 Poster: A snowHead
|
|
stewart woodward, is that gordy?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| skimottaret wrote: |
| stewart woodward, is that gordy? |
No. Gordy's still on the ET circuit. Close at times but still no cigar 
I think it was either James or Craig who commented earlier about people passing ET but not Tech and visa versa. I know one young guy who passed his Tech about 4 years ago and is struggling with ET, 1 guy who got straight 6's on tech and has taken another 3 seasons to pass ET, 1 guy who has got his ET but has done is tech more than 8 times,including training weeks, and is still trying to pass his tech. So they don't always go hand in hand.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
jjc,
| Quote: |
I have not assumed this. I am agreeing that technical ability alone is not the sole basis to being a good instructor. Far from it infact. If you want to achieve the top level in instructors qualifications though you need both.
Quote:
Are you possibly suggesting that there is too much emphasis on personal performance in ski instructor qualifications and not enough on the teaching skills required???
If you believe this is true and i am not suggesting its not. Then do you not need to try and get them to increase the difficulty of the teach exams rather than try and reduce the level of the tech exams? My view and many others is that the tech elements are about right. |
A quick comparison would be the number of hours training to achieve the ET verses the hours spent shadowing (ski school any capacity) plus teaching modules to ISTD standard.
The average learner wants far more FUN than high end technical input with low delivery skills.
I have no real problem with an objective test, ie ET. There should be handicaps.
IF a person at 56 can pass how good could they have been at 25, WC or EC?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
Interesting debate and JJC 's response to my questions on the quaterpipe performance brings me back to the static nature of the ISTD award or for that matter any of the levels.
A lot of industries and professions are moving away from a 'once pased forever qualified' model (example GP's moves towards a regular revalidation requirement). It is starting to look to me anyway especially in light of JJC's comments that yes the industry has moved on and that needs to be reflected in the current skillset of instructors.
So perhaps an ISTD ticket needs to have a 2-3 year rolling revalidation which would include the ET but with a age/disability provision and the rule that you cannot use the same hill for consecutive revalidations.
Little Tiger Sorry I did not mean to misrepresent you in my comments
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
[quote="jjc"]
| Quote: |
kevindonkleywood, I think you would have to run your poll in a slightly different manner. As bindingcheck pointed out we should not get a vote if we have a vested interest. |
I think bindingcheck was refering to the duties of the company directors to act in the interests of ALL members and not vested interests. The directors are bound by the companies act, but everyone else can give their own opinion and vote as they see fit.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
I think that you can often see a difference in the level of skiing between those with ISTD's prior to the ET and ISTD's post ET. I skied with a couple of recent ISTD's yesterday and it was great they were inspirational skiers! Can't say the same thing of every BASI Trainer i've been with but some are indeed fantastic.
When it comes to the Freestyle sizzle not many trainers will in fact deliver the modules due to fear of injury. In fact only one trainer will currently deliver the freestyle courses.
Luckily you have a great group of openers that risk their lives day in and day out as guardians of the highest standard of snow sports instruction  hehe
I do indeed enjoy my job so yes i am bias, but purely as an instructor i would support the age allowance but not changing the ET level as a whole.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 27-03-11 14:56; edited 2 times in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
MrsW, your first post was very good.
The purpose of this debate is to give all views with regards to the ET and try to come to a general consensus on if its appropriate or not. When I was a nipper on the dry slopes I heard mostly bad things about the ET and I believed them to be true. Why wouldn’t I? I was easily influenced and hadn’t heard another side. Looking back these instructors were the ones I didn’t find as good. Now as I go through the BASI system myself and have been to many ET and spent many hours with those that deem it appropriate I am able to look at both sides and make an informed decision. As you can see through out the pages my position has changed as I learn more. I am now much more open to age% allowance. I have also read peoples views on re testing and now share this view.
I have not suggested that sub standard lessons are being delivered. That would be ludicrous how could I possibly generalise and pass judgement on that. I do know that BASI trainers have to do trainer selection to show they are delivering modern day standards which I would imagine differ to those of 10 years ago. I have confidence they are best placed to do that. I also am of the understanding something existed in place of the ET before it came in although it was again subject to opinion and that is why it was replaced by the ET.
The ET has certainly not been the only adaption to the qualifications and most definitely won’t be the last.
What I can see and accept is that the sport is progressing and that the qualifications need to progress along with the sport. If they didn’t we would still be teaching some pretty funky stuff. As modern equipment allow the general public to do much more the instructors need to keep ahead and be able to demonstrate their technical ability and teaching ability is in line with this. They need to demonstrate this to allow them to deliver lessons appropriately for modern day clients. We shouldn’t be looking at it and suggesting “well that was ok in the past” we have to look at how we will progress in the future. I imagine as it’s been suggested this will be freestyle related. My personal view is that by removing the ET something else would need to replace it to keep up with progression. The ISIA appear to also be along this line of thinking although they suggest a test that appears harder to me. If we just removed the ET my opinion is that we would be moving backwards and not forwards.
All these views are my own and not a representation of BASI. I am only employed to ski consistently and try and help BASI members at ET. I echo again if my answers don’t satisfy you then you need to ask them to those in charge directly.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Sun 27-03-11 17:48; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
| Quote: |
over the last few years freestyle has been becoming more and more popular and we can only assume more and more clients will want to be taught something freestyle related. I have said before that qualifications progress and my guess would be that this is the next thing that will be included. I personally do not know enough about half pipe to agree if 18% is realistic. I imagine a test of this sort would be put in place and lots of research will be done on what sort of % it would be. The 18% for the ET was not plucked from thin air. I imagine they did a lot of research before deciding the level that was appropriate.
|
As you probably know, Snowboard ISIA's can now get ISTD and work in France if they do the Level 4 EMS course and gain FIS points in competition. This is generally Boardercross competition, which in itself requires a certain amount of "freestyle" skills, but I believe other disciplines have been accepted (e.g. I heard that Lesley McKenna got through on the basis of being a top FIS Halfpipe competitor for many years - no argument with that!). The number of points required seems to be shrouded in secrecy (I think due to the variations from year to year in number of competitors/events rather than anything sinister) but presumably has been set to have some kind of relevance to the ET level?
Don't know if anyone's tried their hand at PGS yet!
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
GrahamN, You won't be able to work out age adjustment tables from FIS Masters races as penalties are not recorded for them. Don't ask why, the race software calculates them automatically then they have to be removed from the results. You may be able to compare results for FFS, Austrian or Swiss national series, I'm fairly sure the French ones have proper penalties.
Another factor will be that in GS the under 55s usually start after the other two groups so have start numbers much later than the size of an ET field.
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
| jjc james wrote: |
I think that you can often see a difference in the level of skiing between those with ISTD's prior to the ET and ISTD's post ET. I skied with a couple of recent ISTD's yesterday and it was great they were inspirational skiers! Can't say the same thing of every BASI Trainer i've been with but some are indeed fantastic.
When it comes to the Freestyle sizzle not many trainers will in fact deliver the modules due to fear of injury. In fact only one trainer will currently deliver the freestyle courses.
|
A few years ago I did a refresher with the late, great Alan Bunyan and as part of that refresher he got a few of us to teach him some basic freestyle. He still wasn't convinced but it made the refresher interesting, having to teach someone of the standard.
Looked like a nice day for a ski. I saw JC's pictures on Facebook.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
skison, He was a bit back seat ay! Think JJC James should be first in line for some re testing 
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
What this thread lacks is the perspective that the Eurotest doesn't prevent you teaching in any of the countries that purport to set it as a standard for teaching.
If you were to turn up tomorrow in Morzine and sign up for an ESF lesson then the chances are that your instructor wouldn't have passed the Eurotest. Not because they have their qualification "grandfathered" to them. But simply because you can teach in France for ESF for three years without having passed the Eurotest.
All the Eurotest does is control how long you can teach for and how much you can earn.
Nothing more.
You just can't teach off-piste or for more than three years. Unless they like you. In which case rules are "bent".
Personally, I'd dispute that people who have passed the Eurotest have any "greater knowledge" of skiing than people who haven't passed the Eurotest. A couple of years ago I was "slapped down" by an ISTD who insisted that the centre mark of the ski is at the centre of the length of the ski. He had no concept that the centre of the sidecut radius could be anything other than half way down the length of the ski.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
|
jjc james, Video looks good buddy. Cant wait to get the knee sorted!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
| FlyingStantoni wrote: |
| A couple of years ago I was "slapped down" by an ISTD who insisted that the centre mark of the ski is at the centre of the length of the ski. He had no concept that the centre of the sidecut radius could be anything other than half way down the length of the ski. |
I've met a number of relatively high level instructors with a level of understanding of equipment that is below that of a 3 month shop assistant. Try a straw poll of how many instructors have gone out and purposefully tried rockered skis or listen to some of the rubbish spouted about boots.
I'm not saying they have to be gear geeks or flogging the latest shizzle in "can't buy a turn" but I'd expect them to have at least tried modern ski designs and be able to articulate why the advice a customer had had from his/her mates or shop wasn't necessarily the best for their development.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
jjc,
Thanks for the info on the College students.
The vested interest would only apply if you were involved in making a decision which was likely to have a positive consequence on you or your business interests. For example if you were an elected councillor (on a county council) and you voted in favour of funding a proposal that would help your business that would be, in legal speak a 'conflict of interest' or a vested interest.
In your position and with reference to this forum the question is; if you 'voted' are you expressing an opinion or making a decision? This forum can't make decisions so it has to be an opinion
On the other hand if BASI were inclined to abandon the Eurotest and it depended on how you voted then because you or your JJC company currently gain an income either directly or indirectly from the existence of the Eurotest you would have to declare a conflict of interest.
Does that clarify matters?
The Eurotest survives, despite its dubious legal situation, due to the highly skilled political chicanery of FEMPS especially France. FEMPS (who are all supposed to be also members of ISIA) turned up at the ISIA meeting in Austria mob handed, ie they came prepared with their expert lawyers. They also had presented in advance of the meeting 5 or 6 'ambush' proposals. FEMPS are very worried that they are likely to be out manouvered in the courts. Watch out for FEMPS trying to get the EU Commission to 'outlaw' or dismiss ISIA, in which case there would be no point in the ski instructor associations of any EU nations joining or supporting ISIA. Currently the "Brussels Agreement" (see the link to it in an earlier post of mine) strengthens FEMPS hand. If some of the signatories withdrew in favour of some other test then the FEMPS power base would be seriously weakened.
While the whole industry should be market driven, ie. what is best for the customer (or Citizen in EU speak). The workers, that's us the instructors, don't really feature too highly in the pecking order as most of the political lobbying is done by the Syndicat or the equivalent in Austria and Italy and they don't place altruism to high on their list of priorities.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
This thread has matured nicely 
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
The vested interest would only apply if you were involved in making a decision which was likely to have a positive consequence on you or your business interests
|
Surely the vested interest issue only applies to the BASI company directors involved in making policy decisions? These people must declare any vested interest as their decisions have to be in the best interests of the overall company. However, the BASI members (who may of course inform the Board of their views) may all have vested interests and vote in line with what is best for them - no problem with that, as long as the BASI directors then take the overall best position for BASI...
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
spiceman,
| Quote: |
| no problem with that, as long as the BASI directors then take the overall best position for BASI... |
or better:
"as long as the BASI directors then take the overall best position for the BASI membership as a whole"
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
Bindingcheck,
| Quote: |
On the other hand if BASI were inclined to abandon the Eurotest and it depended on how you voted then because you or your JJC company currently gain an income either directly or indirectly from the existence of the Eurotest you would have to declare a conflict of interest.
|
| Quote: |
But surely the abandoning of the ET is in the "vested interest" of those it currently "keeps out" as their business is being held back so they could therefore not vote either. Plus every BASI member will gain the money they would have spent on training/testing so its in their vested interest not to have it, so they can't vote either.
The way i see it only non-basi members would be able to vote?/ |
The example I used was not intended to be a realistic proposal I was merely trying illustrate within a 'ski industry setting' a particular set of circumstances. The circumstances mirror the previous example of the "county councillor". Your response is based on a hypothetical argument rather than one which exists in either actual (current) or historical fact. I was trying to show that within this forum opinions can be freely expressed as there is no conflict of interest
However I regret that my attempt to be helpful has only served to deflect from the debate.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Quote: |
Your response is based on a hypothetical argument rather than one which exists in either actual (current) or historical fact.
|
Considering people here were talking about having a poll and then presenting it to BASI i think my point is valid. I'm sure their posts are sit accessible and are therefore just as historically correct as any other.
|
|
|
|
|
|
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
|
jjc james, The poll suggestion from my part was not to create a black and white yes/no but to examine the feelings and attitudes (hence my comment regarding carefull design). I have great issues with 'democracy by focus group' and don't believe that the best policies are developed from such groups, however given the number of posts, the quality of some of the arguments and the continual rumbling of the ET 'issue' then it would have been nice to actually guage the %ages for various options.
My views have changed through the course of this thread, some of my initial feelings about protectionism of the current system have been reinforced but equally the value of the 'principle' of the objective nature of the test has also developed. I have misgivings about the lack of an age adjustment (but that is a vested interest) and the single racing focus of the test. Im also now strongly of the view that should the ET 'threshold' be deemed a requirement (rightly or wrongly) then its should be subject to regular revalidation if it is to have any credibility.
BTW nice bump skiing post on FB and clearly just like my bump skiing (well from 1:34 that is )
|
|
|
|
|
|
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
|
kevindonkleywood,
Like yourself my opinions have changed during this debate. I have been exposed to options which I had no previously considered and while some arguments have prevailed upon myself others have floundered. The process, for me, would have been incomplete if as JJC James suggested on page 6 that we should stop as we had hit a brick wall.
Take your point about the risks of a 'democracy by focus' groups but all members are entitled express or pass their opinions to the Board who should then take those opinions into account when (and if) a decision needs to be made.
Agree that a 'poll' is problematic as it lacks the need to be dynamic. Perhaps instead of a series of check boxes we should be thinking more of a flow chart. ie, if you think the answer to question 'A' is yes follow this route, if the answer is no then, for that individual, follow this route (which could mean the end of the debate for them).
I accept that a flow chart type thingy would reduce the opportunity for vacillation but has that not been the point of the last 10 pages?
Alternatively perhaps the best thing to send to BASI is not a 'conclusion' but list of the concerns which have been raised regarding the current situation.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Bindingcheck, Perhaps there is another way of looking at this, from the broader perspective of what BASI members actually buy from their association.
I'd suggest that as a member you are buying 2 things,
1. A licence to teach skiing and\or snowboarding, specifically in a mountain environment if qualified L2 or more.
and
2. Professional liability insurance.
In exchange for this you pay your annual subscription and undertake examinations to prove your competence. Fair enough.
But here's the rub. Those members qualified at L2 or L3 appear to have limited opportunities where those qualifications are valid for work. People have argued that this effectively makes the L2 and L3 qualifications stepping stones to L4. This is a problem for those spending $$$$ attaining qualifications, then finding work opportunities rather limited, and then finding the pathway to L4 effectively blocked by the ET.
I'd much rather BASI put effort into getting L2 and L3 qualification wider acceptance as a licence to work in their current formats (without adding extra modules, higher levels etc.) and leave the ET \ L4 as an elite qualification and I suspect this would serve the wider membership far more.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You know it makes sense.
|
david@mediacopy,
Agreed with the 'buying 2 things' but that I would add you are also buying the right to be represented at a governmental level and internationally (ISIA not FEMPS).
My understanding is that as of the last BASI General Meeting, BASI provides 'qualifications' not 'licenses'. Does this make any difference?
| Quote: |
I'd much rather BASI put effort into getting L2 and L3 qualification wider acceptance as a licence to work in their current formats (without adding extra modules, higher levels etc.) and leave the ET \ L4 as an elite qualification and I suspect this would serve the wider membership far more.
|
Understand this notion. This was in fact one of the opinions that I had not previously considered. Some might be of the opinion that while an L3 could work in a ski school 'without a time bar' as has been suggested an L2 should have some sort of 'time bar' to encourage them to develop their qualification. On the other hand, with reference to sixman and others, why not leave it to the market (ski school) to decide who should be employed?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
|
Bindingcheck,
| Quote: |
| On the other hand, with reference to sixman and others, why not leave it to the market (ski school) to decide who should be employed? |
Back to insurance. Presumably the providers of ski school public liability insurance would define this.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Poster: A snowHead
|
david@mediacopy,
| Quote: |
I'd much rather BASI put effort into getting L2 and L3 qualification wider acceptance as a licence to work in their current formats (without adding extra modules, higher levels etc.)
|
They are both pretty widely accepted, bar France and with some exceptions Italy. Even in France BASI is working on introducing British training centres, which will allow L2s to work in France for certain ski schools.
I know skimottaret started the other thread re value of ISIA, but it does add value from an employment, visa and pay perspective - although admittedly not as much in Europe which is the focus for skimottaret, as it does elsewhere in the world.
BASI is continually working to improve recognition of BASI qualifications globally - for example there has been a lot going on behind the scenes with regard trying to gain recognition of non-alpine qualifications, i.e snowboarding, adaptive etc.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
|
beanie1,
| Quote: |
| I know skimottaret started the other thread re value of ISIA, but it does add value from an employment, visa and pay perspective - although admittedly not as much in Europe which is the focus for skimottaret, as it does elsewhere in the world. |
Accepted. It's unfortunate that for most UK Instructors the opportunities in Europe are quite important when weighing their return on investment against the cost of attaining and maintaining the ISIA.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
|
| Quote: |
Accepted. It's unfortunate that for most UK Instructors the opportunities in Europe are quite important when weighing their return on investment against the cost of attaining and maintaining the ISIA.
|
Plenty manage with working in Switzerland, Italy, Andorra and Austria. Ok some places in Italy vary but we still have Interski!
I'd be interested in how many ski schools are available to those with L2's and L3's, i'd bet on the number being rather large!
|
|
|
|
|
|
You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
|
jjc james, I think the key phrase in the quote is
| Quote: |
| return on investment against the cost of attaining and maintaining the ISIA. |
I have spent and continue to sped significant sums both in attaining\maintaining assorted qualifications and continuing on my own CPD, but I increasingly feel that when working I'm just subsiding other peoples businesses the way things are currently structured.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
|
david@mediacopy, well from my time in NZ, Switzerland, Italy and Austria i have been in contact with many people that work, live and continue through the system in these countries. It is achievable.
| Quote: |
But here's the rub. Those members qualified at L2 or L3 appear to have limited opportunities where those qualifications are valid for work. People have argued that this effectively makes the L2 and L3 qualifications stepping stones to L4. This is a problem for those spending $$$$ attaining qualifications, then finding work opportunities rather limited, and then finding the pathway to L4 effectively blocked by the ET.
|
Surely it sensible to check where you can work before you take a course, I do. I have a massage course that will only let me work in certain places when i get home and if it didn't let me work where i wanted to i simply wouldn't spend the $$$$$$.
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
|
| Quote: |
I have a massage course that will only let me work in certain places
|
I bet you tell all the ladies that
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| jjc james wrote: |
Surely it sensible to check where you can work before you take a course. |
Sensible but not always clear or possible - for me when embarking on a ladder I'd have to forecast where the various BASI/ISIA/FEMPS political shenanagins and everything else might end up in say 5 years time if I take the realistic assumption that I will never pass the ET without an age allowance unless its on a very flat course where weight outweighs any other benefit.
Lets say I think the CSIA route gives me more chance of high level qualification cos I have a natural ability to hunch my shoulders and bob I still have to bet on whether they'll sort out an internationally compliant Mountain safety module in 5 years.
Moving goalposts?
|
|
|
|
|
|
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
|
I cannot understand the argument against having an age allowance. Is there not a different test time requirement for the girls?
Why isn’t there an age allowance?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| beanie1 wrote: |
Even in France BASI is working on introducing British training centres, which will allow L2s to work in France for certain ski schools. |
Currently in the Espace Killy we have the following ski schools which will employ BASI L2's;
3 ESF schools, 2 EV2, Top Ski, Snowfun, 333.
All these ski schools currently employ/have employed/will employ BASI members.
Why do we need British Training centers?
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
FAQ
