 Poster: A snowHead
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I took it to mean in sight of the piste and not more than, perhaps, 200 or 300 metres away (?)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Gosh - has just taken me all lunch hour to get through this - Got to go to the AGM now ( well not now - end of November )
I hope that they will have done some joined up thinking and have a complete statement ready for us in relation to the accident - ( do they think the Rep was at fault in any way/ not obeying the existing guidelines ?), where the monies have already been spent and what they consider the future liablities are likely to be (in reality as opposed to Accounting standards) - ie is it an insurer and/ or dependents who have initiated some claim and what do they consider the strengths of any such claim.
And then the exact nature of the changes being made to off piste reps skiing and why they have tried to fluff this as a member benefit, and how it has been taken by the Reps ( if any remain)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I suggest we ask Graeme how short a short ski is... 
I suspect it will mean in direct vision of a piste and in a lower risk area for avalanches, crevasses etc etc.
GrahamN, even looking at those who ski with freshtracks, the majority are silver or below, perhaps we sadder enthusiasts (and I am only a humble purple minus myself) overestimate how keen the membership is on going off-piste. I have occasionally felt that some people would rather be on a flat bit of off-piste crud rather than, say a steep mogul field or run which was "on-piste"
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Scrumpy, I cannot see issues of fault and potential cost being discussed until legal proceedings over.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I must say I feel safer off-piste. My only accident of recent years (last year) was someone skiing into me from behind, on piste - both of us going fast.
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achilles, as I've said at least twice in this thread, it all depends on what is meant by "a short ski". If it's 10-15 mins then basically it's no change from what reps have previously been doing. If it's a few metres then as far as I'm concerned the Club is then nothing more than another TO. Exposure/steepness is a totally different quality from and largely unrelated to distance from piste.
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GrahamN, yup. It needs clarifying. Have a nice AGM - or email you favourite council member through the club. FWIW, I don't think I have nothing planned where I will be skiing with a rep next season - unless I get terribly anti-social at the MSB! I had vaguely thought about going to a resort rep for a week - but finding a suitable time for another week's skiing is starting to look tricky. Anyway, as I am not immediately affected, I shall wait and see what pans out. And pop along to see BS cuddling up his inflatable doll, if he tells us where he's doing it.
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achilles, firstly, hate to pull you up on your grammar but...
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I don't think I have nothing planned where I will be skiing with a rep next season
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enough to get you shot at the club what what?
For fun I just scan read all this from page 1 (yes, it is a slow day in the office) and strikes me that nobody has really offered an alternative definition (if you can call what the letter says a "definition"). Certainly, if it stays like that, it's so woolly that it would never stand up in court. Perhaps the answer would be for the club to designate which off-piste runs can/cannot be used by reps with members/guests. Shouldn't be too tough to do for 40 or so resorts in conjunction with local guides. Should then be the rep's responsibility to check conditions on the day and procedures for this for each resort need to be written down. Each resort is different after all.
Pamela Avvyson (gotta work on the branding) is well underway and I'll be trying out the prototype under the duvet later this afternoon.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
and strikes me that nobody has really offered an alternative definition . |
See top of page.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
achilles, firstly, hate to pull you up on your grammar but...
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I don't think I have nothing planned where I will be skiing with a rep next season
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enough to get you shot at the club what what? |
 WYSIWYG
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| For fun I just scan read all this from page 1 (yes, it is a slow day in the office) and strikes me that nobody has really offered an alternative definition (if you can call what the letter says a "definition"). |
You can't.
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| ............. Perhaps the answer would be for the club to designate which off-piste runs can/cannot be used by reps with members/guests. Shouldn't be too tough to do for 40 or so resorts in conjunction with local guides. Should then be the rep's responsibility to check conditions on the day and procedures for this for each resort need to be written down. Each resort is different after all. |
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I think the same as you. Scary.
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| Pamela Avvyson (gotta work on the branding) is well underway and I'll be trying out the prototype under the duvet later this afternoon. |
Pictures, please.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Although some of the most used off-piste "runs" or areas have names there are a large number of others which do not and countless alternatives to those which do. I cannot see any prospect of going through all the possibilities - they are just too numerous and difficult to define - even in one large resort, let alone all of them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| snowball wrote: |
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
and strikes me that nobody has really offered an alternative definition . |
See top of page. |
Depends how good your eyesight is.
These days it is electronically possible to monitor where reps are. I've seen a GPS system that works off a 3G phone and can be monitored from a PC. Rep strays away from designated off-piste area... alarm goes off (or is it "awf"?). The day's repping can be downloaded as a record. These things can actually be properly defined to within a few metres. No one is going to like it but the technology is there.
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snowball, you would define them by shaded areas "GO" and "NO GO".
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You know it makes sense.
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Scary!!! If I were a rep I wouldn't want to be part of that! And presumably the map would be changed each day (and perhaps morning / afternoon on warm days) as conditions changed!!! Not a chance.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Will all this mean the reps will now be expected to carry a puncture repair outfit in the rucksack !!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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And presumably the map would be changed each day (and perhaps morning / afternoon on warm days) as conditions changed!!! Not a chance.
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Map would stay the same but rep still needs to be able to make the decision whether safe or not. All I'm saying is, whatever the final definitions/procdures may be, the club clearly has a need to introduce some kind of formal properly documented risk management or they are wide open to legal action if and, inevitably, when a bad one happens.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Dypcdiver, didn't manage to puncture Pammy this afternoon during testing.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| GrahamN, even looking at those who ski with freshtracks, the majority are silver or below, perhaps we sadder enthusiasts (and I am only a humble purple minus myself) overestimate how keen the membership is on going off-piste. |
I'm not at all sure I agree with that. On my very first Freshtracks holiday (when I was graded a humble Silver-minus) we spent almost the entire week off-piste. Not very far off to be sure, but that's what opened my eyes to the much bigger world that lay more than 2m away from the piste poles. The next one (long weekend to Davos), we again spent as much time as possible off-piste. The only other nominally-not-off-piste holiday I'been on (December in Val D'I) I was looking forward to some intenstive on-piste work (and took my slalom skis along in that hope) but it was clear just about all 90 of those there were going to be as off-piste as possible - despite the conditions being such that bases were being filled every night. OK I'm going to self-select for off-piste bias, but as far as I see it, the Club is pretty much obsessed with being off piste at every possible occasion.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Gob-smacked even me whose got written down in one of their little black books for a mornings skiing in Saas Fee in 2006 has got the letter
Edited for bad spelling!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Minimum level of qualification to "teach" of piste in Europe in the ski teacher holding the ISIA qualification. This is to allow skiers who need "instruction" to continue to develop with the ski school. The alternative would be to pass them on to a UIAGM who is not a ski teacher, nor interested in teaching a novice off piste skier. However, the remit of the ISIA has limitations. The ski teacher will lead off piste on a marked route, recognised off piste route or within the resort (between the piste's). The 6 day ISIA training course (off piste) equips ski instructors to carry out this limited off piste operation. The ski teacher with his/her group will be developing the skiers technique as a primary role (safety being first). The ISTD qualification allows the ski teacher to take his/group further, including skinning. None of the activities can include alpinism (climbing using equipment) or take place on glaciated terrain. Once again the ski teacher is the technical link between developing skiing skills and a guide.
The ISIA and ISTD courses are both assessed by UIAGM mountain guides who need to be satisfied that the candidate has reached the minimum level to operate within the qualification remit. ISTD s will take 4 days of training which is then followed up be a mandatory period of logged tours. The candidate then return's to be assessed at the level (3 days).
There are people who well may feel they have done more "training" than the candidates in the European ski teaching systems, and this may well be so. However, its worth remembering that at ISIA level, but definitely at ISTD level these ski instructors are professionals and have spent many years in the mountain building skills. The reality it that they probably well exceed the minimum levels. Not only that, all the way through their training they have been assessed for their suitability to lead paying customers and teach (in all situations).
I would not be convinced that the SCGB reps have undergone such a holistic education programme that would assess all these skills.
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ZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz.......Wazzza.....snork......wot?.........zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
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elbrus, I cannot fault your post, but the bit that is missed is that SCGB reps do not teach, they do however spend a considerable amount of time being assessed by UIAGM guides and BASI trainers on their knowledge of mountain craft ie. avoiding putting the people they are skiing with into hazardous positions on or off piste.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wo? [burp] [fart]. Look, now I am going to have to get up to go to the loo and have a pee. You guys really should think before you wake up and old chap like me in a thread like this.
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It seems that, in certain parts of Europe, at least, according to the law of the area in which you are skiing, the MOST EXPERIENCED skier will be held liable for the group he/she is leading, regardless of whether he/she is qualified professionally, or not; ie if something were to happen to someone in a group you were leading, you could, potentially, face criminal charges if something were to happen to a person skiing with you!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Skigal, and just how are they going to establish that? most days on piste, on snow, on snowy piste, off piste, a lot off piste, very far off piste, a lot off piste but not very far, most notches on bedpost?
Or what?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Skigal, Hello, welcome to  s!
David Murdoch, I think I can see where Skigal is coming from, even in English law, and this has nothing to do with whether the group is on or off the piste. The liability would hang, in effect, on the interpretation of the word 'leading' and whether the claimant had, justifiably, placed his reliance on the leader's assurance that a particular manoeuvre would be safe, and that manoeuvre had then resulted in injury. Obviously disclaimers come into play here: and not all disclaimers are valid.
I suspect the Ski Club is in a very unenviable situation at the moment. People are up in arms, because the repping service is so popular (it seems as though the future survival of the Club may depend on its continuance, in its present form) and both reps and their charges want to ski off-piste; but in our increasingly litigious society, liability for negligence etc becomes ever more an issue. They are presumably being screwed by their own insurers to limit potential damage. Don't know what the answer is, save that they will have to come up with better guidance for permitted off-piste skiing than 'skiing near the piste' or whatever the wording is. Not much use trying to avoid litigation with some wording that is itself wide enough for a bus to be driven through it!
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| the repping service is so popular |
... yes, with the reps  . What % of SKGB members actually avail themselves of the service? From what I hear it isn't enough that the disappearance of the reps would mean the end of the club.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Skigal wrote: |
| It seems that, in certain parts of Europe, at least, according to the law of the area in which you are skiing, the MOST EXPERIENCED skier will be held liable for the group he/she is leading, regardless of whether he/she is qualified professionally, or not; ie if something were to happen to someone in a group you were leading, you could, potentially, face criminal charges if something were to happen to a person skiing with you! |
This would be especially true if the leader was "trained", uniformed and was part of a service offered in resort by a commercial organisation.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
| ......From what I hear it isn't enough that the disappearance of the reps would mean the end of the club. |
You may be right - though it is mainly the reps who have become council members - partly because like nominates like, I suspect (any member can nominate another for Council but few do). Also partly because they are the sort of people who have the get-up-and -go and willingness to be involved in club activities. So, no reps, no such group putting themselves forward to direct the club activities.
This issue has been running steadily on the Club site since this thread went quiet (until today). Members may wish to see for themselves there - one thread in the Skiing section, and I think 3 in the Ski Club section. Despite that interest in the club forum - a very small percentage of the membership is posting, so maybe the rest don't care so much. I would like to see the rep system continue - but I can see there may be problems. I shall be missing a lively AGM this year, I think.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, From memory - about 15-20% per year plus another 8% with freshtracks where there will be a rep along as well. The most recent report was less easy to analyse than the previous years. Given that the total membership numbers include some who may be not skiing that year, or who are children unsuitable for rep led days, or who are going to resorts where there is no rep. I think it is actually a pretty good reach. The research done a year or so back showed the reps as one of the leading reasons for membership retention. Don't believe your old mucker DG who seems to have a marked antipathy to the whole idea of the reps. His interpretation of numbers was always... interesting...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Don't believe your old mucker DG
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stoatsbrother, This is the guy I've seen 4 times in 20 years your talking about! Strewth, I am known to have other pals. Anyway, there are many posts in the depths of this forum that quote numbers, I just remember it being "not that many".
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Bode Swiller, Since you put the question to me, the answer is: I don't know. (I didn't join the Club for the repping service myself, and have never skied with a rep, except for having been on one Freshtracks holiday with a rep-leader - who was excellent.) I have over the years got the 'soft' impression that the service is very popular, though, and my impression has been reinforced by hearing long-standing and loyal members saying, now, that they might resign their memberships if they can't ski off-piste with the reps. Maybe I've got it wrong.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bode Swiller, sorry - thought you were best pals and all that... and you were beginning to sound like him... again...
The answer is that a significant number use the service each year, and even more than that appear to appreciate it. Have a look over the figures sometime..
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode - Numbers for 2006 - see page 8 - cannot find electronic version of 2007. Note these are numbers of skiers,not skier days. Looks like 14%.
If you are really that keen - I will try and get the MRI numbers for what members valued the most... but you probably are not.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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but you probably are not
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Correct.
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and you were beginning to sound like him...
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so, you're obsessed with DG and anyone who comes into contact with him. Get help.
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Bode Swiller, no I am not obsessed - and a simple search would show you that on the last occasions he popped up on the same threads as me over here - including this week I extended a friendly welcome to him. But if you had spent any time on the forum over there trying to explain simple mathematical errors and seen the number of times he started attacking the rep service you too would have recognised some of what you had said as a classical Goldsmithian opening gambit. Ok?
Now - do you think the numbers are good/bad or indifferent? or would you prefer to play the man, not the ball?
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stoatsbrother, I'd prefer it to be England 2 Croatia 0 but you can't have everything.
Numbers, numbers, numbers... how the hell would you, I, or anyone here have a clue what the real truth is? Print a nicely designed document and everyone will believe the contents. All I know is that things like legal action and health & safety issues (not that I necessarily agree with either in this case) will, eventually, kill off the rep service as it currently exists. You can't be "a little bit off piste" and you can't train someone of limited experience in approx 2 weeks to lead people without there being grave consequences both financially and, sadly, bodily if it all goes t*ts.
It's half time and despite my country's plight I'm off up the pub to watch the remainder.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller,
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All I know is that things like legal action and health & safety issues (not that I necessarily agree with either in this case) will, eventually, kill off the rep service as it currently exists. You can't be "a little bit off piste" and you can't train someone of limited experience in approx 2 weeks to lead people without there being grave consequences both financially and, sadly, bodily if it all goes t*ts.
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That all makes sense to me.
I'm enjoying an interesting programme about Russia on BBC4. Football? Pah.
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Bode Swiller, sadly - I think you may be right. Be interesting to see what happens though.
Hurtle, thrice pah indeed. Mark Thomas on the evils of coca cola on more 4.
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FAQ
