 Poster: A snowHead
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I note the qualification on one of the sites
" Who is SnoWhere for?
It’s a transceiver for the rest of us.
If you have no intention of buying an avalanche transceiver, yet still occasionally leave the groomed pistes to explore deep snow within the controlled area of a ski resort then SnoWhere is for you.
Who is SnoWhere not for?
Adventurers leaving controlled areas.
If you ride outside the bounds of ski resorts or hike into non-lift served backcountry then SnoWhere is not recommended for you. Riding outside the bounds of controlled ski areas should only be done in the company of professional mountain guides or by avalanche safety-trained, experienced skiers/snowboarders with appropriate safety equipment."
Aaargh. Words fail me.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Megamum wrote: |
| Steilhang, well I guess the victim could use their mobile emitting at a microwave frequency to melt their way out of the ice |
Ok, now we are talking! That is a patentable idea.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| Steilhang, well I guess the victim could use their mobile emitting at a microwave frequency to melt their way out of the ice |
Ok, now we are talking! That is a patentable idea. |
Hmmm, microwave you say. Could rustle up one of them little Christmas puds while waiting for the brandy...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Steilhang wrote: |
| Megamum wrote: |
| Steilhang, well I guess the victim could use their mobile emitting at a microwave frequency to melt their way out of the ice |
Ok, now we are talking! That is a patentable idea. |
Such a daft/nonsense idea that the USPTO would definitely award that patent.
I'm going to patent baked beans and onions for the purposes of creating fart gas to melt your way out of an avy. USPTO granted one for capturing that to make fuel to propel a rocket. But my idea is distinct enough that it's not prior art.
Both are more likely to get me out of avalanche debris than a smartphone with a battery that died shortly after lunch time.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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andy,
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| But my idea is distinct enough that it's not prior art |
I have spent a significant amount of my time over the last year knocking down a patent on the idea of sending voice data over the internet... prior art doesn't seem to matter at all these days 
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livetoski, yes, but can I listen to music with it while being saved?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Steilhang,
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yes, but can I listen to music with it while being saved?
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you could put a couple of tin cans on each end and talk to your mate trying to rescue you though, result 
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livetoski, result indeed. So many good ideas coming out of this.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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couple at each end? conference call 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think that the sheer weight of all the avalanche safety gear is actually causing avalanches.
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You know it makes sense.
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Best avalanche app would be a GPS enabled alarm that goes off when you're crossing ropes and reminds you how many people have died in avalanches in that area, what your aspect is and the avy rose for that aspect, along with current temp gradient info from nearby weather stations. Add clinometer and contour maps.
Now that's something useful even if it does have the potential to be misused as a green light. Anyone know of anything getting close?
A wifi hotspot utilising app is a recipe for disaster - everyone's obviously got far beefier phone batteries than me if they think that would work in cold temps all day.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| And let's not forget rescuing your new skis before you start sweeping for your buddy... http://www.resqski.com/ |
Why would you do that?
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Doug
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Gravity,
5 simple reasons not to use a smart phone application for avalanche rescue.
1. Not compatible with existing international 457kHZ standards for avalanche beacons. Rescue services have no idea what system you are running.
2. Mobile phones can interfere with normal avalanche beacons.
3. Smart phone battery life is poor, especially in the cold with WIFI or GPS running all day.
4. Best to keep your mobile phone on a separate battery (so you can always call for help in emergency if required)
5. Every group member would need to be running the same application. Application therefore clearly encourages punters to ski off piste without a beacon.
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1. is important, but rescuers already use several equipment to localize victims. even the totally imperfect recco "death searcher" system is used as standard equipment. I think mobile search could at least be an alternative. But the best way that a phone should have an add on or something.
2. Nearly everything interferes with 475 Khz! even a snowscooter. That's why we should consider to leave it, as already stated, "old donkey technical equipment".
3. very doubtfull statement because in which conditions?, which applications were running? did you call like 10 times? how old was your battery?...etc.. And you now than as well as an engineer that alkaline batteries aren't that fantastic in extreme environments.
I did some testing as i said, had no trouble with batteries at all. tested in -15C, 8hours of skiing. Everything else was shut off exept the beacon. Must admit: if GPS is running all day, it is a problem. But since its not the case in at least 2 systems, i don't see the problem. I think technology cannot be stopped. Don't feel silly if in like a couple of years it will be a common thing to use.
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... because this is a safety device and someones life may depend on it.
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True, but like most of us freeriders make sometimes bad decisions out there, based on the fact, if we like it or not, we feel safer with a beacon. The beacon has become a holy sacred religion, which alpineknowledge should be the "religion" instead. My Beacon actually failed on some practise runs. That's is why i'm not seeing a beacon longer as the holy search method. check out some beacon manufactures, they don't have a high profile, just a few engineers together wich are producing beacons manually. I'd rather have a piece of equipment supporting me from companies like Samsung or Apple.
As a electric engineer myself i think it's very doubtful that modern electronics can provide us nearly anything yet we still use old technology. Ofcourse lower frequecies like 475Khz are better in the aspect of range and so in comparisson with higher freqs. But it's like 20 years later now and Wifi has quit a good range as well. good enough. as you know it's a LAN and not a PAN. that means something.
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you may not be aware of this but 2.45GHz is the frequency that is used by microwave ovens. Why? Because that is one ofthe frequencies at which absorption by water molecules in the food is particularly efficient.
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I am aware of that, and i think it's a wrong way to conclude things in an electronical perspective. Since it's a totally DIFFERENT thing.
Wifi, bluetooth, 3G and so are completely different signals, which have a complete different effect on it's surroundings than microwave has.
In one test my friend dug a hole, threw my phone in it. We waited for like 4 hours. I searched it and had within a few minutes, i had it back. No melting down or what so ever
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A wifi hotspot utilising app is a recipe for disaster - everyone's obviously got far beefier phone batteries than me if they think that would work in cold temps all day.
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You don't know that, that is what you assume. don't make it the truth.
But i leave with it here, since my goal was to find here others who had actually tested it. And could tell something about it from their experiences.
Thank you at least for all your reactions.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| feef wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| And let's not forget rescuing your new skis before you start sweeping for your buddy... http://www.resqski.com/ |
Why would you do that? |
Earth humour. Keep up.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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^ Gravity which part of "your app sucks" did you not understand
In reply..
1. Everyone using the same standard for avalanche beacons means that there is no confusion when rescuers & other groups arrive. There are obvious reasons for everyone using the same protocol!
2. 457KHZ was allocated as the specific frequency band for avalanche beacons because that frequency of wave propagates through snow well. It is also a "quiet" frequency of the busy airwaves where interference from TV / Radio / Wifi / Bluetooth is low. RF interference from other electronic devices can never be totally eliminated even at other frequencies. Using WIFI for avalanche rescue is dumb as the frequency is not dedicated to avalanche rescue (basically other WIFI hotspots or phones would become your sources of noises!)
3. According to EU regulations a beacon should be able to transmit for 200 hours. No smart phone battery will ever last for 8 days!
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 3-07-13 12:47; edited 2 times in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Gravity wrote: |
. That's is why i'm not seeing a beacon longer as the holy search method. check out some beacon manufactures, they don't have a high profile, just a few engineers together wich are producing beacons manually. I'd rather have a piece of equipment supporting me from companies like Samsung or Apple.
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I see the point you are making that it is at least a valid exercise to test and evaluate these apps but are you serious about this?
That would be the Apple who made the world's first phone that didn't actually work as a phone when you held it up to your head? Samsung and Apple engineers might be very clever but I'd still rather buy a Russell Hobbs toaster (I'm not posh enough for Dualit) than a web-enabled smart toaster from either of them.
The great pro re beacons is that they are relatively limited unfancy tech but developed to exacting standards, and where they have experienced problems it's usually been down to firmware rather than engineering. I know some patrollers still run F1s as the gold standard in avoiding possible failure factors.
As you say there is a halo effect re "gear" and having the kit is no fast track for knowledge or a conservative mentality, but I don't see how smartphone tech could in any way be superior in addressing these heuristic problems other than in the" bloody big spike in a steering wheel is a better idea than a seatbelt for safer driving" sense.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
3. Smart phone battery life is poor, especially in the cold with WIFI or GPS running all day.
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3. very doubtfull statement because in which conditions?, which applications were running? did you call like 10 times? how old was your battery?...etc.. And you now than as well as an engineer that alkaline batteries aren't that fantastic in extreme environments.
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Useful to know how an ARM device actually works, and 99% of the users wouldn't be able to say any way. Most of the apps will be totally idle, doing nothing more than using up a bit of RAM. Shed loads of "apps" autostart, use RAM and the user wouldn't even know. The only ones that would be applicable in this case would be those you've purposefully started to do something in the background... so that'll be the "beacon" app, Endomondo/MyTrack/etc. ski tracking GPS app, etc. Plus since WiFi is running (or even 3G), apps that try to phone home (Google Play, Appstore, etc.),...
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I did some testing as i said, had no trouble with batteries at all. tested in -15C, 8hours of skiing. Everything else was shut off exept the beacon.
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I've skied with several phones. My old one the battery conked out answering a phone call deciding where we were going to meet up for lunch. The battery recovered during lunch back to 80%. My current phone in standby, GPS, Wifi, 3G, Bluetooth all off (I use a real Garmin for GPS when on the mountain), lasted longer, but with WiFi or Bluetooth on, there's no way in hell I'd rely on that. Might turn it on for 5 minutes during coffee stop. My camera managed about 2 pictures before giving up, and miraculously the battery also got back 80% of its charge over lunch.
Meanwhile... 457kHz transceivers running AA (or whatever) batteries, will be working in beacon mode for DAYS. And Falcon trackers running off a single tiny button cell will last for WEEKS.
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andy, something I have wondered about the battery life in transceivers.......is the expected lifespan of the battery given only applicable when it is new, or is there a minimum lifetime that has to still apply when the units indicate that their batteries need changing?
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Gravitys beacon idea, hmm, nein danke.
BUT with a bit of work, consider the following.
If you could pair a regular tranceiver to a smartphone over bluetooth and then joined multiple searchers together and process the information coming from the transceivers, theoretically you should be able to get a faster, and more accurate location of the buried, particularly in multiple burial situations.
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^ Mammut already did a similar thing with W-Link. No mobile phone required - just a 2nd 800kHz signal frequency for the beacons to communicate. Works well if everyone is using the same beacon.
http://beaconreviews.com/transceivers/specs_barryvoxpulse.asp
The W-Link information is also used by the Pulse and the ARVA Link to help identify transmitters when searching for multiple victims (i.e., in addition to receiving the standard beep-beep from the transmitters, they transmit and receive serial number information on the W-Link which helps distinguish the transmitters).
Certainly Mammut is proud of the uniqueness of the vitals data. I think the feature is valuable for a fleet (e.g., a backcountry ski service, snowmobile tours, etc) where all members of a party wear Pulse transceivers and everybody is in the same Region. And there are no downsides to this feature. However, I personally see only a small benefit in the vitals data—the Pulse would easily get five stars on BeaconReviews.com without this feature.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Megamum, not fully sure what you mean there, but the bit about the units indicating when batteries need changing is very much dependent on the type of battery used. Voltage drop off for NiCd, NiMH, etc is very rapid compared to your bog standard duracell (plus the actual voltage is different anyway), which boogers up the detection, so it can go from an apparent 80% to dead very quickly indeed. Oh and that's before compensating for temperature. I won't comment on LiIon, since the way we use them is to only tickle to top few percent of the charge.
Either way, for a safety device, if it doesn't have all bars lit, I'd change the batteries for fresh ones. There's plenty of other kit you can use the partially used ones in.
edit: and use the type of batteries the devices says to use. Precisely because its battery checker is calibrated for that type.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Wed 3-07-13 13:29; edited 1 time in total
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| Megamum wrote: |
| andy, something I have wondered about the battery life in transceivers.......is the expected lifespan of the battery given only applicable when it is new, or is there a minimum lifetime that has to still apply when the units indicate that their batteries need changing? |
^ Measuring battery life is hard... Basically the output voltage remains flat at 1.8V then plummets rapidly towards the end of a battery's life. This makes detection of remaining battery life a tricky task. Battery life also degrades in the cold (and then returns once the battery is warmed up)
If your beacon is displaying less than 50-60% battery life then best to change them.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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andy, I think bog standard Duracell ultra power cells sound the way forwards then, then run them through the top half of the battery life as Haggis_Trap, suggests. I guess that should get you multiple days of use out of one set of batteries if they are turned off when not in use.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Megamum, way more than that. Several ski trips I think?
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^ The EU specification requires 200+hrs transmission per set of batterys.
If a ski day is 8 hours then that is 25 days.
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You know it makes sense.
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Haggis_Trap, Well there you go. Still reckon there would be mileage in converging the comms system so it wouldn't matter if you had a mix of brands (as long as the data was standardised.
Can see why you'd want vitals though... prioritise finding and extracting those with vital signs over those without - bit ghoulish perhaps and you may call ethics if you could somehow differentiate between who was under which half ton of snow (a 'do i dig for my friend or for a stranger first?' kind of thing... nasty moral maze that one)
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Richard_Sideways, a kind of software triage system? I think the lawyers are going to love this!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Megamum wrote: |
| andy, I think bog standard Duracell ultra power cells sound the way forwards then, then run them through the top half of the battery life as Haggis_Trap, suggests. I guess that should get you multiple days of use out of one set of batteries if they are turned off when not in use. |
I used to try to conserve batteries by turning off at lunch but since forgetting once to turn back on don't do this. The result is sometimes beeping many hours after finishing skiing. Despite this I'd say it would be exceptional not to get at least 20 ski days out of a set of regular alkalines before swapping out (& I do check level each time I turn on).
New batteries every trip would be more than conservative enough for most.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Richard_Sideways, Think I've commented before - mistress/fancy man buried at 50cm, spouse at 4m? WWSHD?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thankfully technology is deemed morally neutral by the courts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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But given that the vitals functionality alreada exists, Richard_Sideways, ...?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| under a new name wrote: |
| But given that the vitals functionality alreada exists, Richard_Sideways, ...? |
AFAIK the vitals functionality exists, but it doesn't identify the wearer, just which is most lively.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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well under a new name, IMHO the living take priority over the dead, so in a multiple burial (and its a matter of record how many people die in avalanches of the injuries they sustain in the fall rather than suffocation) knowing who is alive and who has died is a very important piece if information. You can always look at it from the other perspective, if you see 2 burials, one stable, one clearly in trouble, you can prioritise rescue to the party whos injured.
As for the 'Sophies Choice' game... If I were capable of prioritizing, then family would come first, and I don't believe anyone who says they wouldn't do the same.
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^ The Mammut W-Link performs 2 functions
1) Allows individual beacons to be identified via a unique code. This makes the masking process for multiple burials more reliable... Assuming of course the whole group is assuming modern Mammut beacons.
2) Life signs function. In theory allows victims that are still breathing to be dug up first, however the technology for this is dubious and many professionals recommend switching it off.
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Shame on the Snøg Avalanche Buddy mobile phone application.
They deleted my '5 reasons why it is a bad idea' from their you tube comments.
Hopefully anyone goggling them will now find this page in the first hits
http://www.youtube.com/all_comments?v=Eb9CmZiQ_7k
(they marked it as spam - which is ironic as the user Gravity (aka Bart Friederichs) made his 1st post here to tell us about the app)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, not deleted, but they aren't shown by default. I can't click the 'not spam' link for some reason, but I can show the comments and have upvoted them at least.
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^ Cheers.
Snøg Avalanche Buddy (Bart Friederichs / Gravity) has also tried to block previous negative feedback from other you tube users
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FAQ
