 Poster: A snowHead
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If I can get a doctor to give me enough lorazepam/diazepam, I would love to ski in Canada/US.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| atraherne wrote: |
| I don't travel during new year / half term. Those prices are all in. I usually rent skis. Regardless ski carry cost applies for both London Geneva, or London - Vancouver. |
If you mean free then ok otherwise clearly not a master of the coffin bag/carry on combo.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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atraherne, I think you'll find lots of people know lots of ins and outs re flight prices and hidden charges here. Why this got derailed is you made a sweeping OTT generalisation as reason to discount an entire continent then tried to post rationalise it with perhaps the very cheapest lo co flight available to Europe all winter.
Yep no poo-poo it costs more to fly long haul than short haul and if you've only got 7 days or shorter it makes little sense unless you're loaded or have airmiles to burn.
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France ski resorts take 34.8% of UK skiers, Austria takes 28.2%, Italy takes 15.2% .................. (Crystal Ski Report July 15 2013)
France takes the greater share because of all the factors UK skiers look for.............. cheap accommodation/Expensive chalets, Spag Bol/Fine cuisine, some great skiing to boot.
Unfortunately I've not skied anywhere in France since 2009, nor do I plan to do so in the near future. This is based on personal experiences and preferences. Prior to 2009 I skied a great number of excellent French resorts, many of them many times just because of the great skiing, my ability to speak half decent French, and the easy access from low cost airline destinations. For me 2009 was a tipping point, France (especially 3V's and EK) had not only become expensive, it had become busy, frustratingly French again, and pumping through with huge punter numbers. On mountain prices for anything half decent to eat is now priced in Roubles!
I no longer ski as fast and as furious as I once did, and Mrs Skimastaaah takes her time over her vintage Krug. So I'll leave France to the greater proportion of UK skiers that head there. Enjoy some world class slopes, magnificent OP, but remember that it's not all in France.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimastaaah, Sorry............ forgot to say that UK skier numbers down 27% since peak in 2007/8.
Numbers plumet from 1,227,000, to 899,700 in space of 5 years.
As such.......... France has 100,000 fewer UK skiers than 2007/2008.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Wed 31-07-13 17:26; edited 2 times in total
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| Neraida wrote: |
| If I can get a doctor to give me enough lorazepam/diazepam, I would love to ski in Canada/US. |
I know someone who flies 3-4 times a year to San Francisco and simply asks her doctor for a prescription on the basis that she's sh*t scared of flying and her job depends on it. I tried to explain how an aeroplane works but she got a bit uppity shouting things like "I know, I know".
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France has priced itself out of the market for many years for me. I tot things up most years and the all-in cost a family trip with 3 teenagers at half term to the French Alps is at least as expensive as an equivalent trip to North America.
Sure, you can do France cheaper than the USA if you try. But if you set yourself some fairly mainstream requirements such as spacious accommodation (ie no-one sleeps in the lounge, at least two bathrooms and ample chilling-out space), all meals to be prepared for you, a resort with plentiful challenging skiing and the hire of a large SUV for relaxed transfers, France stops looking merely pricey and becomes prohibitively, outrageously expensive.
We go to the States most years because we enjoy it, not because it's cheap. But the last few times I've spoken to a travel agent and asked for equivalent French options that might beat my North American price, I've been met with an incredulous silence.
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Skimastaah - I know exactly what you mean re the Rouble. I can avoid peak times and Russian crimbo at the beginning of Jan, otherwise would be looking elsewhere.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonny Jones, You sound just like a guy I spoke to last week on this very subject.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| Neraida wrote: |
| If I can get a doctor to give me enough lorazepam/diazepam, I would love to ski in Canada/US. |
I know someone who flies 3-4 times a year to San Francisco and simply asks her doctor for a prescription on the basis that she's sh*t scared of flying and her job depends on it. I tried to explain how an aeroplane works but she got a bit uppity shouting things like "I know, I know". |
It's really weird. I have been flying long haul since I was a baby (born in South Africa) and don't have any fear, I just lose the plot and turn into a complete nutter on long haul flights. I want to go across to try some NA/Canadian snow so that's the plan. Maybe just Canadian for now, as US immigration could test the powers of sedation to the max..
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Canadian immigration are more of a PITA than US IME, at least with the US once you're in their system it's pretty much plain sailing. I put it down to commonwealth goodwill factor as Australia is similarly welcoming to Brits 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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They can't be worse than the guy I 'met' in JFK airport. I felt like getting back on the plane.
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US immigration has dramatically cleaned up its act in recent years. It's been avery long time since I found anything other than smiles, courtesy and very short queues. They've finally worked out who pays the bills.
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You know it makes sense.
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Really? This was in 2008. Even the copper outside immigration found it appropriate to make comment on a bottle of Mount Gay I was legitimately carrying!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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IIRC, it was about 2008 that the US govt announced a plan to make immigration more pleasant as they realised that tourism was being damaged. There was an almost immediate impact.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Although JFK remains a bottleneck regardless - not attitude of Immigration Officers more overall capacity if you are one of a few planes landing within minutes of each other. Main drawback of the NY for a long weekend jaunt, bad enough when on business. Also had an interesting experience with Transit authority cops impounding the airport shuttle bus I was on "for inspection" - felt like a real life desperado jumping on the cover bus they'd called in to do a "bump and run" before the cops could impound them too.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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LOL! This was business. Got lost in a dodgy area of northern NJ afterwards and felt less intimidated 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Maybe France still does well because of the flights from the UK. We always go to France, DIY and self cater as we can fly from our local airport to GVA or Chambery and then get transfer to 3V. We avoid eating on the mountain, self cater and keep the cost down that way. 3V now has a family pass where you all pay the child rate, not cheap but cheaper and lots of ski ing. We had considered other places but with the flights we would have had to travel elsewhere in the UK to say to go Italy and hence increase the cost. France has marketed itself well, and other places maybe still need to catch up, as I expect like many we are missing out on other places. Mind you if it is true that the non smoking rules in Austria are not the same as here or France (as I have heard) then there is no chance we will go to Austria.
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Jonny Jones, it has? Only a few weeks ago there was much rumbling about 3 hour queues at JFK - suggesting to me that flying Aer Lingus through Shannon would be the thing to do...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
you made a sweeping OTT generalisation as reason to discount an entire continent then tried to post rationalise it with perhaps the very cheapest lo co flight available to Europe all winter.
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You can get that rate, or very close on Saturdays throughout the season (excluding peak times, i.e Christmas, NY, half term, Easter). During peak times the difference between the long hall / short hall comes closer together but still several times more. I didn't write off North America, I made the point that going to North America significantly increases the price of a trip; when factoring in value for money you also logically need to consider the cost of traveling to and from. We are fortunate enough to live a short affordable flight away from the Alps. Some people, such as the person from South Africa have no other option than to fly long hall so there is an immediate greater cost for them.
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Yep no poo-poo it costs more to fly long haul than short haul
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I wish I had of said 'dramatically more' rather than 10X more to avoid the babies throwing their toys out of the pram.
Most people without children travel outside of peak times but by the sounds of it you don't have that option.
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| chrisb wrote: |
| We avoid eating on the mountain, self cater and keep the cost down that way. |
If that's a compromise that you're prepared to make, then France might be ideal for you.
I personally want a little comfort on holiday. I have three teenage boys with long limbs and smelly armpits so I want plenty of space. I want pleasant surroundings. I don't want to queue for the bathroom. I don't want a shabby, dated shower with low water pressure, mouldy grout and insufficient room to stand upright. I want someone to cook my meals for me. I don't want to faff with public transport. I don't want a huge queue at airport check-in. I only ski once a year, so, ideally, I want to ski for 8-9 days to make the holiday worthwhile.
I know that France can provide me with all these things, but the slightest bit of luxury seems to cost an arm and a leg there. It certainly costs far more than the extra cost of a flight to somewhere further afield. I've skied in Austria, Switzerland, Italy, Canada and the USA since I last went to France, and in every case, the all-in cost of an equivalent French holiday has been prohibitive.
In an open market, the French are free to charge what they want. And I'm free to take my cash elsewhere if they overcook their prices.
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Jonny Jones, (upfront confession, I rent apartments in France so have a clear bias). I am slightly struggling to see your point of view.
Yes, there are indeed restaurants, bars, accommodations, that over price in France. As they have been known to do in Switzerland, Italy, the US and Canada.
But while i would agree that, say, you can get an acceptable lunch in the Montosa area for way less than the average in the Portes du Soleil, in the Monterosa you are more or less going to be choosing somewhat unexciting pasta, pizza or a burger with one (at least) notable and excellent exception whereas in the PDS you have a reasonable chance of somewhere serving rather more adventurous food.
And if i want simple fare, there are plenty of places in the PDS where I can find itnat reasonable value.
I am not going to mention Chamonix. It operates on a US stYle model where almost every restaurant is owned and operated by the lift company. It's getting better but not fast.
Austria, well I have not skied there but I have spent quite a few trips on business and while I find the population delightful, the average menu choices are not entirely out of this world. And the prices were not amazing.
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under a new name, in the big French resorts, lunch on the hill is ruinously expensive if you have hungry teenagers to satisfy. But it's not just the food - in the USA, coffee and soft drink refills are free, and there are typically drinking fountains all over the mountain. Unless you carry water bottles, it's easy to spend £10 per person per day on hydration in some French resorts. Accommodation that meets basic American standards - spacious rooms, outdoor swimming pools, ample parking, etc - is branded as a luxury product in France, and it's almost always only available for Sat-Sat trips which means airport chaos and an unnecessarily short holiday.
The times that I've been in other European countries, I've found small, family-run hotels which offered economical full board options so high resort prices become less important. That type of establishment seems much more scarce in France than elsewhere in the Alps. I know - every year I approach my skiing trip with an open mind, but I never end up in France.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Jonny Jones, yes can see your point of view. We are lucky as we found an apartment three years old privately owned by a Brit and go back to the same place as it has two proper bedrooms, and new bathroom, UK telly for the kids in the evening and he is very reasonable in the weekly charge. Not sure what we would do if that option was not available. We are happy to go back to the 3V each year now as we know the places to get food etc. I must be getting old as not to try new things....
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UK telly for the kids in the evening
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So there are drawbacks
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Jonny Jones, all fair enough. I think that for your requirements North America probably works pretty well provided you can price in the additional air fare costs.
But, for me, although I have had some splendid skiing in NA, It has its drawbacks. But I like a nice lunch with a decent glass of wine.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| under a new name wrote: |
But, for me, although I have had some splendid skiing in NA, It has its drawbacks. But I like a nice lunch with a decent glass of wine. |
Some very good wine in California - in fact the selection in your average Tahoe grocery store verges on top end, with all sorts of boutiquey drink in shops catering to the Silicon Valley upwardly mobile.
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in the big French resorts, lunch on the hill is ruinously expensive
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Not the case in my experience if eating from 'huts' around Les Arcs
For various reasons we ski in France, yes we self-cater but I don't find it too expensive and nor do we sacrifice luxuries. Just some careful planning
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You know it makes sense.
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Boris, +1
(but Serre Chevalier instead of Les Arcs).
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
nor do we sacrifice luxuries
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there is a determined effort on the part of some Francophobe posters to convey a picture of families squashed into ancient rabbit hutches, washing under a pathetic trickle of luke-warm water, living on baguettes and breakfast cereal and fighting for space in queues full of rude and aggressive shrugging garlic munchers. They must think we are gluttons for punishment. The only disagreeable people I have encountered in queues and on chairlifts in 10 seasons of skiing in France have actually been German (in Les Contamines, otherwise a haven of courtesy and pleasant, uncrowded skiing) and British (in Meribel, but then what do you expect?). The British guy, to be fair, wasn't rude but his loud mobile phone conversation about all the blacks he'd knocked off that morning was cringeworthy.
As one walks the 20 metres to the piste from ones pleasant, well-equipped apartment, with nobody sleeping in the sitting room and a shower so powerful it makes ones nipples tingle (French water pressure is notably high), or sits in tiny and picturesque mountain restaurant to enjoy a plat du jour of wild boar casserole with myrtilles sauce and a "demi" of acceptable red for about 14 euros a head, one doesn't feel frightfully deprived, does one? In 10 seasons of skiing in France I have yet to have a spag bol - though I certainly don't lunch out every day. Lunching in the apartment with a home made soup, fresh baguette and Beaufort cheese, or a platter of charcuterie and a bag of salad doesn't feel like roughing it, either and the cave is well-stocked with decent, affordable, wines.
It's really quite comical. Still, if they push off somewhere else, all to the good - it leaves more options open to the rest of us, doesn't it? Something for everybody, whether you want to keep costs down or blow the budget and stay in luxury private chalet - big resort or small, high altitude or low with every possible variety of skiing. There are rude people in France, as there are everywhere, but generally the level of courtesy in everyday life is streets ahead of what you would expect to find in Britain (as it is in Austria - and indeed Italy). The spectacle of Brits criticising foreigners for vices they display in spades themselves is unedifying. (The French people I know wouldn't ski in Meribel or Courchevel because they are full of rude foreigners who often can't ski very well) 
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Poster: A snowHead
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pam w, Not everyone is lucky or insightful as to holiday in a perfectly pleasant appartment in Les Saisies. For those that have experienced the glamour of a Cham Sud, Avoriaz or Plagne 1800 studio I can see why they don't think France is a particularly enjoyable experience. You pick your vices and your compromises according to your purse and your appetite. The notion of any country being better than any other on any criteria other than snowfall is purely subjective.
I think it sad if anything that a lifetime skier might never get to ski Chamonix, La Grave, Matterhorn Area, Canadian Rockies, Cairngorm, Box Hill or the Arlberg because of personal biases or, setting aside the iconic places, never get to dabble in small low key resorts because they are so focused on name and status.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I find the only rude people in the French resorts we've been to, are tourists or Parisian waiting staff that do not fit in. I also find I get on better with your average French person, than your average Brit. There are good and bad everywhere. I personally love my spacious, well equipped and very comfortable accomodation in Arc 1950.
Anyone after a decent holiday has to do the leg work first and find what's around about right for them. Not relying solely on brochures etc.
Whatever floats one's boat!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, there is some very good accommodation in Chamonix - including at least two managed by snowheads. If people with the entire information resources of the internet at their disposal choose a horrible apartment in a nasty resort then they have only themselves to blame. If they want to find how to locate a good apartment they can always ask here. When I holidayed in La Plagne it was in a small self catered chalet which was very pleasant, comfortable, provided good food and was near lifts. And it was cheap. I also stayed in a really rather super place in Les Houches, with top class food, which accommodated non Sat/Sat bookings (it wasn't their fault the snow in chamonix was grim at the time.....) If people stayed in a damp and poky apartment in Newquay would that be a good reason to write off Cornwall?
The price quoted above approvingly, for B & B accommodation in Austria, would get you a good apartment in France even in high season.
You can't have it both ways - people seem to have a visceral urge to "blame France" for having the widest choice of really, really, cheap and basic accommodation right on top of the slopes (which it probably does) whilst at the same time complaining it is expensive. It is true that France probably provides both some of the cheapest ways of having a ski holiday and the most expensive. Which strikes me as a Good Thing, rather than an excuse to re-run the 100 Years War.
A piste-side apartment in Les Saisies is very affordable, but the skiing is too tame for some. But it's pretty easy to look at websites and work out where you want to go. It was much harder in the old days of having to rely on TO brochures. I really don't see the problem or why it causes such huffing and puffing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Still trying to suss out the motive for bumping a 2 year old thread. I'm beginning to think it was to purposefully prod the on-going France vs not-France arguments.
Go where you like. There's good skiing, bad skiing, cheap hotels, expensive hotels, cheap food, expensive food, rude people (of all nationalities, definitely including British), pleasant people (of all nationalities, yup even including Eastern Europeans), in France, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and elsewhere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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andy,
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Go where you like. There's good skiing, bad skiing, cheap hotels, expensive hotels, cheap food, expensive food, rude people (of all nationalities, definitely including British), pleasant people (of all nationalities, yup even including Eastern Europeans), in France, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and elsewhere.
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+ 1
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| pam w wrote: |
It is true that France probably provides both some of the cheapest ways of having a ski holiday and the most expensive. Which strikes me as a Good Thing, rather than an excuse to re-run the 100 Years War.
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True - but the good thing is any opportunity for an Englishman to adopt a bit of Agincourt spirit surely? No matter how francophile they are in reality.
That's the lifeblood of forums -argument over trivial things, with the very occasional noble crusade against injustice or help provided to those less obsessed.
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| Quote: |
Go where you like. There's good skiing, bad skiing, cheap hotels, expensive hotels, cheap food, expensive food, rude people (of all nationalities, definitely including British), pleasant people (of all nationalities, yup even including Eastern Europeans), in France, Austria, Switzerland, Italy, and elsewhere.
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but don't criticise other destinations out of hand.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Hells Bells wrote: |
| ...but don't criticise other destinations out of hand. |
Who did that? It sounds rather like the old strawman fallcy is making an appearance.
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I wasn't picking on anyone in particular, just a general plea to keep it nice.
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