I suspect in time the ski club may well become just Fresh Tracks Ltd.
You believe that members of the SCGB have lost control of their Club to the extent that this could conceivably be an outcome?
I think that is an outcome many of us (Scgb members) are relaxed about. The FT off piste holidays and courses are excellent, I have made many friends and reliable ski buddies through them. If SCGB leaders role in France is restricted to holiday reps (which they are very good at) there may well be less incentive to do the leader training. It would be great if SCGB win their appeal and are able to act as they have in recent years but if not then we are left with Fresh Tracks
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
More media coverage of the ESF -v- SCGB verdict ...
Indeed though in the case of the Ski Club representatives are still sent to resorts to not lead their skiers [no, we don't understand why either] tour operators are collectively saving substantial ammounts of money by not supplying leaders and hosts. Rather more than the shared costs for the case and appeals. So long as all agree to follow French law then the case may well benefit their mutual bottom lines.
Frank McCusker, CEO of the Ski Club of Great Britain, said: " ... This is the outcome we expected. Thankfully the Ski Club’s Leader service in Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Andorra, Canada and America is unaffected by this outcome and is fully operational." He added: "We must thank everyone who has helped us to fight for the right to ski together socially. We will be continuing that fight."
There is no custodial sentence for Mr Piddlesden or the Club. This outcome means that the Ski Club will continue its adapted Ambassador programme in France, which has been changed in light of the ski hosting ban; Ambassadors help guests plan their day on the mountain, suggesting routes and organising instructors and guides for them.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Was SCGB rep Ken Piddlesden teaching members of his group to ski, when the gendarmes arrested him last April? Or did the Albertville court define him as an 'illegal ski instructor' because he was leading his group in a way that only a professionally-qualified instructor or guide can legally act, under French law? The difference between those two questions may, in essence, be academic.
Independent reportage of this case has been so sketchy that it is impossible to know what evidence was presented to the court, unless more information is released in the public domain.
Some SCGB members are insistent that Ken Piddlesden was not teaching, or could not have been teaching ...
--------------------------------------------------------
Marcia Nash:
Quote:
Should be easy enough to trace the people who were skiing with Ken and they would testify that he wasn't teaching.
And can't Leaders now return to leading as the benefits in kind argument didn't go against the Club and they don't teach?
Helen O'brien:
Quote:
If this report of the court proceedings is correct, then the appointed lawyer seems to be doing a very bad job. The club did not seem to say that he was being accused of "teaching" and this did not appear to be the prepared defence.
Can the Club clarify this for us ?
Whether Ken Piddlesden was giving ski technique guidance or piste navigation guidance may, in the court's eyes, have come to the same thing if only a ski instructor is legally allowed to provide these services to 'customers' of a commercial ski club (one with an increasingly commercial identity).
Theoretically, if I could advertise on here , free ski guiding at , say, La Plagne. And if happened to just be there for most of the season at my own expense, I could happily and legally take groups of people around. Maybe they might buy me a beer afterward, who knows .. nothing to do with the guiding.
It would be interesting to wear an official looking jacket and make a point of guiding my group past some ESF instructors ... I wonder what would happen ?
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
On the rocks wrote:
SCGB insider wrote:
George Jones wrote:
I suspect in time the ski club may well become just Fresh Tracks Ltd.
You believe that members of the SCGB have lost control of their Club to the extent that this could conceivably be an outcome?
I think that is an outcome many of us (Scgb members) are relaxed about. The FT off piste holidays and courses are excellent, I have made many friends and reliable ski buddies through them. If SCGB leaders role in France is restricted to holiday reps (which they are very good at) there may well be less incentive to do the leader training. It would be great if SCGB win their appeal and are able to act as they have in recent years but if not then we are left with Fresh Tracks
The answer above is better than any response I could make.
I do not use Fresh Tracks but it seems very popular with those who do. Wee Frank bigs up Fresh Tracks and selling opportunities at every opportunity.
The answer above is better than any response I could make. I do not use Fresh Tracks but it seems very popular with those who do. Wee Frank bigs up Fresh Tracks and selling opportunities at every opportunity.
With respect, Mister Jones, that is an absurd response. If the Club you belong to - the Ski Club of Great Britain - is converted to a tour operator (Fresh Tracks) which you "do not use" ...
... then you will sacrifice the asset which your membership fees have built.
Assuming that you ski, and plan to continue to ski, or care for future British skiers who might like to enjoy the action ... it is surely far better to convert your mis-managed asset to something that will benefit you far more effectively ... and benefit other/future skiers similarly ... in the full spirit upon which the Ski Club of Great Britain was created in the first place.
[Bear in mind, incidentally, that the trading name 'Fresh Tracks' was originally conceived by the previous CEO of the SCGB, who left the Club (as a senior executive) to found that business and build a customer base ... subsequently selling Fresh Tracks to the SCGB on being hired as CEO]
6 May 2015
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
I would say it is a realistic response rather than an absurd one. If Leaders disappear then I leave The Club.
Mr. Rocks is cool with just Fresh Tracks and will therefore remain with The Club.
What happens to The Club's assets when it is dissolved is a very good point - but life is too short to wait for the answer. Carpetbagging Monitor is an important role - but not for me.
I am sure The Club was much more of a real club when you joined, with active participation and a more clubby feel to it.
I cannot see the present CEO as anything other than a commercial manager. With his predecessor, I had a sense that she had a feel for the club's history as more than just a marketing tool.
After all it is free
After all it is free
In response to Helen O'brien's posting (part-reproduced above), the Ski Club Team has officially commented ...
Quote:
Ski Club Team
Posted: 14 Jan 2015 15:29
The prosecution has alleged that Ken has been in breach of Art.L.212-1 of the French Code du Sport. Under this article it is a legal requirement to have the relevant and appropriate qualification(s) to instruct, lead or guide skiing (groups) if remuneration is received. The distinction between Leading and instruction is not necessarily recognised, so we are also arguing the case on grounds of the volunteer status.
To summarise, Ken’s defence was based on three counts:
1. Procedural
2. Volunteer Status
3. He was not leading, guiding or teaching.
Although Ken was found guilty we do not have the reasoning of the judgement, as only its dispositive part was made available. From the experience of our legal team, the Albertville Court can take as much as two to three months to deliver the entire judgement.
If (point 3 above) Ken Piddlesden was "not leading, guiding or teaching" then perhaps his defence was that he was off-duty ... or perhaps performing with his group in another way that did not comprise 'leading, guiding or teaching'. That defence, however, is not expressly stated here.
Does anyone happen to know? Ideally first-hand?
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@SCGB insider, Whilst the SCGB can make imv a good argument about the volunteer status (but of course that depends on whether the court decides that the travel and accommodation expenses support package constitutes "remuneration"), I don't see how they can argue that a SCGB "Leader" (their new preferred term for what was previously called a Rep) was not leading?!
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Alastair Pink wrote:
Whilst the SCGB can make imv a good argument about the volunteer status ... I don't see how they can argue that a SCGB "Leader" (their new preferred term for what was previously called a Rep) was not leading?!
Ken Piddlesden, the SCGB leader concerned, was apprehended on 8 April 2014. This was a Tuesday. Do we know at what time during that day the Gendarmes stopped him?
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
@SCGB insider, I don't know the time of day, but if your question is whether he was on the slopes leading a group I refer you to a a previous post by yourself on 13th Jan 2015 at 17:19, quote: 8 April 2014: SCGB rep Ken Piddlesden is arrested on a piste in Val d'Isere while leading skiers. The SCGB 'leader' service generally continues at other French resorts but the SCGB reps in Tignes decide to stop leading skiers.
http://www.planetski.eu/news/5983
From the planetski report you linked "A Ski Club of Great Britain leader, Ken Piddlesden, was stopped on April 8th while skiing with Club members on the slopes of Val d'Isere.
We understand another Ski Club leader was questioned on the slopes by the authorities in Val d'Isere back in February.
Sources have told us that in the latest incident the Leader was on piste at the time and he was pressed by the police about his qualifications and the role he was undertaking.
Members in the group were asked if he was being paid.
After questioning he was allowed to continue but has been summoned to appear before the legal authorities in Albertville in September."
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
There's a discussion about the SCGB legal case on the BASI Members' Group Facebook page ...
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
@SCGB insider, We've heard a lot from you about what the SCGB should not be.
I'm sure it's here somewhere, but would you state (once more, possibly - in which case please forgive me) what you and your client Mr DG would expect the terms of reference of The Ski Club of Great Britain to be in the 21st C?
Or even ToR of a Ski Club of Great Britain.
Notwithstanding what it was all those years, ago, which were different times, a very different sport, a society with different mores
What would be your 5 (?7 ?10) point purpose/vision/mission statement/agenda/insert marketing bollox of your choice for the/a SCGB that YOU would like to be a member of, and which would meet your ideals?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Is it just me but I can't summon up the energy to care.
The scgb is going the way of many venerable but essentially decadent institutions, it's being replaced by a young upstart, in this case, snowheads.
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@jbob, Are you suggesting we're the UKIP of snow-business?
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@Arctic Roll from my observations DG looks like a bull in a china shop. He's just doing as much damage as he can, in a random uncontrolled fashion. He can then sit back, smugly, and say "look at the state of this place".
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@jbob,
Quote:
Is it just me but I can't summon up the energy to care
No it isn't just you
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Anyone who complains about this thread will be expelled from it
from my observations DG looks like a bull in a china shop.
Your observations are bullshit. He is far better looking and less violent.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Arctic Roll wrote:
What would be your 5 (?7 ?10) point purpose/vision/mission statement/agenda/insert marketing bollox of your choice for the/a SCGB that YOU would like to be a member of
A series of photos posted by DG in recent seasons for WTF Ski Club may assist ...
@SCGB insider, are you just jealous as you are not important to SH as an organisation or SCGB? So you are trying to create your own little important web space?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Shimmy Alcott wrote:
@SCGB insider, are you just jealous as you are not important to SH as an organisation or SCGB? So you are trying to create your own little important web space?
@Shimmy Alcott, let him be, poor little thing
As I've mentioned before : If you really want see someone of that ilk take a look at CG's alter-ego "twobuddha's" continual ranting on the rec.skiing.alpine etc newsgroups
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Shimmy Alcott, he's an attention-seeking nutjob.
I knew that psychology degree would come in handy at some point.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Lizzard wrote:
nutjob.
psychology degree
Yeah, right! Pulled it out of a Christmas cracker. Got a job* in a lift station.
* may contain nuts
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
SCGB insider wrote:
More media coverage of the ESF -v- SCGB verdict ...
Just to note David that the text in that article has been copied 100% from the snowheads thread but without quoting the link to the Dauphine Libere article it sources. Not very cool.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
SCGB insider wrote:
Shimmy Alcott wrote:
from my observations DG looks like a bull in a china shop.
Your observations are bullshit. He is far better looking and less violent.
Judging by that vid, wrong on both counts
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Shimmy Alcott wrote:
@Arctic Roll from my observations DG looks like a bull in a china shop. He's just doing as much damage as he can, in a random uncontrolled fashion. He can then sit back, smugly, and say "look at the state of this place".
Not from my observations. He asked awkward but important and very relevant questions. The club thought they could ignore him and it escalated from there
In many respects members should be grateful that a member cares enough to thoroughly read the minutes and question them. It is not bad form. It is not somehow letting the side down. In other respects, it alienates people if DG implies all reps, leaders, ambassadors are only in it for the freebies. He fans the flames if he then adds that the club is not fit for purpose and should be closed down.
That said, DG's 10 point plan would be interesting to hear.
More interesting would be an in-depth questioning interview with Wee Frank and his team. One that is not just a fawning bogus session that provides him with an opportunity for glib marketing responses.
This promo job, presumably with an intern, is a classic example. Waffler's Paradise:-
Just to note David that the text in that article has been copied 100% from the snowheads thread but without quoting the link to the Dauphine Libere article it sources. Not very cool.
SINful, one might argue. Though the piece does include lots of original comment in the second half.
I think, overall, it passes on the 'fair use' rule, and does credit the source (as you say, without a linky)
Why is the Dauphiné Libéré piece written so anonymously, by the way? Is it a legal requirement to keep the players' names out of it?
Is there any more first-hand stuff from Albertville on this? Lots of unanswered questions about this affair.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 15-01-15 4:21; edited 2 times in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
George Jones wrote:
In other respects, it alienates people if DG implies all reps, leaders, ambassadors are only in it for the freebies.
DG has not quite gone that far ... but has certainly suggested that 'cost-benefit analysis' is an alien artform at the SCGB (his proposal for cost-benefit analysis to the governing board - SCGB Council - was rejected at the first Council meeting he attended, some 25 years ago). The members' cash is seemingly splashed without concern for the return.
George Jones wrote:
Lovely side swerve, when Frank [McCusker] avoids the difficult one about numbers in the club and the numbers of British skiers.
Have recent SCGB AGMs included the obvious question from the floor ... "How many subscriptions have been paid in the past financial year?"
This figure - 'paying units' - has been omitted from the past three annual reports of the Ski Club of GB.
There is no other bottom line.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Pleas can someone summarise what this thread is all about, going right back to the beginning as I haven't got a clue, and I am not reading through 90 pages.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
You don't have to read through 90 pages. This one is only 26 pages, because it's a bit more specialised (mainly about SCGB Scottish snow reporting). Superbly readable though ... with all the twists and turns you'd expect of a good thriller ...
The Ski Club lawyers indicated that the first court hearing would go against the Club but that higher courts would most likely judge things differently... so as mentioned already, we will probably only see the true justice of all the current cases when escalated to courts that perhaps have a more worldly outlook on their own laws let alone relevant EU ones.
I find it interesting that the UCPA have not been controlled. Although it was a few years ago now, I remember speaking to 2 UCPA guides about their qualifications and they had none - perhaps that's changed???
I also find it interesting that a highly regarded french lawyer, specifically
instructed by the club 2 years ago, concluded that under French law our leaders would be considered very much as volunteers receiving only justifiably due expenses for performing the volunteer service. The law is indeed open to interpretation but, in my personal opinion, only a foolish or biased individual would consider that the benefits they receive are not wholly, necessarily and, therefore, 'duly justified' expenses in order to carry out the unpaid service of leading other members around the mountain.
An ex-HR Director friend of mine recently debated the topic with me and suggested that liability insurance and legal help are examples of the balance shifting towards worker rather than volunteer but then I know of charities who indemnify volunteers that receive zero expenses/benefits - does that mean they are no longer a volunteer (being very generalistic here). Should the Ski Club NOT do the responsible thing and insure/indemnify it’s leading activities? Of course they shouldn’t… and doing the responsible thing should not be considered as a tactical way of deciding that they fall foul of the French laws either.
If it comes down to technical interpretation of that nature to declare whether a 50 year old institution is legal in France then that will be a very sad day but not one that couldn’t be resolved by playing the French at their own game by tweaking the nature and manner of leader recompense for expenses.
I for one disagree whole-heartedly with anyone claiming the Club’s leading service is outdated, outmoded or inappropriate in any way.
The history portrayals I have read show that actually the Ski Club of Great Britain is largely responsible for the rise of recreational skiing as we now know it. It handed off instruction and race initiatives when it saw that those needed separate pathways for success.
At its heart the Ski Club Leading service is about creating communities of like-minded snowsports enthusiasts and providing them with a method of enjoying their trip to the maximum. Claims that they are not safe on OR off piste are woefully misplaced… I would strongly suspect that the statistics of injury/death in comparison with other organisations would show the Club in a very safe light.
Prior to my recent trip to Tignes I seriously considered a proactively antagonistic campaign of overtly leading other ski club members around the Espace Killy. I am a member only, not leader, and would have been doing so on a purely volunteer, self-funded basis to take a stand, however insignificant. I was requested not to do this in case it prejudiced the recent hearing but I wish I had gone ahead now. This protectionist French crap needs to be ended and although I believe that will happen at some point during the court escalations, I suspect that too much unjust damage may have already been caused to the various parties by that point. The French system is deliberately and directly anti-competitive. It invents, mis-interprets and manipulates laws in order to preserve what amounts to a cartel infrastructure and it regularly ignores examples of French organisations performing the same supposed ‘illegal’ activities. At the very heart of the EU is a spirit and regulations that outlaw such protectionist anti-competition. If France enjoy the many benefits of the EU then they must be swiftly held to account for ignoring the aspects that they don't like very much... they can't have it both ways.
I look forward to the day when the various puppet-masters behind the scenes in France receive the legal salvo they deserve and have to start playing fair in this industry, amongst others.
Je suis Ski Club GB et je suis Ken P.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 15-01-15 15:48; edited 1 time in total
And a person clearly not in the SCGB for the freebies.....
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
> The Ski Club lawyers indicated that the first court hearing would go against the Club but that higher courts would most likely judge things differently
I think that is just bluster to be honest. Appeals are not well thought of in the French justice system (and probably elsewhere). You have the automatic entitlement to one appeal in the French system but a primary target of the lower courts is to keep the number of appeals as low as possible due to the huge workload in the system. They try to render judgements that conform very closely to existing case law so that the chance of a successful appeal is limited. Now it maybe that this case is ground breaking but in one of the other threads I pointed out a number of bits of case law that covered the ski club situation. Emmaus and the Red Cross were a couple of examples. In those cases volunteers were deemed to be employees as they were under the control of the organisation.
I've no idea if an appeal will succeed but the best chance of success was in the lower court.
You will know more about this than me no doubt, but I recall that what seems like years ago now, Top Ski the first independent ski school in Val d'Isere had to fight all through the various levels of the French legal system, to gain the right to operate. If that is correct then they were obviously unsuccessful initially.
They were of course, vehemently opposed by the ESF.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
richjp wrote:
I am not sure that is totally correct.
Well obviously people do win on appeal but the lower courts don't try to be obtuse with their judgements which is why I found the ski club's lawyer's statement surprising.
After all it is free
After all it is free
George Jones wrote:
A very heartfelt response to the situation
A kindly observation, but perhaps you could teach Mr Glynne one or two things about composure and retaining it. This type of reactive inflammatory language ...
Quote:
This protectionist French crap needs to be ended
... serves no purpose, since the SCGB had anticipated the result anyway and is appealing the matter to a higher court. Why inflame social media, especially on a channel (BASI Members' Group) where there are two diametrically-opposed factions - pro-France/ESF and anti-France/ESF. No point in 'playing to the gallery' when the gallery is divided down the middle (by a convenient stairway to access seats) and is occupied by some instructors who've enjoyed two decades of affluent entente cordiale with the French.
Quote:
Je suis Ski Club GB et je suis Ken P.
A sign-off line that ... err ... perhaps doesn't quite work, in comparison to a publication that's currently selling 5 million copies. [Latest Ski Club GB magazine newsstand sales?]
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
Quote:
He asked awkward but important and very relevant questions
agree
Quote:
The club thought they could ignore him and it escalated from there
agree
and oh how its escalated!
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
@SCGB insider, It is not for me to provide lessons in composure. Anyway, I think the SCGB already had a word.
I notice you did not comment on my second sentence about freebies......
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
