)201cm Rossi 7SKs have about the same sidecut radius as my recently acquired (and properly modern) 201cm Volkl SuperG skis, around 32m or so....
I am looking forward to discovering the joys of bumps on SG skis. I reckon they'll be just like my old SLs, but maybe a tad stiffer.
Yum.
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Well aware of the McConkey article and a proponent of the slide.
What you call pedantry I call a very big difference of opinion.
You presented your take on things :
| Quote: |
I would argue that in deep powder pressure is arguably the main element to be controlled.
The skis are made to turn primarily by transferring weight from one ski to the other.
i.e there is no solid piste for the skis to edge against. |
I presented mine, which is different, and then you told me I was wrong.
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Urrm, pressure of the ski on the snow is just a result of the resultant force from whatever it is you're doing. You can change how that pressure is distributed across the ski with your balance. Even in deep snow if I'm pointing down the fall line I won't start turning if I stand on one ski more than the other and if I'm not the skis will be on edge to an extent (in order to keep standing up)!
Edging in this context to me doesn't mean digging the ski edge into the snow surface but having the ski tipped over and using the bend created in the ski to turn rather than using rotation to physically move the ski round. Ultimately both are using the distribution of pressure against the ski surface to move you round. If you're on piste using edging mostly it should result in a clean carve, off-piste it should be much the same on modern kit, although the 'cleanness' is never going to be as visible and you have to deal with a surface that's more likely to break away. Wide, reverse cambered, tapered skis will still carve in powder because the whole ski becomes "the edge" and the reverse camber is "the sidecut" but with the added advantage that you can slide the ski easily as well. It's very fun to crank a few hard turns at speed in powder and then lay the skis sideways for a big faceshot, you can end up practically parallel with the slope heading straight downhill with both feet out in front.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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if a rank amateur can contribute to this learned (very interesting) discussion, I guess that unless you have extremely bandy legs, any attempt to apply pressure to one of the skis in a snowplough is going to result in the inside edge getting more weight on it. In other words, you can't pressure the ski without also edging it - and if you "pressured it" equally all over by sticking all your weight on that ski and keeping it flat on the snow it would go straight down the fall-line.
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Warren Smith explains why pressure control is very important in powder skiing in this video.
It it is a good explanation - better than mine 
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-videos/10302346/Ski-technique-series-Unlock-your-powder-potential.html
I don't think anyone is saying anything dramatically different in this topic.
They are just getting tied up in the small details.
i.e Is pressure a 'resultant force' ? Or is pressure something the skier can create or absorb ?
(IMHO it can be both depending on the specific scenario).
The real skill is learning how to control & blend the 3 elements (P,E & R) as required for the turn type
i.e moguls vs carving vs snow plough all require that the skis be controlled in different ways.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| I don't think anyone is saying anything dramatically different in this topic. |
Everyone seems to be furiously agreeing with each other!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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From BASIoid manual / bible
Psalm "P1a-12"
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Pressure : Modulating pressure of ski against the snow
Edge : Modulating tilt of the ski on its edge relative to the snow
Rotation : Modulating rotation of the leg (in its hip socket)
It is is important to note the steering elements do not operate in isolation from one another. Every skiing turn, from the most elementary to the most advanced, involves all 3 elements. What distinguishes each turn is the relative amount of each element and the order they are applied. |
i.e
The first thing you do in a powder turn is manage pressure on the ski.
But when carving a turn the first thing you do is edge the ski.
That however is not say the other elements aren't used in both types of turn!
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The imortance of pressure control and the blending of P, E & R as BASI puts it has never been in question.
What has been in question are your other observations and statements. And not just by me.
Thanks for the link to the Warren Smith video.
Great production and great skiing.
I think we're all looking for the same output from ourselves and our students. How we get there is what makes it interesting.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
From BASIoid manual / bible
Psalm "P1a-12"
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Pressure : Modulating pressure of ski against the snow
Edge : Modulating tilt of the ski on its edge relative to the snow
Rotation : Modulating rotation of the leg (in its hip socket)
It is is important to note the steering elements do not operate in isolation from one another. Every skiing turn, from the most elementary to the most advanced, involves all 3 elements. What distinguishes each turn is the relative amount of each element and the order they are applied. |
i.e
The first thing you do in a powder turn is manage pressure on the ski.
But when carving a turn the first thing you do is edge the ski.
That however is not say the other elements aren't used in both types of turn! |
Please explain 'manage pressure on the ski' more clearly, are you putting more pressure on the ski? Less? If you don't change edges, the skis won't turn.
I agree strongly with the diagram describing the different types of turn posted earlier, the better the skier, the higher edge angles are and the less the turn is skidded. This is true regardless of the snow surface being skied, obviously some situations will require more rotation (chutes, moguls), but basically, carving is good, skidding is bad. I had a chat with Hugo Harrison (head coach of the FWT and freeskiing legend) about this, and he marks the freestyle guys who just 'slarve' or 'slash' from feature to feature pretty harshly, he'd much rather see clean edge to edge skiing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Clang !!
Only messing, and I agree with Mr. Harrison.
At times they're glorified power plows. Albeit in 'poo-poo your pants' terrain.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Warren Smith explains why pressure control is very important in powder skiing in this video.
It it is a good explanation - better than mine
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/snowandski/skiing-videos/10302346/Ski-technique-series-Unlock-your-powder-potential.html
I don't think anyone is saying anything dramatically different in this topic.
They are just getting tied up in the small details.
i.e Is pressure a 'resultant force' ? Or is pressure something the skier can create or absorb ?
(IMHO it can be both depending on the specific scenario).
The real skill is learning how to control & blend the 3 elements (P,E & R) as required for the turn type
i.e moguls vs carving vs snow plough all require that the skis be controlled in different ways. |
Pressure isn't a resultant force it's caused by a force being spread over an area. That's the definition of pressure (pressure = force/area). I think the only thing most people took issue with was this statement:
"there are 3 ways to turn a ski (Edge, Pressure and Rotation)"
Clearly to achieve any turning there must be a force (any change of direction is by definition an acceleration and force = mass x acceleration) and hence pressure involved so pressure itself is not "a way to turn the ski" as it exists in all ways to turn a ski. Edging and rotation are means to generate a force and hence pressure. Fine control in harnessing the forces involved is the essence of good skiing.
A better phrasing would be, "there are three ways a skier can affect the way a ski turns, edging, rotation and pressure control".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Mike Pow wrote: |
Clang !!
Only messing, and I agree with Mr. Harrison.
At times they're glorified power plows. Albeit in 'poo-poo your pants' terrain. |
Well, it's essentially just skidding. I was watching the FWT finals this last season on the Bec des Rosses, which is the gnarliest venue around and the commentator was describing Fabio Studer's (insane freesyler) turns as 'slarvy', he wasn't slarving, he was sideslipping! Not saying I would do any better in that terrain, but he certainly lost points there compared to the guys like Reine Barkered who can carve down pretty much anything.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
| What has been in question are your other observations and statements. And not just by me. |
Uhhmm... So please quote which bits your getting up tight about ?
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| Please explain 'manage pressure on the ski' more clearly, are you putting more pressure on the ski? |
^ That original phrase is lifted straight out of the BASI manual (1a-12)
Quoted because some were in disagreement / confusion about the meanings or context
It then goes on
"Pressure control encompasses all of the actions and effects which may be used to vary and control the pressure acting against the ski...."
i.e movements such as leg extension / flexion / unweighting / use of terrain (bump) etc.
In the context of powder skiing that would simply be transferring more weight onto the outside ski and controlling the build up of pressure.
Of course you also need to edge and rotate for the ski to turn - but not in the same way or order you would for a pure carved turn on hard piste.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 19-09-13 21:33; edited 3 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I *guess* if the pressuring alone meant different amounts of drag on each side, then steering would result. Whether by increased friction against the snow on one foot, or by the fact one ski was concave, and the other not - causing a combination of a) different edge curvature and b) differing surface area in contact with the ground.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| What has been in question are your other observations and statements. And not just by me. |
Uhhmm... So please quote which bits your getting up tight about ?
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| Please explain 'manage pressure on the ski' more clearly, are you putting more pressure on the ski? |
^ That original phrase is lifted straight out of the BASI manual (1a-12)
Quoted because some were in disagreement / confusion about the meanings or context
It then goes on
"Pressure control encompasses all of the actions and effects which may be used to vary and control the pressure acting against the ski...."
i.e movements such as leg extension / flexion / unweighting / use of terrain (bump) etc. |
Yep, all good stuff, you need to manage pressure in every turn! I was more requesting clarification about how you could start a turn using solely pressure management. Or even if your post is taken less literally, why pressure management would be more important than edging.
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Mr Pieholeo, it just doesn't work that way though. Certainly an increased drag would result in a turn but in reality it doesn't appear to generate enough force to overcome the other limiting factors.
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this explains why skiing is so bloomin complicated!!! 
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I can't imagine producing much turn just by lifting a ski slightly. It would have to be non zero though, otherwise the universe isn't working properly.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| jimmer wrote: |
| I was more requesting clarification about how you could start a turn using solely pressure management. |
A very basic snowplough is the simplest example of how it can be done.
Again quoted directly from the BASI manual
"snow plough turning is often taught by emphasising pressure control - shifting pressure from one ski to another. However edging and rotation are both already present : In a snow plough the skis are further apart than the hips, thus edging both skis. the legs have also been rotated to produce a plough shape. This snow plough uses all 3 steering elements in a simple way"
FWIW some instructors teach people to make very basic turns in a snowplough by just standing in a plough glide and pressing down into the ground through their left and right big toe. Because the skis must already be on edge in a plough they will turn just from the action of applying pressure (Though as Gillieski pointed out earlier it is better to emphasise the rotation required)
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| why pressure management would be more important than edging. |
In a powder turn pressure management is more important (and occurs first in the sequence of events)
In a carved turn edging is more important (and occurs first in the sequence of events)
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 19-09-13 21:50; edited 1 time in total
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Mr Pieholeo, that entirely depends on the other forces involved! For example the difference between limiting and sliding friction.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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In a plough the skis are already on edge. So there's a difference between 'pressuring an edge' and 'pressuring a base'.
One is like a car with knackered brakes on one side, causing a major swerve to the other side under braking.
The other is like trying to steer a car by getting the passengers to lean left and right. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| jimmer wrote: |
| I was more requesting clarification about how you could start a turn using solely pressure management. |
A very basic snowplough is the simplest example of how it can be done.
Again quoted directly from the BASI manual
"snow plough turning is often taught by emphasising pressure control - shifting pressure from one ski to another. However edging and rotation are both already present : In a snow plough the skis are further apart than the hips, thus edging both skis. the legs have also been rotated to produce a plough shape. This snow plough uses all 3 steering elements in a simple way"
FWIW some instructors teach people to make very basic turns in a snowplough by just standing in a plough glide and pressing down into the ground through their left and right big toe. Because the skis are already on edge they will turn just from this motion (Though as Gillieski pointed out earlier it is better to emphasise the rotation required) |
Because in a snowplough, the ski is already edged, so in a powder turn (unless you are wedging) you need to tip the skis over first, pressuring a flat ski won't do anything, and whilst you obviously need to balance the forces to not fall inside you can actually incline much more in powder, as the platform of snow under your ski will support you at greater angles, at lower speeds than on piste.
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^ 100% : as mentioned the 3 steering elements never operate in isolation from each other.
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You know it makes sense.
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[quote="Haggis_Trap"]
| jimmer wrote: |
| Quote: |
| why pressure management would be more important than edging. |
In a powder turn pressure management is more important (and occurs first in the sequence of events)
In a carved turn edging is more important (and occurs first in the sequence of events) |
Just saying that again, and not explaining it, doesn't make it right. Please show me a video of someone using this flat ski, pressure only powder technique.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Jeeeez - I never said anything about flat skis.
Have said in almost every single post that the elements never operate in isolation and you need to blend all 3 of them
In a powder turn you need to control the pressure building up under each ski. The balance of weight between each ski (roughly 60:40) is key to a good turn (but you also need to rotate and edge). To do it properly requires pressure control throughout the turn.
Many intermediate struggle because they are only used to skiing on hardpacked pistes where you primarily transfer weight from one ski to another (roughly 80:20). Hence they collapse at the waist when snow builds up under the outside ski, losing balance.
What happens in a powder turn if you just roll your feet (i.e edge) as you might on a piste ? Or simply rotate the skis ?
It doesn't work.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 19-09-13 22:03; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
Jeeeez - I never said anything about flat skis.
Have said in almost every single post that the elements never operate in isolation and you need to blend all 3 of them.
In a powder turn you need to control the pressure building up under each ski. The balance of weight between each ski (roughly 60:40) is key to a good turn.
To do it properly requires pressure control throughout the turn. Many intermediates can cope with pressure control and end up collapsing at the waist as snow builds up under the outside ski.
Many intermediate struggle because they are only used to skiing on hardpacked pistes where you primarily transfer weight from one ski to another (roughly 80:20). |
You said you needed to pressure the ski first, which would imply you have not edged it yet, so err, it'd be flat!
I agree, intermediates aren't very good at skiing powder, but I thought we were talking about how to ski powder well (ie with massive edge angles), not how intermediates should do it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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^ without pressure control you cant edge or rotate the ski effectively in powder.
chicken and egg scenario.
and also proof that none of the elements work in isolation ?
going in circles now
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
^ without pressure control you cant edge or rotate the ski effectively in powder.
chicken and egg scenario.
and also proof that none of the elements work in isolation ?
going in circles now |
Well, we've reached an impasse mainly because you are backtracking on things you have said before, like 'The skis are made to turn primarily by transferring weight from one ski to the other' or 'you don't carve in powder'. But anyway, I love to carve in powder, if you don't, maybe you should learn.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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not backtracking on anything (read my previous posts)
being pedantic : can you edge your skis in powder without first controlling the pressure build up under the skis ?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
not backtracking on anything (read my previous posts)
being pedantic : can you edge your skis in powder without first controlling the pressure build up under the skis ? |
Well, when your skis are flat at the end of the old turn, there's no pressure, so yes.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
| at the end of the old turn, there's no pressure |
in deep snow this doesn't happen automatically.
the pressure needs to be actively controlled on each ski for the whole turn.
as soon as you edge the skis, or rotate them, then some pressure builds up (when in powder).
which came first ? Chicken or the egg ?
hopefully we can at agree that none of the 3 elements operate in isolation ?
but they do occur in different ratios for different types of turn ?
the exact sequence can be debated...
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Quote: |
| at the end of the old turn, there's no pressure |
in deep snow this doesn't happen automatically.
the pressure needs to be actively controlled on each ski for the whole turn.
as soon as you edge the skis, or rotate them, then some pressure builds up (when in powder).
which came first ? Chicken or the egg ?
hopefully we can at agree that none of the 3 elements operate in isolation ?
but they do occur in different ratios for different types of turn ?
the exact sequence can be debated... |
Which came first? The edge change, because that's the start of the turn and without it there's no pressure, or direction change. In powder a lot of the time there is very little pressure on the skis in the transition, but if you change edges the ski will still change direction.
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under a new name, ok to say parallel is not accurate only really old skis pre about 1850 had zero side cut but pre 1980 there was almost no sidecut, to get the skis to carve required a lot more strength, since about 1990 the parabolic ski with significantly larger side cut has come into favour as with this ski it is very easy to initiate a turn, I think at the back of my garage somewhere are a set of old 1960's or earlier skis that once belonged to my mum, one day I shall stick a set of verniers on them and measure the sidecut.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, i would grant you pre 1850 that sidecut may have been non-existent but any ski I have skied on, even those pre-dating my arrival (I have skied on kit dating from around 1955 f'r instance) have had a sidecut around that which I refer to.
Parabolics only really went mainstream around 1994 although I believe Elan launched the first carver in 1991. I have to say that I don't recall that happening that early, but my memory is not perfect.
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FAQ
