Although I posted a load of grass skiing crashes as a joke that looks a lot closer to actual skiing than these at least you can use them away from cars, hard narrow surfaces and twigs and stones are not a danger. While it may be a useful tool to remove the heel push of many intermediate skiers good carving requires aggressive tip pressure and edge angles both of which do not seem to be achievable by your freestyle skier and coach on these wheeled snowlerblades.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
narc, I have tried grass skiing and found that they were really sensitive to anything that would jam the tracks, the relatively large wheels on these things look to me as if they would be better. I don't use aggressive tip pressure to carve turns but I would expect to get much bigger edge angles to make the turn shapes shown in the video, even on slalom skis, it would be good to see a video of them adjusted to have a longer turn radius.
I have also known people who did street luge, they didn't seem to get thrown in jail very often.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
rjs wrote:
narc, I have tried grass skiing and found that they were really sensitive to anything that would jam the tracks, the relatively large wheels on these things look to me as if they would be better. I don't use aggressive tip pressure to carve turns but I would expect to get much bigger edge angles to make the turn shapes shown in the video, even on slalom skis, it would be good to see a video of them adjusted to have a longer turn radius.
I have also known people who did street luge, they didn't seem to get thrown in jail very often.
I had a few conversation with Horst Locher who was heavily involved in promoting rolling tread grass skis in the eighties and started it at the UC Bryce resort. Grass skiing has been losing its popularity for a number of reasons one being that they are high maintenance. If you don't pressure clean them with water mixed with a detergent after each day of use they will become very slow and jam. The other main reason is that they are not easy to control for an average skier. As the youtube video from an event in Sestriere shows even competitive skiers have big problems riding them.
Mitch got so hooked up to rollercarving that I decided to leave my prototype with him so he can give it a better go. When he is back from the US from a Red Bull event he will do more riding at a higher speed and get one of his mates follow him on a mountain bike with a go pro camera.
As far as the angles are concerned they are a function of speed and this is what Mitch wrote to me:
"After a couple of runs down approximately one kilometre of bitumen, I was comfortable and
loving it. I noticed that with very little speed, I was able to go from short radius to long
carving radius turns and really push out of each turn and into the next. On snow this would
require quite a bit more speed and a lot more area."
He also said to me that the fact that similar effects can be achieved on rollercarvers at a lower speed than on the snow may help people who learn how to carve. Also, hard surface is far less forgiving than snow so the fact that you can perform turns at a lower speed may not be such a bad thing. Speaking of the surface, I should have another prototype next week which I am going to try on grass. I could not have really done it with the one that I showed in this forum last year since it didn't have enough ground clearance. I tried it on a dirt road though with a layer of gravel. My daughter tried longboarding on the same surface but it was too rough for her while I didn't have a problem.
nosnowski, I've been thinking a lot about this and I've read and waited for others to de-construct your premiss . . . AND no-one has . . .
OK, I'll be up front and say it's utter 'pants' . . . a euphemism for you are talking out of yer bum . . . and here's why.
'Carving' is a dynamic interaction between the force inserted (however poorly) into a ski and how that interacts with the quality of the snow surface and the pitch of the slope . . . From what I can see, your device has a fixed castor and camber between the wheel and the ski (equivalent) and thus has no mechanical means of moving the force insertion point within the mechanism. All you have here is a 'Park and Ride' system that in no way is equivalent to "carving and will do more to destroy a skiers technique/skill than enhance it . . . which is far more likely a reason a 'professional skier' looks so crap on it than saying 'he had man flu'
The more I think about this I come to realise that there is a REAL solution to this and it already exists and will be easy to implement . . . a tool with variable castor/camber dependent on user input . . .
Just put a set of bindings on a couple of skateboards and you will have something that will approach the response of skis to user input far better than the shoite in the OPO vid
Does anyone actually go to school any more and learn about mechanical systems and the interaction of forces? If they did we wouldn't be subject to and you would know not to subject us to this level of elementary mechanical ineptitude. . .
I'd say go back to the drawing board . . . but first go back to school.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Masque wrote:
nosnowski, I've been thinking a lot about this and I've read and waited for others to de-construct your premiss . . . AND no-one has . . .
OK, I'll be up front and say it's utter 'pants' . . . a euphemism for you are talking out of yer bum . . . and here's why.
'Carving' is a dynamic interaction between the force inserted (however poorly) into a ski and how that interacts with the quality of the snow surface and the pitch of the slope . . . From what I can see, your device has a fixed castor and camber between the wheel and the ski (equivalent) and thus has no mechanical means of moving the force insertion point within the mechanism. All you have here is a 'Park and Ride' system that in no way is equivalent to "carving and will do more to destroy a skiers technique/skill than enhance it . . . which is far more likely a reason a 'professional skier' looks so crap on it than saying 'he had man flu'
The more I think about this I come to realise that there is a REAL solution to this and it already exists and will be easy to implement . . . a tool with variable castor/camber dependent on user input . . .
Just put a set of bindings on a couple of skateboards and you will have something that will approach the response of skis to user input far better than the shoite in the OPO vid
Does anyone actually go to school any more and learn about mechanical systems and the interaction of forces? If they did we wouldn't be subject to and you would know not to subject us to this level of elementary mechanical ineptitude. . .
I'd say go back to the drawing board . . . but first go back to school.
Masque,
I am afraid that you have no idea what you are talking about. The device takes advantage of a pivot caster which reacts to the pressure applied by tipping on the edge and inclination/angulation which is counteracted by a spring mechanism that gives you a bit of rebound. This mechanism changes the turning radius in a similar way as side cut and reverse camber do in a carving ski in response to the edge pressure. The basic principle is quite well known, search for T-board on youtube and you can educate yourself.
Many people tried using skateboard wheel assemblies for simulating ski but the trouble is that such a ski simulator doesn't work very well on four wheels and in addition you can get wheel flutter or speed wobbles when you go a bit faster. In my case this effect is dampened by a special design of the rear wheel assembly that turns in sync with the front pivot caster by means of a steering mechanism. You can read about these problems and ways to handle them in these two papers (obviously if you are capable of understanding the mathematics in the latter):
Kauzlarich J.J., Bruning T.E. and Thacker J.G. “Wheelchair caster shimmy II: Damping”, Journal of Rehabilitation Research and Development Vol. 37 No. 3, May/June 2000.
I can also tell you that this device has been examined by the German branch of the European Patent Office who I suppose have pretty good mechanical engineering experts. For someone who is not even able to see how it works you have quite strong opinions. Mitch who tried it wrote this:
"As with a ski, it took me a couple of turns, literally, to find the balance point and how to close
and elongate my trajectory. I was amazed to find that within minutes my natural skiing
ability took over and enabled me to use the Rollercarver in a fashion so similar to skiing it
was uncanny.
After about 15 minutes on a steady slope in a Falls Creek car park, I found myself confident
and wanting to find a larger slope to really give them a go. I went out into the car
park/fringes of the main road and headed down. I was elated. Immediately I was able to
string turns together, both short and long radius.
The large diameter pneumatic wheels on the bitumen felt like carving turns on perfectly
groomed snow. I found I got great feedback from the Roller carver and was quickly able to
identify my age old habit of being able to turn to the left better than right. On snow I am able
to overcome this by cheating a little and sliding the ski. On the Roller Carver on bitumen this
isn’t possible so I needed to correct myself and apply textbook technique to get my right turn
better. As soon as I did, I was grinning from ear to ear as the Roller Carver enabled me to
correct and begin matching perfect turns.
I noticed straight away that the muscle groups used for carving turns on snow were all being
employed in exactly the same fashion on the Rollercarver. Even upper body positioning was
naturally in the same position as on snow. Being in ski boots and in a ski binding I was right
at home straight away on the Roller Carver and was able to put them on and remove them in
an almost identical fashion to skis.
After a couple of runs down approximately one kilometre of bitumen, I was comfortable and
loving it. I noticed that with very little speed, I was able to go from short radius to long
carving radius turns and really push out of each turn and into the next. On snow this would
require quite a bit more speed and a lot more area."
and this is what one of the top Austrian instructors who worked with their national team wrote to me:
"I am once more impressed. Especially by the pull and acceleration out of the turn. You can see
how the knee roll and the tightening of the turn work together which makes it look quite similar to what we do in a clean carved turn on easy terrain."
I have the impression that it's not me who needs to go back to school and I can bet that I have more education than you do.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
ansta1, No he's satisfied my questions but it's still clear he's a answer for an un-asked for question and a product that could only be used on a closed road so finding a safe environment to use them is going to be a quest to find the fabled gold rocking horse dump . . . as for education . . . he's the one wasting his by creating white elephants.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Quote:
Professional freestyle skier and coach Mitch Smith carving down the main resort road at Falls Creek down under
That was seriously boring
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Masque wrote:
ansta1, No he's satisfied my questions but it's still clear he's a answer for an un-asked for question and a product that could only be used on a closed road so finding a safe environment to use them is going to be a quest to find the fabled gold rocking horse dump . . . as for education . . . he's the one wasting his by creating white elephants.
You may not like this idea but do your homework before you try making authoritative statements. Whether I waste my time or not remains to be seen. Even if it stops where it is, I am more than satisfied that I have a device that I can use for off season workout. After publishing this video I have received quite a few requests for evaluation, including three from UK instructors. I have also been asked to provide an evaluation device for EU ski clubs, US racers and a bunch of landkiters.
If you expect exactly the same experience as you get while skiing this is definitely not for you. The whole thing is more of a workout and it's all about kinematics and balance. It gives you a pretty good idea what carving is about and you don't need a 1 km sloping road to do it. I do my workout in a slightly sloping car park just over 100m long and skate push uphill and prefer it to jogging. As you can see from Mitch's comments even a good skier can benefit from it since the only way to turn is to tip on the edge and incline or angulate. This device is quite ruthless in picking up technical mistakes. If you care to watch the full video you will notice that Mitch only slightly goes off balance (3 times) when he initiates the right turn i.e. exactly as he wrote. The snow is far more tolerant of technical mistakes than the road. One common problem that this device will quickly pick up is any tendency to form the A-frame. You may find instructional videos of Harald Harb on one of his basic exercise of tipping the inside ski to initiate the turn (whether you like his style or not, you can't deny that he is a very good technical skier). Rollercarvers almost force you to initiate the turn this way.
As far as the surface is concerned, there is a company specialising in mountain bike trails who are looking at ways of building suitable trails and an there's also an Austrian ski lift company with a suitable portable rope tow interested in my little project.
There are also quite a few existing grass skiing facilities and this gear will be shipped to one of those for testing. The issue is exactly the same as with ski slopes i.e. the whole infrastructure is purpose built and you don't ski in London, do you? If this takes off it is obviously not going to be anywhere near as big as skiing but I can tell you that it's much more fun than training on a deck simulator like this one http://youtube.com/v/3F7ikmTimcU (and you may be surprised, there are quite a few of those around the world and people use them). Also, check the number of longboarding videos on youtube from around the world. This shows that people can find suitable roads to do it.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
I think this is sort of a cool idea although you may wish to hire someone for your PR
But there's 6 (?) indoor snowdomes in the UK and one about 30 min train + 10 min taxi from London, so I'm not sure how appealing it would end up being over here.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
If the feel is right I'd much rather 'rollercarve' than ski in a fridge
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
driz wrote:
I think this is sort of a cool idea although you may wish to hire someone for your PR
But there's 6 (?) indoor snowdomes in the UK and one about 30 min train + 10 min taxi from London, so I'm not sure how appealing it would end up being over here.
I have no doubts that a snowdome is more fun. However, it's much more expensive to run than a patch with smooth grassy surface which you can even have in a remote town where no one would ever build a snowdome. Also, the energy required to cool it and freeze the water is not getting any cheaper. I wonder how much you pay for your snowdome experience. As with everything rollercarving is just another potential option. One of the reasons that it has created some interest among lower level ski resort is that with feeble winters, often beginning after Xmass holidays, they miss on a lot of business. They try to make up for it by expanding summer activities and offering mountain biking, horse riding, golf, ziplines etc. to attract more people and use their infrastructure. Even if you can get a few dozens people a day to do rollercarving you will make quite a few bucks on accommodation, meals etc.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
nosnowski, Do they have release bindings ?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
rjs wrote:
nosnowski, Do they have release bindings ?
sure, they do, Marker Squire. They also have simple brakes that you use in conjunction with your ski poles.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
A new video from Mitch. This time it was shot from the back of a utility truck on a steeper slope.
nosnowski, OK . . . so looking at the product realistically . . . how do you expect a small diameter plastic compound wheel with little or no tread pattern to perform on anything but a 'metalled' surface . . . FFS I've crashed an MTB on grass far too many times simply because even the best bike rubber has the friction coefficient of a greased weasel on pasture
Basically you have created something that is limited to a hard and relatively smooth surface slope . . . no problem . . . street luge is popular and could clearly share a common location . . . but then we come to braking. Your product can ONLY carve. Unless you are suggesting that you have some sort of lateral vector adjustment control? Let alone any sort of adequate braking.
Then of course, if you are going to use these things at any speed on a hard surface you are going to need a good crash helmet and leathers + armour . . . from personal experience that's going to put an equipment premium of about $3,000 for good equipment on top of the Roller carver price
Your premiss that these things can be used on an MTB trail is ludicrous . . . a <4" wheel is not going to follow any MTB downhill course. . . and the jumps will be very entertaining
You have created an extraordinarily narrow focussed piece of equipment with limited "PRACTICAL" application . . . It's clever . . . but useless in the real world as all your videos demonstrate. If you add up all the cost of your tool and the kit you need to protect yourself from it, you're approaching the cost of heading to the opposite hemisphere and training on the real stuff.
Now take your head out of your fundament and get realistic about your product.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
The latest video of Mitch looks fabulous. And much improved.
We have plenty of quiet roads like that around my way and in the off-season I would much rather be rollercarving for miles in the open air than lapping the fridge.
I understand Masque's safety concerns but is it really that much more dangerous than cycling / need that much more safety equipment than cycling?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
is it really that much more dangerous than cycling / need that much more safety equipment than cycling?
Yes!
On a bike you can brake to slow down gently without weavign into the road. You can also jam on the brakes and come to a realativly quick stop.
Mike Pow, What we have is yet another wonderful answer to a question no-one asks and has no commercial application without some significant upgrades to make it usable in the real world. As for getting it past any liability assessment for use in a commercial application . . . good luck with that. Any private purchaser will be breaking any number of road use laws if they ride it on the open road. We see this sort of 'mad scientist' chasing a rabbit down the hole experiment all the time . . . but chasing a dream also means a healthy dose of realistic practical application . . . business studies qualification is a good place to start.
I've been down the road on my аrѕе way too many times to dismiss the need for leathers and more than a cycle helmet at much above running pace on these things.
They are a clever White Elephant that not even me, who owns or has ridden some of the weirdest kit out there, could be tempted to put money on the counter for . . . a couple of weeks in Chile or New Zealand at a race camp would be far more cost effective.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
New improved video, bigger wider road, steeper hill, pro with even more experience, it still looks dull as ditchwater.
nosnowski, OK . . . so looking at the product realistically . . . how do you expect a small diameter plastic compound wheel with little or no tread pattern to perform on anything but a 'metalled' surface . . . FFS I've crashed an MTB on grass far too many times simply because even the best bike rubber has the friction coefficient of a greased weasel on pasture
Basically you have created something that is limited to a hard and relatively smooth surface slope . . . no problem . . . street luge is popular and could clearly share a common location . . . but then we come to braking. Your product can ONLY carve. Unless you are suggesting that you have some sort of lateral vector adjustment control? Let alone any sort of adequate braking.
Then of course, if you are going to use these things at any speed on a hard surface you are going to need a good crash helmet and leathers + armour . . . from personal experience that's going to put an equipment premium of about $3,000 for good equipment on top of the Roller carver price
Your premiss that these things can be used on an MTB trail is ludicrous . . . a <4" wheel is not going to follow any MTB downhill course. . . and the jumps will be very entertaining
You have created an extraordinarily narrow focussed piece of equipment with limited "PRACTICAL" application . . . It's clever . . . but useless in the real world as all your videos demonstrate. If you add up all the cost of your tool and the kit you need to protect yourself from it, you're approaching the cost of heading to the opposite hemisphere and training on the real stuff.
Now take your head out of your fundament and get realistic about your product.
Masque,
you are making a lot of incorrect assumptions and seem to have your mind already made up on the whole thing. Anyway, the wheels are not plastic but aluminium alloy with rubber treaded pneumatic tyres. Although their diameter is 6" they could be replaced by 8" mountain board wheels for a really rough surface. The thing is not limited to a hard surface and is actually more fun on dirt. You can watch the video below of Mitch riding down a dirt road with loose stones and sand. He is pushing the edges to skid. You may say that it is a dry land equivalent of crud. It also works quite well on short grass.
The other video shows Mitch making a u-turn to stop on a bitumen road. I mentioned before that rollercarvers are equipped with a simple braking mechanism which I had to use only ones and not because of real danger but more of getting a bit scarred of the speed. I have a video of a US ski coach trying the brakes but I'll have to ask him if I can upload it on youtube. If it doesn't rain too much on the weekend I'll do it, get captured on video and post it.
As far as the application of the gear is concerned I am getting requests from ski coaches and instructors around the world who want to try it for off season training which is exactly why I made it for my own use in the first place. I am sending prototypes to the US and EU next week to be evaluated by quite famous former Olympians and ski coaches and if they agree I'll post their videos on youtube. So to address your statement on application it will likely be for pro skiers. As far as the cost of protective gear is concerned mine was about $300 and except for the helmet it is practically the same as used by in-line skaters and long boarders who often go much faster than I do.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
The vids of the skier following the car work better IMHO
After all it is free
After all it is free
nosnowski, No, I don't have 'set' against your product . . . but I am a devout cynic . . . and that first video stinks in 'PR' terms. I am warming, but not significantly, to the concept and without full braking control . . . that with 6" wheels will not be a problem except for the connection between input and application . . . you will have significant liability issues in selling this to the great unwashed for use in public space. It's not like a skateboard or scooter which both have 'grandfathered' common use history and can be stepped away from.
Add to that the issue that you have only two contact points that only emulate the feeling of carve skiing on snow and cannot represent the subtleties of fine edge control . . . there is a significant chance of acquiring some contrary movement habits that will be a detriment to your on snow abilities.
I still can't see how these will benefit a competitive skier more than off season glacier or other hemisphere training . . . and let's be honest . . . crash and burn on these is going to hurt.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
I live in a pretty hilly area of the UK, but I still can't imagine anywhere around here where they would be usable. The roads are too busy, too potholed, too narrow, and covered in flints. Assuming that I COULD find a suitable road, and someone willing to drive me back up every five minutes the real killer for me is that it just looks incredibly dull. I'd be interested to see Mitch playing with the rollercarver thingies on a big open grass slope where he can really let rip. at the moment he is so tentative and slow that he just looks scared witless. An alpine piste in summer might be great.
I also worry that the frequency and severity of accidents would dissuade any serious skier from using these things. It would certainly dissuade me!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
rogg wrote:
New improved video, bigger wider road, steeper hill, pro with even more experience, it still looks dull as ditchwater.
Biggest 'edge' angle achieved is probably 10degrees, it makes a pro look like a first time skier after a few days of ski school.
OP, leave the roller skis to the XC skating guys, at least for them the movements are actually close. There is a reason these things have been around so long and never been used for training of alpine skiing.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Masque wrote:
nosnowski, No, I don't have 'set' against your product . . . but I am a devout cynic . . . and that first video stinks in 'PR' terms. I am warming, but not significantly, to the concept and without full braking control . . . that with 6" wheels will not be a problem except for the connection between input and application . . . you will have significant liability issues in selling this to the great unwashed for use in public space. It's not like a skateboard or scooter which both have 'grandfathered' common use history and can be stepped away from.
Add to that the issue that you have only two contact points that only emulate the feeling of carve skiing on snow and cannot represent the subtleties of fine edge control . . . there is a significant chance of acquiring some contrary movement habits that will be a detriment to your on snow abilities.
I still can't see how these will benefit a competitive skier more than off season glacier or other hemisphere training . . . and let's be honest . . . crash and burn on these is going to hurt.
Masque,
in terms of the potential to hurt someone it's not really much different than in-line skates or longboards and people go crazy on these things, see e.g. this http://youtube.com/v/bRywRMkrFRc. When a product like this is sold there are terms and conditions that people automatically agree to when buying it and the basic condition is that it has to be used in a safe way and safe environment. I understand that there may not be easy to find such places in the UK but this is not necessarily the case in other countries. The liability problem in most legislative domains is mainly on the product liability side i.e. if you ride and a wheel falls off due to poor quality then you may become liable. This is the advice that I got from an international law firm. Ideally these things should be used at purpose built facilities similar (but much cheaper to run) to dry slopes with dendix or snowflex. I got a ball park figures for setting a 200m dirt track with a rope tow and it is about $100K. If you add some artificial surface from something a bit softer such as synthetic grass you would need to add another $100K.
As far as competitive skiers are concerned some of them use devices such as Harb carvers and 5-wheel in-line skates. Obviously nothing beats snow even if it is summer glacier. However, how much time can they spend on glaciers? I know from a US based coach and former Olympian that this summer he will be heading twice to Mt. Hood. Also, there are many competitive skiers at different level and they want to train at least once a week. If they are at school or have to work i.e. they are not at the level that allows them to live of skiing and spend time on glaciers they need a hill somewhere near home where they can make a few runs on regular basis. Anyway, as I mentioned I am sending a pair tomorrow to the US to a few well known skiers to try. The fact that they even bother means that they see potential application of this gear. As I wrote earlier, it started as a hobby project and my livelihood is utterly independent on whether it flies or not and to be honest I'd be happy if it just pays for my snow skiing. BTW, I will not be making them but will quite likely licence the IP.
As far as brakes are concerned I personally do not feel like I need them and as I said I can stop by planting my poles in a certain way near the outer edge. However, I can see that quite a few people are concerned about brakes. I used to have ones with bike brake levers at the handles of my ski poles and this is probably the way it will evolve.
As far as your comments on the impact on real ski technique is concerned again I'll quote Mitch:
"The potential to teach people proper carving technique, which every single skier wants, is
incredible. You have to use the proper technique to Roller Carve, but it isn’t difficult to grasp
and apply. Snow tends to bring a lot of variables into the picture when trying to teach
carving technique, as you are constantly sliding in many directions and until you gain
significant momentum it is impossible to carve. With the Roller Carver you can do this at
walking pace. I can confidently say that if a person can grasp the technique on Roller
Carvers, which is honestly very simple, they will make improvements to their skiing
technique at a much faster rate than on snow. It simply allows you to feel and thus
understand the proper technique and as a result your muscle memory and skills will enable
you to apply this on the snow."
I entirely agree with this based on my own experience. I have been skiing for a long time but had a few years break when I moved down under. When I returned on the slopes I was offered rental shaped skis 170cm long. I laughed at the guy and said that I could do a bit better than that as I was skiing on Rossignols ST141 205cm long. The guy said that such skis are no longer manufactured and the new ones are parabolic. I didn't want to show my ignorance and picked up what I was given. When I came back home I googled parabolic skis and learnt about the whole thing. When one year later I bought my first skis after the break I went for the longest parabolics that I could find which happened to be Elan Waveflex 14 176cm. I must say that switching from a pivot based technique to carving with my old style skiing body memory was a challenge. That's when I started thinking about a device that I could use all year round which could simulate shaped skis. One of the things that rollercarvers let me improve literally with hours was working my inside knee and getting rid of A-frame. It is not supposed to replace snow ski but help those who learn skiing and also provide an exercise device for those more adept in the art. As I mentioned in an earlier post it employs exactly the same group of muscles as skiing and when I go to snow I can go all the way on day one and get up with no pain the next day. Another thing is balance and decision training which you can easily do with rollercarvers.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
nosnowski, I understand all of that, and I'll take your word for it that they are a genuinely useful training aid, but they just look as dull as ditchwater. I long to see two things:
1. Someone having some fun on them.
2. Someone propelling themselves forward. I assume there soe way you can do this?
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
foxtrotzulu wrote:
nosnowski, I understand all of that, and I'll take your word for it that they are a genuinely useful training aid, but they just look as dull as ditchwater. I long to see two things:
1. Someone having some fun on them.
2. Someone propelling themselves forward. I assume there soe way you can do this?
Re 1. Fun is a subjective thing and training is often no fun.
Re 2. Speed is a function of tyre pressure, gradient of slope and risk tolerance and if you are into bombing I am sure it can be done.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
nosnowski,
so a couple of questions.
If I am a high level skier and can already carve very well where is the benefit?
I can't see it being overly energetic if I am just going down a slope, and if I wanted pure cardio or fartlak type exercise then there are I think better options.
If I can't carve I can perhaps see some benefit, but what the real incentive for me to use these rather than other options as presumably I would need someone with an understanding of training on Your device as opposed to someone who is qualified to teach on artificial slopes or on man made slopes in a fridge.
And on one point, you say accident or injury would be similar to inline skating, possibly in terms of actual injury then maybe but I have to say I'd disagree quite strongly in the chance of accident. Inline skates are very easy to change direction on and there are lots of options in terms of stopping or slowing down. I think if you were moving at any speed on the roller carvers I would be very concerned about emergency course of action, and particularly using the poles to slow down if moving at anything other than walking pace. - Ever tried to stop using the poles on snow?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
ansta1 wrote:
nosnowski,
so a couple of questions.
If I am a high level skier and can already carve very well where is the benefit?
I can't see it being overly energetic if I am just going down a slope, and if I wanted pure cardio or fartlak type exercise then there are I think better options.
If I can't carve I can perhaps see some benefit, but what the real incentive for me to use these rather than other options as presumably I would need someone with an understanding of training on Your device as opposed to someone who is qualified to teach on artificial slopes or on man made slopes in a fridge.
And on one point, you say accident or injury would be similar to inline skating, possibly in terms of actual injury then maybe but I have to say I'd disagree quite strongly in the chance of accident. Inline skates are very easy to change direction on and there are lots of options in terms of stopping or slowing down. I think if you were moving at any speed on the roller carvers I would be very concerned about emergency course of action, and particularly using the poles to slow down if moving at anything other than walking pace. - Ever tried to stop using the poles on snow?
Ansta1,
I will be able to answer your question in a more authoritative way once I get feedback from the coaches who will be testing the gear. I am not assuming that it will be all positive and prefer to wait rather than hypothesize. One advantage that a few pro skiers were quick to notice is the fore/aft support, using ski boots and ability to use it on softer off road surface. One guy told me that it should be good for balance and decision training. I imagine that if it is used for training it would probably be done on a softer surface such as short grass with bumps in which case you need a bit better balance than on a smooth surface. As far as the speed is concerned it is an untested territory. The type of material used for wheels makes a massive difference. I have a shorter about 60cm long version with in-line skate wheels and it can go quite fast even on low gradient slopes. It has a very tight turning radius and an adept skier could probably even skid on them on a smooth surface.
Here's another video from EU of a former racer working as a brand manager for a ski manufacturer (interested in licensing the IP) who tries their prototype of rollercarvers which is nearly one foot longer than mine. It was his first run with the gear fresh from factory so he was trying to find his balance
http://youtube.com/v/upGRD4GIsf8
At the end they decided that the longer length is not necessarily the best thing and are now following my original spec and just trying different springs to adjust the stiffness and turning radius. He thinks that the gear could be quite good for GS training. As far as the brakes are concerned I am leaning towards disc brakes on rear wheels with levers and cables attached to the handles of ski poles, something similar to what you can find in mountain boards. It is all work in progress and that's why I am asking guys like you for their feedback and it varies from very enthusiastic to critical, with this group having by far the largest number of critics. I was warned about posting here by a few UK pro skiers but decided that listening to critics can be quite beneficial.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Are they something I would buy to use often? No there is nowhere suitable to use them locally.
Would I hire them for a couple of hours with friends as a holiday activity or as part of a day out? Yes could be fun but I wouldn't want to pay anymore than I would for a bike hire/skate hire.
I have no comment on whether they would be useful as a training aid, that wouldn't be my primary consideration.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
lilywhite wrote:
Are they something I would buy to use often? No there is nowhere suitable to use them locally.
Would I hire them for a couple of hours with friends as a holiday activity or as part of a day out? Yes could be fun but I wouldn't want to pay anymore than I would for a bike hire/skate hire.
I have no comment on whether they would be useful as a training aid, that wouldn't be my primary consideration.
I have already received a request from a ski hire shop in Cairngorm Mountain, Scotland to send them a pair for evaluation so who knows maybe this will happen one day. A ski coach from Falls Creek told me that they had a few seasons with very little snow during school holidays in July and the kids in his group were going bezirk. He had to take them to an indoor trampolining centre and other facilities in Albury which is 100km away. He said that with something like rollercarvers they could be doing a meaningful training.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Quote:
disc brakes on rear wheels with levers and cables attached to the handles of ski poles, something similar to what you can find in mountain boards
Sounds like a recipe for disaster - as in rapid pitch over handlebars.
Not too sure you'd do that. Your momentum would drive you forward, unweighting the rear wheel which would then skid/slide reducing breaking and therefore you will not be going over. Maybe.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
beequin wrote:
Quote:
disc brakes on rear wheels with levers and cables attached to the handles of ski poles, something similar to what you can find in mountain boards
Sounds like a recipe for disaster - as in rapid pitch over handlebars.
This would not happen. I had single pad caliper brakes on the rear wheels and tried them on gravel and as Rogg wrote I just skidded and it only happened when I lost most of my momentum. Those brakes were not strong enough to skid on bitumen so they were not very good for rapid deceleration. One thing that I noticed while braking was that I was instinctively bending my knees and moving my centre of gravity backwards.
I thought that these would be great with roller skis - and I guess they might be with rollercarvers too
Don't know where he's up to with commercialising the design
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
mr brain cheat wrote:
'Gravity Master' brakes look like a good solution to braking on skates
The designer, Craig Ellis, has a background in aerospace engineering and posted about them on LinkedIn a while back
The brakes are activated by leaning back - so there's an automatic counterbalance to the braking effect.
I thought that these would be great with roller skis - and I guess they might be with rollercarvers too
Don't know where he's up to with commercialising the design
I have been contacted by Craig who coincidentally sent me the same links and offered his solution to me.
The problem though is that rollercarvers are much longer than in-line skates and the platform above the rear wheel is much higher due to its size. Similar solutions have been implemented in Skikes and Powerslide XC trainers with brakes acting on the rear wheel. Having said that there is a way of implementing a calf pressure activated brake but a few ski instructors that I spoke to said that although such brakes are OK in controlled braking there may not be good if you need to brake and are a bit off balance. The bicycle type brakes can be used in practically any situation although they have other drawbacks.
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Poster: A snowHead
