 Poster: A snowHead
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Apart from WTFH's comments, this thread seems to have a very European perspective. Many of the suggestions have actually already been implemented in some North American resorts.
In my experience, all of these things are common in North America:
- Free mountain tours with locals, typically retired folk who've been skiing the slopes for years
- Whiteboards on lift stations with write-ups about the condition of runs from the top, often updated several times per day
- Whiteboards at the entrance to expert runs describing the condition of the run and hazards you can expect to encounter
- Warning notices and ropes (you're allowed to squeeze past) on easier runs that have unusually poor conditions
- Warnings on the trail map about particularly treacherous runs such as recommendations not to ski alone or to take a shovel and tranceiver
I find it hard to believe that these things could possibly detract from anyone's enjoyment of skiing. And they show that PG's concerns about dynamite and closed runs to be nonsense - the US and Canada are much more litigious societies than France, yet many resorts there provide runs such as the Big Couloir in Big Sky (without the need to procure the services of a guide) that only a tiny proportion of Snowheads would be able to survive.
It can be done, folks... it is being done.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The Abominable snowHead, or pants that change colour according to gradient? Maybe some folks have those already!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Jonny Jones, I'm with you on this. We had a fine old time, mostly off "normal" piste in Utah without a guide and in reasonable (I feel) safety. The idea of gated access (and I'm sure for many people the other points you make) would only enhance European ski areas I reckon.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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well, yes, but no In fact, you've missed easy, moderate, hard very difficult, mild severe and very severe that I can think of right now. Of which only very severe (VS) is really used. Technical grades would be bench marked at around 4a for a severe with technical grades below 4a not used.
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Now how did I miss VS - when I used to climb VS was about the limit of my leading ability, though i did manage the occasional HVS at Avon. I missed out easy and moderate as you could push your granny up an easy in her wheel chair  and a moderate ain't a lot harder.
What I was trying to say in my long winded roundabout way was that climbing grades are subjective and vary in standard from area to area much like ski grades.
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If a beginner, or someone not used to 1m of fresh powder, was to just go up and see that there was a warning of deep snow, but thought - it's a blue run, I can do this, then discovers that it's way more difficult than that, then you have a major problem.
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My second or third weeks skiing we had this problem at S Gervais- we quickly realised to keep of the blues as we went no where on them  . Stuck to steeper stuff where we could actually move. Annoyingly I've not had as good deep powder on any of my weeks in France since 
Personally I'm perfectly happy with the grades as they are particularly if they stick a note at the top, or on a blackboard at the lift of any particular hazards. The resorts I've skied always seemed to do that anyway.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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rob@rar.org.uk, it's not a frequent regrading - it only occurs either very early/late season when trees may be starting to appear through again, or after big dumps, on runs which aren't pisted as often as the main ones.
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Nick_C,
Quite...!! And all too often people don't want to take responsibilty.
I think I can say that I have never ever blamed someone else for taking me down somewhere that I didn't want to be on the mountain.
Quite a few may have blamed me, but then they did ask me which way I thought to go.. and my mates will be laughing at this because we've ended up in some scrapes... but people must understand its not always a big adventure playground.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Apart from WTFH's comments, this thread seems to have a very European perspective. Many of the suggestions have actually already been implemented in some North American resorts.
In my experience, all of these things are common in North America:
- Free mountain tours with locals, typically retired folk who've been skiing the slopes for years
- Whiteboards on lift stations with write-ups about the condition of runs from the top, often updated several times per day
- Whiteboards at the entrance to expert runs describing the condition of the run and hazards you can expect to encounter
- Warning notices and ropes (you're allowed to squeeze past) on easier runs that have unusually poor conditions
- Warnings on the trail map about particularly treacherous runs such as recommendations not to ski alone or to take a shovel and tranceiver
I find it hard to believe that these things could possibly detract from anyone's enjoyment of skiing. And they show that PG's concerns about dynamite and closed runs to be nonsense - the US and Canada are much more litigious societies than France, yet many resorts there provide runs such as the Big Couloir in Big Sky (without the need to procure the services of a guide) that only a tiny proportion of Snowheads would be able to survive.
It can be done, folks... it is being done. |
well quite, and many stations in Europe do some or all of those things 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Apart from WTFH's comments, this thread seems to have a very European perspective. |
Well spotted!
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Many of the suggestions have actually already been implemented in some North American resorts. |
And that is why some European resorts will be fervently against the idea, to the point of ignoring the possibility that it might even be good.
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Is there a Reader's Digest version of this thread?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ise wrote: |
| Jonny Jones wrote: |
Apart from WTFH's comments, this thread seems to have a very European perspective. Many of the suggestions have actually already been implemented in some North American resorts.
In my experience, all of these things are common in North America:
- Free mountain tours with locals, typically retired folk who've been skiing the slopes for years
- Whiteboards on lift stations with write-ups about the condition of runs from the top, often updated several times per day
- Whiteboards at the entrance to expert runs describing the condition of the run and hazards you can expect to encounter
- Warning notices and ropes (you're allowed to squeeze past) on easier runs that have unusually poor conditions
- Warnings on the trail map about particularly treacherous runs such as recommendations not to ski alone or to take a shovel and tranceiver
I find it hard to believe that these things could possibly detract from anyone's enjoyment of skiing. And they show that PG's concerns about dynamite and closed runs to be nonsense - the US and Canada are much more litigious societies than France, yet many resorts there provide runs such as the Big Couloir in Big Sky (without the need to procure the services of a guide) that only a tiny proportion of Snowheads would be able to survive.
It can be done, folks... it is being done. |
well quite, and many stations in Europe do some or all of those things |
Where does all of them?
(I'd be interested to ski there)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
Free mountain tours with locals, typically retired folk who've been skiing the slopes for years
- Whiteboards on lift stations with write-ups about the condition of runs from the top, often updated several times per day
- Whiteboards at the entrance to expert runs describing the condition of the run and hazards you can expect to encounter
- Warning notices and ropes (you're allowed to squeeze past) on easier runs that have unusually poor conditions
- Warnings on the trail map about particularly treacherous runs such as recommendations not to ski alone or to take a shovel and tranceiver
I find it hard to believe that these things could possibly detract from anyone's enjoyment of skiing. And they show that PG's concerns about dynamite and closed runs to be nonsense - the US and Canada are much more litigious societies than France, yet many resorts there provide runs such as the Big Couloir in Big Sky (without the need to procure the services of a guide) that only a tiny proportion of Snowheads would be able to survive.
It can be done, folks... it is being done.
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I suspect some of these things are an example of disneyfication that people do not want. Generally lift tickets in NA are a lot more expensive to cover a lot less territory. To mark and label every hazard in a domain as big as many European ones would cost a lot of money and possibly lead to a tamer experience, for better or worse.
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| Quote: |
Where does all of them?
(I'd be interested to ski there)
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Panorama. If you haven't been there, it's well worth a trip.
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You know it makes sense.
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T Bar, which US resorts have you experienced this sort of thing, and seen it as bad?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
I suspect some of these things are an example of disneyfication that people do not want. Generally lift tickets in NA are a lot more expensive to cover a lot less territory. To mark and label every hazard in a domain as big as many European ones would cost a lot of money and possibly lead to a tamer experience, for better or worse.
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That's nonsense. Have you ever skied in North America, or are you just prejudiced. No-one forces you to read the information, but iot's there if you want it. It's not remotely Disneyfied.
The size of the resort has nothing to do with the cost of these measures - big resorts have more staff and sell more lift tickets. What's more relevant is skier density, and that's certainly higher in Europe. Apart from possible language issues, it should be easier this side of the pond.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's all about piste colour trends and colour charts. Magnolia is quite popular.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat,
I am not saying it is bad, it is a different approach for better or worse, it is almost certainly a more expensive one particularly per acre covered. I would not like to have to pay USA prices personally as I have a family of four and like to do as much skiing as possible.
I have a lot less experience of North American resorts than yourself and would certainly love to ski some of the powder that occurs a bit more frequently over there.
The resorts that I have skied are Jackson Hole, Grand Targhee and Whistler, did I enjoy them yes. But in all honesty I was a bit underwhelmed by JH compared to my expectations. Compared with European skiing the inbounds was tamer than many european resorts off piste. (I don't mean easier, there were runs that were outwith my capabilities). There ws never an away from it all feeling that you can experience in Europe. I preferresd Whistler where you could seem to get away from it a wee bit better, in both these resorts the queues were a lot worse than in Europe as well though they are I believe untypical in that respect.
That as I say is a personal feeling I don't think that the North American way of doing things is a bad thing and if I could afford it I would probably give it another bash Utah sounds great but I certainly would not welcome all aspects of it in Europe.
This does not mean that I don't think a better grading of run for beginners/ early intermediates would not be a good thing over here I do and have said so earlier in the thread. 
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 30-03-06 17:40; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Brown trousers have been alluded to several times as well. Probably go well with magnolia.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The Abominable David Goldsmith snowHead, Is this the only way that you are now prepared to contribute to this forum?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Jonny Jones,
I had not read your reply when I wrote my post above but as you can see I have a limited experience of North American skiing and possibly am prejudiced but I did feel it was a bit disneyfied, not always for the worse but not to everyones taste. It is a matter of record that for whatever reason North American lift passes are more expensive I suspect some of this is a reflection of the work that goes into keeping there (smaller areas) as closely supervised as they are.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| The Abominable David Goldsmith snowHead, Is this the only way that you are now prepared to contribute to this forum? |
Sad, isn't it!
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| eng_ch wrote: |
| xyzpaul wrote: |
| If you are afraid that a run could be too difficult due to variables such as weather, busyness, bumpyness, icyness, "inconsistency of gradings", etc. then simply don't do it. |
Which means if you have come across one red that was too difficult for you, you're relegated to blues etc. We all have to learn to free-ski at some point, just like you have to learn to drive unaccompanied. What's wrong with aiding that process? I don't agree PG's logic that a slap of paint will inevitably lead to nanny-state skiing and litigation, although I appreciate the concern. If it hasn't in the US so far, it's hardly likely to in Europe.
As far as I'm concerned, the conditions that might pertain on any given day are a separate issue and part of learning mountaincraft - I'm just talking about the constants of gradient and width, not the variables |
no - it means you probably want to be on blue runs for practice....
your instructor will most likely take you on red runs at some point in the lesson (assuming you really are up to skiing red runs of course)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which means if you have come across one red that was too difficult for you, you're relegated to blues etc. That's a good way to progress - not. |
As easiski wrote (and told me during lessons) the best place to learn to ski a red properly is on a blue or a green. Or words to that effect. She's not alone - several instructors have told me more or less the same thing. |
and an ex- world cup racer told me essentiially the same thing "you are a good skier.... so we are going to the easy runs to practice... you can only improve technique when you do NOT have to think about the run" (meaning that I could devote ALL my attention to the details of what we were working on not to being in balance and making turns) ...
now we did not stay on the easy runs - but we did spend the majority of our time there perfecting technical skills and then skiing some harder terrain to see how well I could hold it all together under pressure....
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Our instructor tells us we can go anywhere that's marked on the piste map in the 3V. I just don't believe him yet! And with him we practice technical stuff on steeper blues and reds now. For example, I have no qualms about spending an entire lesson on blacks but then won't ski the same pistes when free-skiing. Go figure. But there you go - skiing's a mental game for a lot of us
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Forget the people that run the resorts, let's sort this ourselves !
Here's the plan:
1) Open a forum page for every resort (admistrators get on with that).
2) Open threads in each forum for every run in that resort (adminstrators get on with that too).
3) Everyone when you're away skiing, make a few short notes about each run you do.
4) When you get home dump your notes, and maybe a statement of your own ability, to establish some perspective, onto the relevant thread.
5) Before next trip print out all threads related to your resort and make your run choices from all this lovely info.
This is afterall supposed to be an info site.
Hooray do I win any free beer! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beeryletcher, If snowHeads sponsors me, I will willingly undertake this work single handed over the next few seasons. After all it makes sense if there is some corrolation across the resorts 
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Too late, I've already applied for the patent rights, and booked my flights. 
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You know it makes sense.
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Ray Zorro, will there be a correlation? Don't know what your current ability is, but I'd expect you to a $h1t hot skier by the end of the exercise.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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laundryman,
well two out of the three words apply already so I'm nearly there  .
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ray Zorro, Never mind 2 out of three ain't bad as the "fat lady would sing" 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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IncogSkiSno, no, please don't sing, or this thread will have to end
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hey, I've just noticed the clock hasn't gone forwards an hour on this site !!
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Morning all dull and wet here!
OOps thought I was at the Dawn Chorus
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 30-03-06 21:53; edited 1 time in total
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beeryletcher, I think you have to set your time zone manually in your profile.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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laundryman:
Oh yes, so you do, thanks. How quaint.
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| boredsurfin wrote: |
| Morning all dull and wet here |
Are you describing yourself? 
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FAQ
Guess must have been a 'Quote n Paste' error 
.. In fact ... did you say this either? 
Very precise whiteboard announcements on several runs around Les Arcs this morning. As 
