New Ski Club of Great Britain chat forum

A snowHead

@andy, I agree with this. I first became invloved with SCGB three decades ago when I was very young. Makes me feel really old now. It was a club and you felt like it was a club. Now it is as you said

'metamorphosed into a specialist ski holiday operator, with some value added services that many find useful, and a load of discounts that are of use to others'.

I cannot put that any better. If the SCGB changed what they still claim about 'representing all British skiers' then I would be happy. The trouble is I do not think they will do this.

For those out there searching the internet. For snowboarders you now have Snowboard Club UK (SCUK) which is very good for snowboard info and as a club, very similar to snowheads, but for young (and not so young) snowboarders.

BUT for all the best gossip and chat about snowports in the UK. Right here on snowheads is the best place to be! Very Happy

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Not sure if they ever explicitly claimed they represent all skiers, rather than just members, but the fact that to me as a complete n00b skier in 1997, and relative rookie up until "you know when", it at least "appeared" as the club to represent all.

Sure there were a few other clubs (vaguely recall a Midland Ski Club? and a snowboard club, back then), but as a n00b I saw it as the proper one that mattered the most. More than just a club.

The only 2 online social resources were SCGB forum and uk.rec.skiing. Just at the point where I had the annual mag sub (probably would have had annual membership if I hadn't become an expat), and just getting to know some of the names, and could see networks of like minded skiers forming, and hoping to invite myself into a ski trip, "you know what" happened. So as per probably about page 1 of this thread... I thank SCGB for allowing the formation of a genuine online ski club, and I now have far too many people I can ski with, and a facebook (which funnily enough started exactly the same time) that's full roughly 50% with sH Smile

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@achilles, not sure 100% about them still saying 'representing all skiers' any more. It is what DG said and I do remember reading it in the past. But not looked recently. As @andy, says, it use to give that impression. I think even if it does not say that anymore it still likes to give the same impression of representing us all. Not something many people would agree with these days I think.

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@snowcrazy, given that you don't seem to like the SCGB, you spend a lot of time talking about it.

it's a club. people are free to join, pay, leave. they either choose to accept the conditions of membership, or not. Ditto to snowheads. If you want to run an alternative, start one up. or write a blog. but please, take the sniping elsewhere, particularly if you making opinion on things that you haven't 'looked recently' at.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Anyone else run out of popcorn?

After all it is free

@hamilton, the point is it is not just a 'Club'. As Andy put it very nicely. It is a business with stuff added on. And somebody else pointed out that it is using it's 'Club' title in a way that seems to be used to get around certain issues. ie, why the leading has now been challenged in France.

It is now for the French courts to decide, at least in France if it is a business or a club.

As has been pointed out already, people DO NOT always choose to join. They must join if they want to go on a Tour Company Holiday. Freshtracks is a tour company IMO.

The SCGB should not have it both ways. Play fair with all the other tour operators and be a business and follow the same rules. The Tour companies have to fight in court to be allowed to have 'ski hosts'. The SCGB get's round this by calling them volunteer leaders when in fact they do a very similar job. The SCGB now say because of what has just happened that everyone should boycott the ESF. Why did they pull out of supporting the Tour Companies when they needed the support of the SCGB? I would suggest because it suited SCGB to do so. Now they are being targeted in France they want others to support them. Very two faced!

There is one solution. Make the two Ltd Companies separate. Run the club as a Club. No need for so many paid staff. Much cheaper running costs etc. Be seen to do as they say themselves re. ski safety rather than advise others, but not follow through themselves.

Run Freshtracks on it's own with separate staff and submit accounts etc for each enterprise. Not universal accounts. Then it would be a club again.

Also, please do expand on what you mean by ''looked recently' at' as I believe very little that I have written is out of date. Many people have knocked what DG posts, but most of it is factually correct. It is up to each individual how we interpret these facts. Debate is all about different opinions.

For me, if I felt the club really was a club again I would have a different view. It was at one time very good! It would be nice to see it becoming good again. If by these postings people debate these issues it must in the long run be good for the 'Club' if it ever becomes one again IMO.

@ansta1, now time for my popcorn, and it is still not snowing outside! Sad

(

FFS ... The king is dead ... Long live the king !!

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Isn't SCGB one of those things that will gradually die out? I can't imagine they are that popular in people under 30. Take away the tour leaders and what does it have to offer that is not easily available with a google search?

I considered a Freshtracks holiday once but it was expensive. They pick expensive French and Swiss resorts and force you to pay membership of the club on top, just to book a holiday, as if you are getting a great deal!

snow reports

Here we go again ! .... Ansta I'm just popping out for some popcorn ... Do you want some ??

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@snowcrazy,

You have distilled the issues with SCGB perfectly. My membership lapsed well over 10 years ago and don't envisage that changing tbh so don't have any personal interest. I do think however that although DG does seem to have a personal vendetta most of the stuff he raises has merit

A snowHead

@dsoutar, for all the personal grudge that might exist, any organisation should be able to stand up to internal and external scrutiny. Some of the inconsistencies in accounting, policies, and public statements that he has flagged up are perfectly legitimate issues, and members of the club should be concerned that those in charge seem to have nothing other than "discredit DG" as a policy for dealing with it. That doesn't stack up for anyone that looks at the things he is talking about, because they tend to (as you have noticed) at least be legitimate, even if not necessarily a priority for the club.

A snowHead

@dsoutar, @Mistress Panda, +1

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I have a feeling that if this keeps up, people will be standing on tables shouting "OH GOLDSMITH, MY GOLDSMITH!" soon...

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@Mistress Panda, @dsoutar, @Pedantica, I think if we can keep to the details and facts of this discussion then it is quite interesting. The problem is that as soon as anyone makes a good point and wants to discuss it further. Those without any substance to argue that you are wrong just try to make it personal and divert peoples attention away from the real issues. That is exactly what certain people are trying to make happen over on the other thread regarding SCGB Leaders and Ambassadors.

I wonder will any of the Leaders or Ambassadors who are reading these posts give their opinions to the examples I have given of possible situations anyone could be faced with on the mountain. I look forward to reading their responses.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

am quite surprised this thread is holding its own without DG's constant self promotion. What cruel torture for the lurking DG.

After all it is free

It does seem that as SCGB becomes less relevant and fails to adjust for the internet age, they just deny anything is wrong and just blame everything on this Goldsmith guy. It doesn't matter if he is reasonable or unreasonable; what matters is that the more this argument drags on, the more it embarrasses SCGB and its bunch of sarcastic cheerleaders.

@Shimmy Alcott, we all know that DGs got more socks than Marks and Spencer. I always assumed that PJSki was actually Dave with a wig on.

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@Richard_Sideways, NO, DG told us that PJSki was Gerry Aitken, a current SCGB council member. Amazing when you think of the things he use to write. Twisted Evil

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@feef, you are obviously a big supporter of the SCGB as you try and discredit everything I say, but when asked to use your skiing experience to explain over on the other thread what you would do in the scenarios I have outlined I notice you have not responded.

The SCGB is nothing like the Camping and Caravan Climb. The CCC is an association made up of many different sections across the whole country. My family has belonged to it for years. They run camp sites and other commercial enterprises from the headquarters, but importantly each 'District Club. across the whole country has members and runs there own members activities. The CCC also have thriving specialist areas. Really I guess the overall body of the CCC should be called technically an association. But historically they have always been know as CCC or versions of that.

Maybe this is what the SCGB should become. The British Amateur Skiing Association. Then they could be really become the voice of amateur British skiers in the same way that the Rambler's Association , now simply know as the 'Rambles' has become. The Rambler's have both club and individual members and is a great pressure group for keeping the footpaths open across the UK.

The SCGB is nothing like either of these. It does not run distinct or local formal clubs and in the UK only has the Headquarters in London which they call a clubhouse, but that is a joke. It is an office building mainly for the holiday company/business side of the SCGB with a meeting room and bar. Real club members cannot just turn up for a drink, it is only open for formal events.

The SCGB also runs a chalet in Flaine as a business. Not for members just to turn up at in a ski resort. How can this be anything other than a 'tour company business with other stuff added on' as was pointed out earlier? Very Happy

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@snowcrazy, but have Gerry and Dave ever been seen in the room together? How else could GA consolidate an indifferent membership but by creating an implacable Nemesis? Daves stated goal is to have the SCGB wound up, and every action coming out of the leadership seems to further that ambition...

The only question is, who OR WHAT is at the centre of this Russian Doll? Dave? Gerry? Admin? Me? Maybe... YOU!
We are through the looking glass people. Trust no-one.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

@feef, I just checked the other thread. Ok, I stand corrected, I just found your later post. I also believe in admitting if I made a mistake. My apology for saying you did not reply to the scenarios. From your reply I presume you are a Leader for SCGB.

With regards to an Ambassador giving someone a transceiver at the bottom of the piste for the day. I do not think that is the same as paying to rent one in advance of your days skiing from a shop or somewhere like the Alpine Club. Rental agreements are covered by rental conditions and legal stuff to ensure the rental agent is not liable if the product is misused. This would cover anything from speeding in a rental car to breaking your rental skis etc. So I would presume there are similar conditions which would cover transceivers.

From what you have said in your reply. 'personally... I'd make it known transceivers were available for those that wanted them. I'd make sure they knew that they should also have shovels and probes and know how to use them.'

I also agree with you completely and that is exactly what I would do as well. However, if you do ask these questions and they say no they do not have the other equipment or no they do not know how to use a transceiver properly. What would you then do? Give it to them anyway? Teach them how to use it first before giving it to them? or Say sorry you cannot have one?

Taking a sensible approach as you have stated is really good to hear, but how would you respond to any of the possible answers I have given above or anything else you think they might reply for that matter.

Also if you are Leading a SCGB group off piste your standard of care for them would of course be the same as for a group of your friends I am sure.

You stated: 'I would endeavour to make sure there were sufficient shovels and probes between us, but I still wouldn't require that every single person had one. In the event of a multiple burial, some can be digging while some can be searching with transceivers.'

Again I agree with this as we both know in reality it takes many people doing different tasks at the same time to find and rescue someone in an avalanche.

Hence a problem. When you meet up for a SCGB off piste day you are leading. What would you do if ONLY one person had all the kit, plus your back markers bag and your own equipment. Three sets of shovel and probes are really not enough with a group of nine people. (Eight people are allowed in a SCGB off piste group plus the Leader I believe.) What happens if one of the three people with the gear are buried, then you are down to only two shovel and probes. Not enough for a quick rescue in my experience and you can never know if this might not happen.

Would you still go into off piste areas or change your plans? An interesting dilemma and one that is still often faced when meeting groups you might not have met with in advance.

Personally, I always tell people in advance that they must have all the correct gear (either rented or their own) before coming off piste with us, but I am lucky as we always plan what we are doing in advance. I am very interested to hear you views of this point.

A snowHead

Now that DG is not posting here. Let us move the other debate re. leaders over here so that we can edit what we post. It makes it much easier.

Carried over from other thread:

As it is always good to have both sides to a debate published. Here is the link for those that wish to read what was stated by the SCGB following the court hearing on Monday.

http://www.planetski.eu/news/6530

The main argument seems to revolve around remuneration. "Article L.212-1 of the French Code du Sport means people can not lead people round the mountains for remuneration unless they are suitably qualified ski instructors."

'The SCGB agrue, "The Club says this is within the terms of French law and is covered by a note to Article L.212-1: "a remuneration is any compensation in money or in kind given or received and which is strictly speaking superior to the reimbursement of the duly justified costs".

The Club argued that the remuneration given is 'justified costs'.

The prosecution argued in court that the service breaks the law and should be ended.'

I guess it will now be for the Judges to make their decision.

Although some people might be surprised to read this, I actually hope the SCGB do win on this point of law. It will set a good president for the future for everyone else. If they do win and ONLY lead groups around the pistes, then that would be a good result.

However there was also an interesting comment by the SCGB advocat: "Monsieur Carnelutti dismissed all calls that they (SCGB Leader's) acted unsafely, "The Ski Club does not compromise on safety" he told the court."

And the Chief Executive also stated, "The Leaders, formerly known as Reps, take members round the mountains skiing with them both on and off piste."

I wonder, is the advocate representing the SCGB aware that the SCGB does not follow 'local piste authority advice' and ensure that all it's members carry the required off piste safety equipment or (I will even compromise my own position for the sake of argument) enough group members carry all safety equipment to ensure in case of an avalanche resuce might be possible. I know of many occasions when SCGB groups had insufficient equipment. Remember an avalabche can take place quite near to a piste. But still to far away for quick assistance by the pisteurs.

Any skier or snowboarder only needs to look on the many signs around most resorts to see it stating that this equipment is required. In some parts of Italy it has now been made a local bylaw that it is carried.

I have noticed that nobody has disagreed with me that this equipment is needed when skiing off piste. If the SCGB made it obiglatory for all it's members if they wished to be loaned a transciever to have this equipment, this would go a long way to make their case stronger. Until they do this, they will always look rather unprofessional at the very least.

They also still have the problem re. not teaching. I strongly argue that it is also unsafe to take people 'off piste' for the first time away from controlled areas if you are not prepared to teach them how to stay safe.

If the SCGB made it policy that leaders only skied 'on piste', they would not appear to be taking away work from the ski schools and NOT 'compromising safety'. Very Happy

A snowHead

Copied from other thread to help those wanting to keep up with the latest debate.

@chocksaway, First, the SCGB Leader's ARE NOT qualified in any way. The training course run in Tignes at the moment only gives an overall feeling for leading. It does not teach all the skills needed to 'lead groups' or 'rescue people' at a sufficient level to be recognised as an official course by any governing body of skiing. I do not know who told you this course gives a qualification. It does not. But it is a good refresher for those that already know what they are doing. (There are some SCGB leaders that also might be BASI Instructors, but they are not allowed to work in France.)

I accept your point about CDA and there role in Tignes re. Val d'Isere. I also am not sure as I stated whether the lift passes are free still in Tignes.

As to the difference between a Ski Instructor and a SCGB leader. I think there is a very big difference and they cannot be compared in terms of entitlement to remuneration so we will have to agree to differ on this point. No point in going round in circles. It cannot be protectionism as the BASI, Swiss, Italian etc. Instructors also get the same discount.

Are you aware that the SCGB leaders also have contracts, payments into banks back in the UK and stated monetary expenses they will receive. Not quite as clear cut as you might think

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Last of the new posts from the other thread.

@jbob, I agree with you. This did need sorting out and had this problem been handled better by SCGB it need never have ended in a court case. The writing had been on the wall for some time, with warnings being given and ignored by SCGB. A bit of a case of, 'head in the sand'.

IMO, if the SCGB had agreed be seen to be limiting their activities and pushing more work towards the ski schools rather than being seen to be acting as professionals on the mountain which they are not, even if that was not their intention, then this problem might have been resolved. I guess now we shall all have to wait and hear what the court decides.

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Haven't been over here on sH for ages. Thought I would pop in to see what was happening.

I was a member, then stopped for a while, then rejoined to get a whacking discount on a family holiday. Never been a rep, and wouldn't want to be. Done about 10 freshtracks hols and 7 bashes I think.

Back in the day I used to challenge DG on his... idiosyncratic... interpretation of history and statistics which was skewed to one particular world view, and was never going to change, so really not a discussion, and not really worth it, except that he always took silence as agreement.

And I think @snowcrazy, that like DG, you have a bit of a history of mutual disagreement with the SCGB, and this ended in you ceasing repping? I may be making a big mistake - and if so apologise unreservedly - and didn't you also get the SCGB forum to remove some posts which referred to an avalanche you had been involved in, when actually we could have learnt from your experience, as we have from others who have posted their stories here over the years? Perhaps you have mentioned this above? CBA to look...Again - please say if I am wrong. I am not going to be hanging around here to argue. Been there, done that, nothing changed. The field is yours.

Whilst the SCGB is a club, like all clubs the active core is quite small. I used to be a member of the CTC. ABout 20000 members of whom 2000 went on club rides. Now a member of a MTB club with 250 members or who we see about 50 regularly. And the SCGB has x members/paying units, but only y who ski with a rep/do freshtracks. And snowHeads has... etc etc etc...

So for most members it is a consumer choice, and they will be relatively dormant. And they vote for the status quo with their wallets.

So - when it comes to discussions like this, I tend to distrust the motivations of the chief posters. Be they the idiot who started it, or people with perceived grudges they wish to right, or people like me who argue too much. I think they shed more heat than light.

In the meantime people could get real and stop thinking the club is any different from any large national club, or needs to mean anything or be representative. The rep vs resort thing in France has been coming for a long time. And the noble tradition of protectionism and action in France is strong... And if it were to lead people away from the samey over-busy French resorts to other places, that's good. But it won't.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

@stoat of the dead, welcome back to the madhouse Very Happy

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@limegreen1, ^This

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Sorry ..over zealous with the edit button ...
It all ways strikes me as strange that for someone/ people who disagrees with club policy, the way the club is run, that sees the services on offer as unsafe and illegal, sees the representatives as not up to the task and moreover !, one who has no thought of taking up or renewing a membership to that club .... Devote so much time to that club, when surely they should be enjoying the snow or apres !! snowHead

After all it is free

@limegreen1, I agree, it is important to enjoy the snow. I had another good day today, even if the conditions could be better. Read my post over on the Les Arcs thread.

However it does not mean that we should not discuss something which is an important safety issue for many skiers, not just the SCGB. It is unfortunate for the SCGB that they are the ones that so openly break safety rules when skiing off piste. I would post about this issue if it was another organisation. But it is the SCGB and they do not seem to understand what they are doing is wrong. Ask any pisteur. He would always tell you to have all the gear, know how to use it and understand snow conditions before going off piste. This is what the SCGB should be demonstrating, not making up there own rules to suit themselves.

If this is not pointed out to folks, then people might think it is an OK thing to be doing. I had someone say to me once, 'oh, it was ok to ski off piste with just a transceiver when I went with the SCGB, it must be safe. Now you want me to rent the full gear to come with you. WHY?'

Then I had to explain the difference and then they said, 'so what they did with us was not safe!' So then I had to explain what the pisteurs always recommend. They then went and rented ALL the safety gear.

This is why I will continue with this discussion. I note that NOBODY has disagreed with my basic safety points. yes, we all do things in a slightly different way, but the basics for most of us are all the same. Carry all the right gear, know how to use it, understand the snow and be ready to adapt when conditions change. Please. if anyone disagrees with me explain why.

@stoat of the dead, As always, someone trying to make it personal again and divert attention from the issues. But in fact by mentioning this, you have demonstrated to those that do not know me that I have a great deal of experience. It is common knowledge that I have been skiing and leading for years. That is why I have the experience to make the comments that I do, based on an in depth knowledge of 'off piste' skiing (I average 100 days a season off piste) and I have been doing this for nearly 20 years. I always try very hard to only comment on stuff that I personally know to be correct.

I shall continue this discussion until the SCGB change their policy and insist that members and guest are properly trained and carry the correct equipment when skiing off piste, not just hand out transcievers at the bottom of the piste to anyone that asks for one.

The example I gave above shows how what the SCGB do can effect what others are doing. Why should I be faced with explaining to someone that they need the correct gear and know how to use it when coming with me. If the SCGB had done their job properly when they took this family out, those later coming with me would not need to ask these questions. Please tell me, do you think it is ok to break the basic safety rules that the 'local experts' say are necessary?

@snowcrazy,I'd agree much of what you say. I don't have 10% of your experience or expertise, and never will. And if someone doesn't have the gear and doesn't know how to use it, then I am not going skiing off-piste with them. And certainly all the freshtracks people in OP terrain are fully kitted up.

But that doesn't alter my opinion that if someone has had a particularly personal falling-out with any organisation, then one should bear that in mind and be aware of it in how one reads the subtext of what they say against that organisation, and be careful about assessing their motivation. I am getting older and probably am confused and maybe I was thinking of someone else? But only you can tell me if I was wrong?

Anyway - let's all have a good safe season. Smile

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I sometimes wonder if all this 'kit' stuff is a bit OTT, how many people are actually saved by transceivers, probes and shovels?

I'd be curious to know if anyone here has been dug out of a life threatening situation or helped in one....... where it was neceessary.

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