 Poster: A snowHead
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Having come back to this thread after a few days away, I can see that in my defensiveness and heat of the moment made "a bif of a hash" in the schoolboy physics, even though the(my) original assertion holds true. Thanks to GrahamN (amongst others) who has put up with my Newton denialist moments!
I don't really want to re-open the can regarding applying pressure[force], but just a thought for you, GrahamN, skiing is all about balance, balance, balance, and if you can balance on those edges early/high up in the turn, and build pressure progressively, then for me the objective is met. A lot of racing methodology is about "pressure in the fall line" (as opposed to pressure early in the turn). What *is* a black spot for me is when someone starts talking about a "stomp" or "push". Certainly with our athletes we don't talk at all about "early pressure", just "early edging", and building pressure to get the benefits in the fall line. Candidate instructors (ISIA and above) who talk about "early pressure" on their exams soon get brought to task. Greg Grushman (amongst many other coaches) touches on this on his website, and never refers to "applying pressure early".
Centrifugal Force? Let's not even open that one! 
As for pivot/steer/carve, it's on my list of threads to start so I shan't address it here!
| rob@rar wrote: |
| If the instructors I've had are typical, they will use less technical (and arguably less precise) language to convey concepts and skills. Skiing is essentially a very straightforward activity, and it's only when you get to the point of fine-tuning a skier's performance that the minutiae that has been discussed in this thread becomes important. |
Hurrah! At last! Someone who can distinguish make believe summer boredom internet forum nit picks, from real life!!!
Hurtle, It is incumbernt on every coach to understand the fundementals and biomechanics of their sport. That is the direction this thread has gone. This is not a how-to-ski thread (it never was), it's a how skiing works thread. It's about the fundemental principles and techniques at work in skiing and it's application. Please stop banging on about how this is a complicated how-to-ski thread, because it's not. By all means read as little or as much as you want, but don't whine that it's not suiting you because you want a how-to-ski thread. 
Stick around for longer than a season and you'll see that this happens every summer through boredom, frustration etc. of not being on the snow.
It's relatively easy to teach someone to roast a joint of beef in simple language. For some, like Heston Blumenthal, who want to take their knowlege and application of cooking further, knowing that "sealing the meat by frying it" is a myth, or knowing the actions of kneading and proteins in breadmaking will actually make them better chefs/cooks because of their understanding of the fundemental principles. Don't deny anyone that pleasure.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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veeeight, It's OK, I now know not to get embroiled in threads containing humourless, pompous, patronising and unbelievably long-winded posts by contributors who like nothing better than the sound of their own voices and, above all, being right. But perhaps, just before I sign off, you'd be kind enough to point me in the direction of my whine for a how-to-ski thread. Thanks.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Hurtle, I can assure you that as Fastman has had to put up to me asking stupid questions for years he seems quite willing to answer.... In fact I am still amazed at the lengths he was prepared to go to provide me with clear and useful answers to my sometimes rather muddly questions
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| easiski wrote: |
FastMan, In your excellent post you have assumed that beginners are taught to turn by rotation of the foot/ski. I suggest that if they are not then a lot of this is moot.  Of course for 'old school' skiers this will always be a challenge. |
I'd guess he is in fact working from what he sees on the hill...(but I'm working on the basis of only the time I've skied with him... so I could be wrong)
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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veeeight, since we're playing nicely again, my intention was never to score points, but just to check you did have your physics straight - knowing that this was a bit of a bee in your bonnet. If this has allowed you to think through (or revise) what you understand on the subject, then objective achieved. It's certainly got me thinking a little more deeply about some aspects of what's actually going on - and I think a useful concept or two has come out of that (whether or not I expressed it clearly or opaquely). Depending on what "pressure" we're talking about though I still disagree that merely edging a ski (on hard snow) increases the "pressure" on it - if we're talking civilly maybe we could talk that through - or maybe it's better just not to kick that canine. (An example to think about here though, if we were to go down that route, would be the case of too light a skier on too stiff a ski)
It's certainly true that most of my (limited) racing experience is on plastic - although I have spent some time training through gates on snow - and so your earlier caveat may well apply. I have a suspicion from watching the faster racers on the circuit that you can get down to about 100 (BARTS) points just by minimising the amount we get in the way of gravity (and getting a bloody good start ), but to get lower you need to be actively generating pace. If ever I get to those levels and find out (currently targetting that for 2009), I'll let everybody know! I have certainly experienced cases where "pushing" too hard has resulted in much slower times, but also the case where aiming for a very light glide has resulted in a smooth and faster run, but nowhere as fast as one where both aspects are balanced. I was told by Georgie Hunt (probably the best dryslope racer in the last 10 years?), that the key to it was to always be "as light as possible". Care to explain (or point me to a reference to) the "pressure in the fall-line" concept? I'll have another look at youcanski and see if there's more of interest there, and I guess I need to order a copy of LeMaster's book sometime.
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GrahamN, I'll let the dog lie for a little longer, have a think about your words/thoughts, and get back to you on some links etc.
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veeeight, no worries!
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GrahamN, no matter what the fashionable semantics amongst the ski cognoscenti, extension onto a platform is always going to produce an increased pressure, unless and until an unweighting, jump or fall, a disconnection from the platform, occurs. Personally I see a helluva lot more crossovers than crossunders in performance skiing.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
I have a suspicion from watching the faster racers on the circuit that you can get down to about 100 (BARTS) points just by minimising the amount we get in the way of gravity |
That's spot on.
| Quote: |
| but to get lower you need to be actively generating pace. |
Uhhhhhhhh,,, better to stick with the gravity idea. There are only minor ways in which to "generate" pace, and their benefits are minimal in comparison to the speed realized from the refined ability to avoid DUMPING speed. Most other speed generating attempts provide negative returns, as the actions involved create more resistance and dump at least as much speed as they provide, while introducing movements that negatively impact balance/smoothness/timing/edge control. Simply focusing on, as you say, "staying out of gravity's way", staying clean, being subtle on your edges, running an aggressive line, no steering, no double turns, and staying in balance at all times is enough to take a person to the world cup.
Don't believe it?. Watch Rocca ski slalom. He's the epitome of highly refined simplicity. Always in perfect balance, never harsh on his edge, nothing extra beyond executing precise and well placed pivots and turns as he gives gravity free reign to pull him to the finish line.
Pushing to generate speed is best accomplished via adjustments in line. Translation: straighten it out. The straighter you go, the less you combat gravity. But there comes a point that the harshness on the edges resulting from this tactic dumps more speed than is gained. The break point will vary with each skier. The higher the skill level, the greater the natural athletic gifts, the straighter a racer can go. Nothing can be done about innate athletic prowess. But skill level is very much under our control. As always, it comes back to one thing: training and development of the fundamental skills. This, Hurtle, is where you and these racer guys are in the same boat.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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FastMan, Does this work the same on a dry slope? Is the extra friction an issue.... and does the relatively flat slope come into play with that?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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little tiger, good question. My comments were totally snow based. I've never skied plastic, but would imagine between the flatness and extra drag it very well could make a difference and require some extra skating type transitions. GrahamN?
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little tiger, You're asking what I kinda alluded to earlier, about "peeps" compensating for forces that aren't normally there in greater magnitude, but it would be interesting to see what FastMan makes of it! You might have to invite him down to ski the UK's finest first though!
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You know it makes sense.
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veeeight, you paying the airfare?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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FastMan, there's no faster way down the hill than straight down, so trying not to get in the way of gravity is always going to be the goal, but going round corners naturally requires getting in the way of gravity and it's a question of how to do it. Your post above is the only well explained (as usual) post on the racer's perspective so far and perhaps I'm misunderstanding all this but I'm not sure that there's a difference between speed generating and not speed dumping when it comes to for instance getting the body to go down the flow line.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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FastMan, on plastic you do see a lot of people skating hard to overcome the friction on the top and bottom of the course. the speeds are fairly slow and a good start seems to be very important. I am sure grahamN can comment further.
Hurtle,
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This is not a how-to-ski thread (it never was), it's a how skiing works thread
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I think that is spot on a perhaps the source of the irritation between you and others as they were looking at things from a different perspective.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, a bit like that other thread that a few instructors are avoiding!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skimottaret, Even that's semantics. How it works determines how you do it, I have never denied that. But there are limits to the importance of that statement. Also there are ways and ways of explaining how it works. And, finally - really finally - what about the irritation displayed between 'others and others'? Or perhaps you didn't notice that, or the abandonment of the thread by other people?
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brian
brian
Guest
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| veeeight, since we're playing nicely again, my intention was never to score points, |
In complete contrast, my contribution was almost entirely devoted to scoring points in a petty vindictive manner due to being hacked off with veeeight's arrogant patronising posts on another thread.
Should know better and will now depart the scene, sorry folks.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| little tiger, good question. My comments were totally snow based. I've never skied plastic, but would imagine between the flatness and extra drag it very well could make a difference and require some extra skating type transitions. GrahamN? |
Exactly - and plastic was the context of my earlier question/assertion (as I'd hoped the opening phrase had indicated, and the reference to veeeight's caveat was when he raised the question of possible differences between the surfaces in his reply to elbrus, back on page 5.) BTW, and FYI, BARTS is the British ARTifical Slope Seeding system (or words to that effect), and while the correlation's not particularly good, it's about 100-120 points more than FIS.
slikedges a straight line is certainly the shortest way down a slope, but I'm not at all sure it's the fastest on a surface like Dendix - I'm pretty sure that the faster guys (and it even feels that way for me, when I get it right) get down the slope faster through the course than just letting yourself straight run, as they're working it. One reason people don't really like straight courses, there's not a huge amount you can do to go faster when there are no curves to work on. There are also plenty of courses where you pole push (not just plant) and maybe skate as well, between each gate! As I said, my suspicion (although I have no hard evidence for this) is that about 100-120 points is where you need to be putting in work to go faster.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| slikedges a straight line is certainly the shortest way down a slope, but I'm not at all sure it's the fastest on a surface like Dendix - I'm pretty sure that the faster guys (and it even feels that way for me, when I get it right) get down the slope faster through the course than just letting yourself straight run, as they're working it. One reason people don't really like straight courses, there's not a huge amount you can do to go faster when there are no curves to work on. There are also plenty of courses where you pole push (not just plant) and maybe skate as well, between each gate! As I said, my suspicion (although I have no hard evidence for this) is that about 100-120 points is where you need to be putting in work to go faster. |
Is staying on edges quicker than running flat skis because of much reduced friction?
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rob@rar, On snow, P-Tex slides much quicker than metal, hence race skis have much thinner edges to reduce the amount of metal.
Dunno about dendix though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, good point. Quite possibly. We need ski here as he's probably got most experience in this. Maybe rather than having a self-waxing ski we need one with an all metal base (although a steady stream of Notwax along the base will probably work wonders).
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| slikedges wrote: |
| FastMan, there's no faster way down the hill than straight down, so trying not to get in the way of gravity is always going to be the goal, but going round corners naturally requires getting in the way of gravity and it's a question of how to do it. Your post above is the only well explained (as usual) post on the racer's perspective so far and perhaps I'm misunderstanding all this but I'm not sure that there's a difference between speed generating and not speed dumping when it comes to for instance getting the body to go down the flow line. |
slikedges, perhaps some examples will help clarify what I'm saying about the difference between "generating" and "not dumping" speed. Note, all my comments are snow skiing based.
Speed generating moves: Skating,,, pole pushing,,, fore/aft manipulation,,, forward arm thrusting.
Speed dumping actions: Bad line, harsh turn initiation (jamming), sloppy carves, over turning, double turns, poorly timed pivots, poor aerodynamics.
Now the comments on them:
When I say skating, I'm not talking about the skating done out of the starting gate to get up to speed. Rather, I'm talking about a power skate at the end of a turn, Stenmark style. Back in the day of straight skis such a skate was a useful tactic, as it greatly reduced the speed dumping pivot/feather needed at the top of the turn, while adding a little boost of speed. Now, with smaller radius skis, skating has become much less needed or used. There's so much more lateral movement of the CM and hip angulated positions now, it makes it difficult to fit such a move in and not lose the plot. Straight skis required a more upright CM position and more knee angulation, so it was a better fit. The power skate still has it's uses today, but it's mainly on the straighter/flatter sections of a slalom course.
Pole pushing, beyond the first couple gates, has never been a very productive idea. It disrupts edge engagements, balance, timing, smoothness, and after a certain speed threshold provides little/no actual speed enhancement.
When I speak of fore/aft manipulation, I'm speaking of the mega fore to aft turn exits, the likes of which used by Ted Ligety. Can they create speed? You bet, Ted has proved that on some runs. But for the average mortal, they create more problems than speed. It takes a highly skill and athletically gifed individual to pull off what Ted does, and guys like Rocca prove that it doesn't have to be done to win world cups. If skiing balanced, Rocca style, can win world cups, why should average Joe's introduce the risks associated with mega fore/aft manipulation tactics? Answer: they shouldn't.
Forward arm thrusting is a means of directing the energy of turn release into the exit line of a turn. A speed enhancing tactic. Check out the Cuche freeskiing video in this link: http://www.youcanski.com/video/video_index_en.htm
This is another speed generating tactic that, while of limited benefit, introduces other possible negative side affects, such as balance disruption and elongated transitions. If executed skillfully, all well and good. But it's really not necessary to the extent Cuche demonstrates, as proven by other first seed WC racers, and adds little in comparison the that which can be lost in the speed dumping side of the equation.
Which leads me into the speed dumping culprits.
Bad line. Of course, we all know that. Too round and you're fighting gravity more than necessary, and adding distance to your trip.
Harsh initiations. This is the hard edge sets upon first edge engagement of a new turn. Racers call it "jamming". Anything done harshly creates more friction/resistance, and dumps speed. The key is to be as soft and subtle at turn initiation as possible, whether arc to arc or pivot entry. Building edge angle and pressure gradually is the ticket.
Sloppy carves. This is the carve that has an element of steering in it. This is a major speed dumping problem, and one that is highly focused on in developing racers. The cleaner the carve, the less ski to snow resistance created, the faster the racer. This is why I've said in other writings here and elsewhere, that racers who steer don't win.
Over turning. It's possible to ski a proper line, yet be slower than others who ski the same line. It has to do with the timing of the release. The problem is what I call over turning. It's hanging on the edge too long, so that release energy is directed up the hill, or even straight up into the skier, rather than forward into the exit line of travel. This is hard to see, and even harder to coach/correct. Learning timing to this degree is a tricky issue. It's just more a WOW thing, when you first feel it, you know.
Double turns. Very common, and very slow. It's starting the turn too soon, engaging the edges, then realizing you're too early with it and having to back of the edge, slide sideways , then re-engage. Obviously slow, with the second engagement and added sliding. This is why coaches tell racers to wait for the rise line to start their turns.
Poorly timed pivots. Related to double turns. The difference is that double turns commonly refer to arc to arc entries. But the same negative affects apply.
And poor aerodynamics. Obviously, if you stand up tall and act like a sail during times in the course when assuming a less wind sucking position would be feasible, you're dumping speed you need not dump.
Now, eliminate all those speed dumping issues and speed generating will be of little concern, as you're standing on the podium.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| FastMan wrote: |
| This is why coaches tell racers to wait for the rise line to start their turns. |
Thanks for those comments, lots to try to remember.
A question regarding when to initiate the turn if you're late out of the previous turn (invariably happens on every run I do). Should I still try to initiate the next turn at the rise line? Is there a particular approach you can take to catch up with the gates or once you're late you're going to be late for every subsequent turn? What I think I do now is initiate the turn after the rise line because I'm late and force the skis round as best I can (dumping lots of speed in the process).
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wear The Fox Hat, i have tried to get things moving there, it was a good topic idea....
Hurtle, boy oh boy you do like an arguement, i was just offering a suggestion as to why we had so much discord....
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| FastMan wrote: |
| The power skate still has it's uses today, but it's mainly on the straighter/flatter sections of a slalom course. |
Remember that a plastic slope is effectively "flatter" for any given slope angle than the equivalent slope on snow, because of the greater friction.
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You know it makes sense.
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| FastMan wrote: |
Over turning. It's possible to ski a proper line, yet be slower than others who ski the same line. It has to do with the timing of the release. The problem is what I call over turning. It's hanging on the edge too long, so that release energy is directed up the hill, or even straight up into the skier, rather than forward into the exit line of travel. This is hard to see, and even harder to coach/correct. Learning timing to this degree is a tricky issue. It's just more a WOW thing, when you first feel it, you know.
. |
 ah is that what was happening when I was too late starting the transitions... when I got it timed better it felt different... ??
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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rob@rar wrote:
| Quote: |
Thanks for those comments, lots to try to remember.
A question regarding when to initiate the turn if you're late out of the previous turn (invariably happens on every run I do). Should I still try to initiate the next turn at the rise line? Is there a particular approach you can take to catch up with the gates or once you're late you're going to be late for every subsequent turn? What I think I do now is initiate the turn after the rise line because I'm late and force the skis round as best I can (dumping lots of speed in the process). |
The goal after getting late is to get back on line with a little speed dumping as possible. Sometimes there will be room to stay clean on the edge, though low, and gradually get it back together within the next few gates. That should always be the first option to be explored and pursued. Some of the dumbfounding athletic displays we see Bode do are the result of trying to do just that. Making every effort to avoid getting harsh on the edges and dumping speed.
But some situations WILL require a move that dumps speed, just to stay in the course. When that situation arises, all rules of line/etc. go out the window, and you do what you need to do to stay in the game. I wish I could find the video of Steve Mahre winning his Olympic silver way back when. An awesome display of linked athletic recoveries. This is when all the skill training that's been banked into muscle memory bursts forth and pulls your a$$ out of the fire.
My concern, though, is your indication that this "invariably happens on every run I do". Something is going on that needs addressing. A few things pop to mind. Focus on rhythm changes and sudden changes in pitch during course inspection, and make a strong mental note of them. Make a plan begin making your adjustments in line and balance before you actually get to these crucial points. Look ahead as you run the course so you will see what's coming, see the crucial points you noted in your inspection, and prepare for them. It could be a matter of trying to run too straight a line, and the course eventually catching up with you and issuing it's punishment. Or it could be a balance issue, perhaps getting caught on your heels. Just a few possibilities, but you need to get down to the bottom of what's repeatedly getting you into these predicaments.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 19-09-07 5:53; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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| little tiger wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
Over turning. It's possible to ski a proper line, yet be slower than others who ski the same line. It has to do with the timing of the release. The problem is what I call over turning. It's hanging on the edge too long, so that release energy is directed up the hill, or even straight up into the skier, rather than forward into the exit line of travel. This is hard to see, and even harder to coach/correct. Learning timing to this degree is a tricky issue. It's just more a WOW thing, when you first feel it, you know.
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ah is that what was happening when I was too late starting the transitions... when I got it timed better it felt different... ?? |
Yep, exactly. When you were doing the arc to arc tuck turns through the jello training course, you had it right, and were experiencing a strong forward release of energy at the end of your turns.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, thanks for that. I think my two main problems are dropping back on my heels making everything a bit more difficult, and not enough experience to read a course to know how to use my limited technique to best advantage. I'll look at the Mahre video although I fear that I have trouble with every word in the phrase "linked athletic recoveries"!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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FastMan, I think you allude to a good point, in which many skiers look at WC footage or stills, and think that that's the WC technique they have to emulate. Instead, what they are seeing are the athletes *reacting* to the situation, and yes, in many cases, it is a series of linked athletic recoveries!
For me, one of the questions to ask when viewing is "Is it intent, or outcome"
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Wed 19-09-07 8:58; edited 1 time in total
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
Hurtle,
| Quote: |
This is not a how-to-ski thread (it never was), it's a how skiing works thread
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I think that is spot on a perhaps the source of the irritation between you and others as they were looking at things from a different perspective. |
skimottaret, It may be of some interest, another (well known) ski forum have split their equivalent of the "Bend ze Knees" forums into two sections, "Ski Instruction & Coaching" and "Ski Technique and Analysis" precisely because of people getting lost in the noise. It seems to be working quite well, but not for one moment am I suggesting sH's do the same!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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veeeight, thinking back on various threads that seems to be a common theme of disagreement.. We always seem to end up in a "keep it simple please" back and forth but i dont think that there is as much discussion on the two sections to warrant splitting things up...
The coaching type threads have been dying on the vine. WTFH admirably tried to get one going and other than teaching peeps what brakes are for there has been little interest in coaching ideas
All the people who slag off the more technically minded here on hard analysis dont contribute on the "softer" issues like teaching and learning...
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FYI: I think it may be useful to give our racing experience for a bit of context:
rob@rar has done a few weeks intensive GS training on snow over the last few years. Is a nice tidy skier. Has recently started SL training on plastic.
GrahamN started SL training on plastic just over two years ago, 1-2 1-2 hour sessions a week, and has completed about 20 races at Regional level, and this year a couple at National. Started from a much lower technical base than Rob - certainly as far as piste skiing, as is/was primarily an off-piste/backcountry skier. Has had 3-4 days SL training on snow, and one of the same GS weeks as Rob.
| FastMan wrote: |
| The goal after getting late is to get back on line with a little speed dumping as possible. Sometimes there will be room to stay clean on the edge, though low, and gradually get it back together within the next few gates. That should always be the first option to be explored and pursued. |
I've been told that "that works fine for GS, but for SL you need to do whatever's required to get back on line by the next gate". I guess, as with most things, it depends on circumstances. If you're just coming up to a flat section, dumping speed is the worst possible idea, as you'll get punished for that on every gate until you hit another steep bit, so staying late for another gate or two is probably the less damaging opion. I also find that coming late into a vertical combination isn't too bad for me, as one of my few strong points is "fast feet" so I can normally recover through the combination - although that's getting less easy as I get faster.
Question I really ought to know the answer to: what's the rise line  ? If the projection of the fall line above the gate you're about to turn around, isn't that way too late to start your turn? We did an exercise last year where we had to start the turn as we went through the fall line below the gate we'd just passed - made a huge difference. This may be specific to the typical dryslope corridor course spacing - typically 2-2.5 metres offset - but shouldn't you still be starting your turn no later than a couple of metres prior to the (SL) gate? - and even that sounds a bit late to me.
rob@rar, "you were too late all through the course" is a phrase I'm very familiar with . [Little bit of a gripe here]. OK I know that - it was very obvious. What I need to know from the coach is not that I am late, but why and what I have to do to fix it. Also, "you took that way too straight/your line was way too optimistic" - again I know that, and that wasn't the line I wanted to take, but those were the tightest turns as I could actually make. The closest I got to receiving any explanation was gnomic utterances about "balance" - most probably correct but not very helpful.  [/gripe].
Where I have solved those problems though they have come through:
a) sharper edges so the ski will actually hold the pressure and edge angles needed to make the turn;
b) better balance of pressure between inside and outside foot and getting ankles flexed more;
c) gaining the confidence to get onto the inside edge well before the fall line, so there's more of the turn done before that line, and so have to do less when coming out of it.
Mentally, the most important thing for me was training in a reflex: "if it's starting to go wrong, try to kneel on the fronts of your skis". Still doesn't work all the time: in a session a couple of weeks ago I was having enormous trouble getting around a wide course. One of the coaches was telling me I was overturning and holding onto the turn way too long (as FastMan explained above). This was of course true, but again a symptom rather than a cause, and without doing that I would have been turning inside the gate. The problem ended up being blunt edges - a couple of runs over with a file half way through the session and everything changed.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Wed 19-09-07 20:25; edited 1 time in total
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Course Assessment/Inspection. I would say this is one of the few "race techniques" that doesn't really have much of a general application (OK looking at terrain and identifying that you probably want to turn before that cliff could be an analogue, but that's stretching a point rather too far). I'm also completely rubbish at it. I think I'm pretty reasonable at identifying the pinch points and those where you need to be carrying speed etc., but what I'm completely cr@p at is working out how those pinch points etc relate to my own ability (not made any easier at present by the fact that that ability is changing pretty rapidly atm). While the reasons for the standard race format (inspect only, no practice runs) is understandable on snow, it does mean that there's a significant non-skiing component in getting a good time through the course - and the one valid counter-argument I can think of for not using a race in a technical test. Actually on plastic the course normally gets faster - as it gradually turns green from 500 pairs of skis dumping their loads of yellow and blue-coloured goop and polish down virtually the same line . This is one reason I like our entry-level regional race format, where you get practice runs through the course prior to the timed runs. This way your time is more related to your actual skiing skill, rather than a combination of that and your visual planning ability. And I assure everyone - it in no way reduces the element of competition!
(This is not a though a point I want to got into battle over, and I certainly accept that the requirement to react fast to the unexpected situations you encounter as you go down the course definitely tests how solid your technique is.)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, A lot of your points are specific to plastic.
On snow, SL courses tend to be on fairly steep slopes so you can get going again after dumping speed.
The rise line is usually the correct place to turn, but to manage this you have to start thinking about turning earlier. Telling trainees to turn just after the previous gate is one way of providing a mental trigger so that they will end up turning on the rise line.
Snow courses don't need to have gate combinations set to catch people out, you will get enough time differences just from avoiding mistakes and how much the course cuts up. Inspection becomes more a matter of remembering the basic pattern than of planning what to do at each gate.
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FAQ
), there's one it doesn't answer: What happened to applying pressure early? Firstly, do you even recognise it? Should it have never existed and has been debunked? Was it misguided and got superseded? Was it spurious and got subsumed? Is it still there but been set into a new philosophical framework? BTW do feel free to redirect me to a book to buy or webpages etc if there's just too much miscontrued to know where to begin! 