 Poster: A snowHead
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@lizzard and practice putting on snow chains!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is a few days time still, but I'm driving down to ADH on the 31st Dec/1st Jan - since that isn't a change over day, I'm hoping the traffic won't be that bad - any local experts have any views?
Thanks!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Stevo wrote: |
| Snow socks? Saw lots of them hanging off wheels, flailing around and in a mushy heap in the road. Maybe OK for getting out of a car park, but they don't seem to survive 50 miles of compulsory use on bumpy ice or mushy Tarmac. After yesterday, I'm sticking (literally) with my RUD chains. Awesome. |
On our first visit to the Alps a few years ago, we were in a Rear Wheel Drive Mercedes E class with Summer tyres. Before we left, I put a pair of Autosocks in the boot, "just in case" (not knowing much about driving in snow). When we got part way up the mountain, I pulled over and put the socks on...and they were superb. Drove for over 150 miles in total on the socks, only taking them off when we got back down the mountain to where there was no snow. We easily had the same level of grip as chains. When we got home, the socks went into the washing machine and then were used again for the next trip -- as it happened we only needed them for a few miles that time.
Since then we had a Landrover Discovery for a couple of years, which on AT tyres didn't need chains or socks at all (the car was amazing, I even helped tow some locals out of tricky situations), and now we're back to a Mercedes -- the only reason I've gone with chains is that Autosock don't make socks that officially fit the rear wheel size of this car (265/35/18 IIRC), although we're on decent winter tyres this time and I don't expect to use the chains. I trust the autosocks and think they're a good investment. I know that in some places the Gendarmes don't accept them (although they should if you have the certificate of conformance with you), but they really do work as claimed.
-simon
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Not local, or an expert  , but drive three or four times a year to ski resorts, and always travel mid-week - rarely have problems. Even when serious snow a few years back, because traffic was lighter no serious delays. Just make sure you have the equipment others have suggested, car maintained eg tyre pressures, anti-freeze - suitable washer fluid for low temps, and have warm clothes easily accessible.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I still can't believe that people hesitate on getting winter tyres. As a result, I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who attempts to drive to the alps on summer tyres, especially with a family onboard. It's totally irresponsible.
I have been driving down to the Alps 3 times a year for the last 10 years. Every trip on winter tyres and, regardless of the conditions, I have never had to stop to put chains on. Just sailed on thru while others have been stranded by the roadside.
And I don't buy the "cost" argument either because if you buy winter tyres and run them thru the whole of winter, you double the life of your summer tyres so in the end the total cost of tyres over 3 years is exactly the same as if you just ran summer tyres only.
So don't hesitate, get them.
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@mcloke, no, there will be nothing like the traffic which complicated Saturday.
I flatter myself as being good at chains. But I always practice before leaving my home on the mild south coast, much to the mirth of the neighbours. Yesterday I sat in my car for a while watching the french man in front faffing with his chains surrounded by the other occupants of the car giving advice. After a bit I decided it would be prudent to put mine on rather than sit there feeling superior with my winter tyres. I then drove back and forth a few metres and tightened the both twice and drove off past the still faffing frog.
It,s worth buying decent chains not the cheap supermarket ones but practice in easy conditions is essential. A small child,s spade is useful for clearing snow round wheels. If they sit in even an inch or two it,s harder to get chains on and the side road the gendarme directed me to on Saturday was quite snowy.
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| Chris_G wrote: |
| And I don't buy the "cost" argument either because if you buy winter tyres and run them thru the whole of winter, you double the life of your summer tyres so in the end the total cost of tyres over 3 years is exactly the same as if you just ran summer tyres only. |
I agree in principle, of course. But to be pedantic, winter tyres wear down more quickly than summer tyres when they're used in sub-optimal conditions (warmer temperatures), because they are made of blander material. So deciding when to switch them over is important, and if you live in warmer climes, even fairly locally to the mountains, then merely the drive from home to the foothills can cause disproportionate wear and tear. I accept that that might be less of an issue in the UK though 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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joie maligne
But there is no everyday translation, much like there isn't in English..............
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@pam w, After a slight snag with our chains in the early hours of Sunday I have some sympathy with anyone struggling with chains. We have put them on many different vehicles over many years yet in the dark with a torch and falling snow we inadvertently got one little bit twisted behind the wheel on the second one we were putting on. It took quite a while to work out what had happened and put it right!
Our Audi 4x4 on 'normal' tyres coped just fine last Saturday in all the blizzards over the little pass out of Morzine, and just fine up to and down from Megeve even though most vehicles needed chains. We only put our chains on finally arriving in the early hours going up to La Tania because we did not know the road or if it had any particularly steep bits.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I have every sympathy with folk arriving on summer tires.
Some car hire places it is very difficult to rent cars with winter tires.
My own experience of changing between summer and winter tires is that even if you do have the storage space to run two sets of tires there are quite a few tires get damaged during removal.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Looks like I can get Avon Ice Touring STs fitted at short notice for £450. Any thoughts on this tyre?
(Although Morzine forcast now looks like heavy rain on Saturday!)
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@FIRSTOFTHEGIANTS,
http://www.tyrereviews.co.uk/Tyre/Avon/Ice-Touring-ST.htm
any winter tyre ( by a reputable make ) will be better than summer tyres
For the last three years I have run Vredestein Quatrac 3 all season tyres and used them all year round on a Mondeo estate. They have the snowflake and mountain symbol on them. Have got me up snow covered mountain roads in French alps when others are chaining up. Just put a new set on this November. I also carry Thule K summits and a set of snow socks, as I don't like to take chances. Good luck with your journey. You may want to look at a website called oponeo, they have loads of winter tyres, next day delivery and go to a small independent garage like I do who charge £12 per tyre to fit and balance
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You know it makes sense.
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| CaravanSkier wrote: |
| Our Audi 4x4 on 'normal' tyres coped just fine last Saturday in all the blizzards over the little pass out of Morzine, and just fine up to and down from Megeve even though most vehicles needed chains. We only put our chains on finally arriving in the early hours going up to La Tania because we did not know the road or if it had any particularly steep bits. |
People get caught out with 4x4s and summer tyres because the car will 'go' perfectly well, but won't 'stop' in the way a car on winter tyres will.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@James the Last, Indeed you have to know your car and how to drive in ice and snow. We did have to stop a little more suddenly than ideal on a couple of occasions but the car behaved itself very well. Driver experience is perhaps the most valuable tool in such situations. 
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Poster: A snowHead
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Got home to bed in Edinburgh at 3am this morning having left Meribel Les Allues at 6.30am on Saturday morning. We were in own car driving to Chambery to leave the car there to be picked up by son flying out from UK to join his brother in Meribel. He landed in Lyon as planned about 9am and we easily reached Chambery by 9am. All OK so far. Couldn't both get flights to same airport.
He eventually got on a coach from Lyon at 1pm and arrived Chambery at 6pm, normally a 1 hour journey. Jet2 very little help with our flight delay and had no idea if/when we might leave. Son took us to Chambery airport where we got a train to Geneva. Discovered all flights to Scotland were full for next 2 days (I know we should have checked on internet first). At least we found a hotel in Geneva rather than the sports hall used as emergency accommodation by those at the airport, then train back to Chambery and taxi back to airport. All Sunday Jet2 kept saying a flight would go back to Edinburgh. Pilot tried a couple of times but couldn't land because of wind so we were eventually bussed to Grenoble. Delays at Edinburgh on arrival but eventually home.
Son took until 4am to get to resort. At one point he did 4km in 2 hours! Lots of idiots on the road without snow tyres, chains or any sense. Our car is properly equipped and we didn't even need to use the chains as winter tyres were enough.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| T Bar wrote: |
I have every sympathy with folk arriving on summer tires.
Some car hire places it is very difficult to rent cars with winter tires.
My own experience of changing between summer and winter tires is that even if you do have the storage space to run two sets of tires there are quite a few tires get damaged during removal. |
I have no sympathy at all. If you don't have a car with winter tyres get a transfer.
Swapping tyres on the same rims is unnecessary when steel wheels are so cheap. Just buy 5 steel rims, also the savings in tyre price from running a narrower winter tyre will cover the cost of the rims.
People with summer tyres use chains in places that are not appropriate for chains, often blocking bends to fit them and crawling down the mountain at snails pace with huge tailbacks behind them when with winter tyres they could be driving at a more sensible speed safely without blocking the roads.
Chains should be left for situations like getting up steep driveways to chalets, not for driving on the roads with a bit of snow on. They are not a substitute for winter tyres.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Flaine skier, +1
All other arguments aside, the difference in grip between summer & winter tyres at temps below +7C is enormous, so winter tyres would probably be worth fitting even in non snowy England.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Chains should be left for situations like getting up steep driveways to chalets, not for driving on the roads with a bit of snow on. They are not a substitute for winter tyres.
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So when the Gendarme insist on using chains AND winter tyres do you ignore them?
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| halfhand wrote: |
| Quote: |
Chains should be left for situations like getting up steep driveways to chalets, not for driving on the roads with a bit of snow on. They are not a substitute for winter tyres.
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So when the Gendarme insist on using chains AND winter tyres do you ignore them? |
Usually, you tell them you have winter tyres and they let you through.
If they still insist on chains then you have to stop and put them on, but it's unnecessary 99% of the time and the gendarmes doing the checks know this and let you through.
If the road is busy and everyone else is using chains then it won't slow you down, it just wastes a few minutes to put them on and take them off again later.
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| Flaine skier wrote: |
| T Bar wrote: |
I have every sympathy with folk arriving on summer tires.
Some car hire places it is very difficult to rent cars with winter tires.
My own experience of changing between summer and winter tires is that even if you do have the storage space to run two sets of tires there are quite a few tires get damaged during removal. |
I have no sympathy at all. If you don't have a car with winter tyres get a transfer. |
I have sympathy with renters, i wonder why it seems so hard to rent with winter tyres, or rent chains on the rental. You'd think it would be in the hire cars companies interests to keep you moving. I did wonder if in Germany in it was just unspoken and free that winter tyres are fitted? France definitely seems happy to send you off on summer spec with not even a suggestion of an upgrade\chains and it only at Geneva you have the choice of swiss side.
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We drove down from Oz en Oisans (AdH satellite) on Saturday afternoon. On a hire car with winter tyres. No major delays for us going down but it was jammed going up the D1091 all the way from Grenoble. As many have said, biggest problem seemed to be people stopped in unsuitable places fitting their chains.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@a.j., yes, it wasn't easy finding a hire car with winter tyres - cost quite a bit more then the standard spec. But it paid off by letting us ski on Saturday and travel later rather than getting out before the snow arrived 
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Gendarmes generally more concerned with the very obviously unprepared. However, you NEVER ignore a gendarme instructions - 'yes, sir/no, sir/three bags full sir... ' Three years ago when my son (then aged 12) took pity on a motorist struggling with his chains and insisted on helping, a gendarme stopped, got chatting, and invited himself and his own 12 year old daughter to our chalet ( with bottle of local firewater) to practise English... Let's keep with the Entente Cordiale!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Flaine skier,
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Chains should be left for situations like getting up steep driveways to chalets, not for driving on the roads with a bit of snow on. |
If that were true then why would the police insist on motosrists using them on the roads up to the resorts. It's hardly just so you can get into your driveway. You certainly don't always need chains just because there is snow on the road but it's the idiot who wait until too late to fir their chains that cause half the problems.
| Quote: |
They are not a substitute for winter tyres.
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Indeed, and winter tyres are not a substiute for chains. It's not a question of 'either' ''or'. they are just different levels of enhanced grip. If you HAD to choose between one or the other then I suspect that normal tyres (with chains as necessary) will get you further than winter tyres with no chains. Whatever you use the most important thing is to fit them before you need them.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@Chris_G, it doesn't do to be smug. The conditions on Saturday were absolutely at the extreme, not because of the amount of snow but because it was one of the biggest transfer days of the year. I was told to put chains on my winter tyres and was glad I had them in the very difficult conditions I encountered, including passing stuck vehicles by getting well onto the deep snow. I was lucky because having bitten the bullet and starting my journey at 0630 and then reacting to conditions by throwing son onto public transport to find his own way to his job in courchevel I was back home by mid day. But later it didn't matter what vehicle you were driving or how extensive your experience of winter driving, you were stuck along with everybody else.
I absolutely don't buy the "chains are pointless with winter tyres"arguments. why would the skibus I travelled on this morning, which routinely manages fine on steep hills have put chains on since the big snowfall? Anybody who drives regularly on snowy roads and who has never lost traction with their winter tyres is lucky. And anybody who believes that roads throughout the alps - even main roads - will be kept free of snow is living in cloud cuckoo land.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Pyremaniac wrote: |
| Chris_G wrote: |
| And I don't buy the "cost" argument either because if you buy winter tyres and run them thru the whole of winter, you double the life of your summer tyres so in the end the total cost of tyres over 3 years is exactly the same as if you just ran summer tyres only. |
I agree in principle, of course. But to be pedantic, winter tyres wear down more quickly than summer tyres when they're used in sub-optimal conditions (warmer temperatures), because they are made of blander material. |
The other side of the coin is that 'summer' tyres wear extremely quickly in cold weather as they become very hard.
Whilst there is certainly an overall cost associated with running two sets of tyres (which increases if you also have separate rims, though that does save the cost / hassle of swapping tyres around on a single set of rims), I think it's worth it for the acknowledged benefits of using the appropriate tyres all year round
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@foxtrotzulu, i have a folding shovel as well. But the little spade is more wieldy in some situations.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Steilhang wrote: |
@Flaine skier, +1
All other arguments aside, the difference in grip between summer & winter tyres at temps below +7C is enormous, so winter tyres would probably be worth fitting even in non snowy England. |
Some anorak did a bit of research into exactly this question ...
http://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?t=102703
| Red Leon wrote: |
Over the 17 years covered by the data, the temperature in Cambridge at 7.30am was < 8C on an average of 144 days per year. The 6pm temperature was <8C on an average of 103 days per year
It would seem from these figures that, on average (again!) the temperature at either 7.30am or 6pm was such that winter tyres were likely to be beneficial on at least 40% of days (144/365). In reality, that proportion is likely to be higher because:
a)I think it’s unlikely that the performance of winter tyre compounds is noticeably inferior to summer compounds at temps immediately above 7C - there is probably a temperature range in which the difference in performance is negligible (maybe 7 – 10C?).
b)The figures do not take into account those warmer days when other conditions (eg rain rather than the temperature) would have made winter tyres beneficial
The conclusion:
The data suggests that the use of winter tyres is appropriate on maybe 50% of days in my (rather low & mild) part of the UK. That figure is probably higher for large parts of the UK which experience colder / wetter weather.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Keeping a small child in your boot all winter is inhumane! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I have absolutely no sympathy for anyone who didnt use a privat helicopter/caterpillar track combo to get them to the resort, If you cant afford that you shouldnt be skiing and you are just being selfish and inconsiderate trying to get there by any other means.
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@DaveMcSki, I actually just flew into Courchevel from Geneva - a 15-minute journey - with some people who couldn't get there by car on Saturday!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Not sure that there are to many parts of the UK or at least England that are much colder than Cambridge in winter.
My mother who was born and brought up there but lived plenty of other places always insisted that Cambridge was far colder in winter than anywhere else.
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@T Bar, I've lived in Cambridge for the past 18 years (and in fact used to be the maintainer of the weather station and data set that @Red Leon used) and definitely rate it as far warmer and dryer than other places I've lived such as Yorkshire. It is particularly noticeable in the plants that will grow happily here outdoors with no protection, that just wouldn't stand a chance elsewhere. Part of that is the lack of rainfall, but the general picture is much milder temperatures too. It can occasionally get extremely cold if the weather comes from the East, so perhaps that's what your mother meant. The data set used is also from a weather station in a fairly urban environment and so will read a bit higher than it would in the surrounding countryside.
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That' was 29 hours I won't get back. Lyon to the 3 valleys in 17 hours. No sleeping n route. Great now.
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Well. i'm with @T Bar's mother. I was in Cambridge for a few years as a lad, and found the only way of surviving the winters was a wonderful fur coat from the Oxfam Shop.
Its flat all round Cambridge: the wind comes in straight off the Siberian steppes (or whatever they are). Blooming Freezing. Much warmer when back in Scotland.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| T Bar wrote: |
Not sure that there are to many parts of the UK or at least England that are much colder than Cambridge in winter.
My mother who was born and brought up there but lived plenty of other places always insisted that Cambridge was far colder in winter than anywhere else. |
Hmm, no,not even a bit. Spent a fair bit of time there through uni and its a hell of a lot warmer than Sheffield (home) which in turn is warmer than the surrounding villages. London is a balmy tropical paradise though I always thought it was a joke\myth when I was a kid but London really is much warmer!
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 29-12-14 17:07; edited 1 time in total
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@T Bar, @Jonpim, +1 Nowhere I've lived has been as cold as Cambridge.
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