 Poster: A snowHead
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Guys, could you all stop flirting please, and get a room?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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boarder in a fir tree
two turtle necks
three french maids
four
five fields of powder
six geezers lying
seven skiers swishing
eight maids a mogulling
nine ladies langlaufing
ten lords a telemarking
eleven half-pipers pfatting
twelve
I know, a bit lame...
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Fri 20-05-05 15:55; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ray Zorro, I really must get my eyes tested, I just read " 3 mates spayed" 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Adrian wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Regarding the ski mountaineering grading scheme I mentioned. |
I had a quick skim back through this discussion and could not find your words. Could you provide any more details of this grading scheme please? |
Sorry Adrian, busy nappy changing and bottle washing today. Your last para is spot on, it all depends on the snow... or ice but that is why I included some section on routefinding in my scale as part of a successful trip is judging the conditions.
To come back to the scale I mentioned earlier:
Each section comprises three subgradings .1 inferior, .2 average, .3 superior and in the 5th grading it can keep going
1.x Beginners off-piste descents. Slopes < 30degrees. The slope is not too narrow, even in trees. For ski touring, less than 800m climbing. The exposure (what happens if you make a mistake - cliffs, long exposed slopes, risk of avalanche) is not serious.
2.x Not too many technical difficulties, no steep slopes (<= 35 degrees). Routes with over 800m climbing. A fall may cause injuries, possibly serious.
3.x Ski mountaineering. Technical sections. Long slopes of 35 degrees. Short passages of 40-45 degrees. Dense woodland and steep slopes in forests.
4.x Couloir skiing and steep exposed slopes. Very long 40 degree slopes with passages to 50 degrees. Very dense forest and mid-mountain terrain with technical sections and exposure. This is the start of extreme skiing.
5.x Very steep slopes, 45-50 degrees and very long, otherwise greater than 50 degrees.
One should consider that on a 35 degree slope it is impossible to stop a slide on ice, on a 45 degree slope it is difficult to stop a slide on corn snow and after 50 degrees a slide that is not stopped immediately is impossible to stop even on deep snow.
Altitude also is a factor and if the route traverses glaciated terrain.
Remember that on a shallow slope breakable crust makes the slope more difficult and that on a steep slope deep snow reduces the difficulty but hard snow increases the difficulty. Narrow couloirs may have a central gouloutte (ice fall) that forces the skier onto the banks making the slope much steeper.
In general anyone who is skiing red pistes in resort can tackle routes off-piste rated 1.x on spring snow, especially if accompanied by a guide, instructor or experienced friend. If you are skiing black pistes in resort routes of 2.x should present no difficulty on spring snow, the maximum steepness is about the same and the route may actually be easier than an overskied black run. The principal difficulties are the many extra variables when skiing off-piste which can affect the decision making process, whether you have climbed to reach the run (tiredness), and the variable snow conditions that are found off-piste - in the spring the route may be wind crust at altitude turning to ice, then spring snow followed by slush.
Some Routes
I hope I have these gradings correct. I have tried to look for some off-piste routes that everyone knows about.
Glacier de Gébroulaz at Val Thorens is 2.2 IMHO (some people say 2.1) but there is a 35 degree slope to access the glacier.
Aiguille du Tour normal route: 3.3
Mont Blanc - Gouter North Face: 4.2
Mont Blanc - Courtes N/E Face 5.2
Brèche Nonne-Evêque par le couloir Sud Ouest 5.2
In theory this information should tell people what sort of routes they are capable of tackling. Obviously some people will wish to improve and ski harder routes - look at Phil Ingle who has gone from skiing 4.x routes to 5.x routes over the last few years. At the same time people shouldn't feel they need to ski at a higher and higher level. If enjoyment is to be had cruising blues on piste then so be it. As Dot would say: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. - MATTHEW 7:1-5.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, you'll notice we actually need 6x13 = 78 lines as each achievement is allowed to redefine the ones below it, yet they must be roughly congruent.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Sorry, quite right. Far too easy for this thread otherwise. 
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| davidof wrote: |
| Adrian wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
| Regarding the ski mountaineering grading scheme I mentioned. |
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--- snipped lots of details |
Ah, now I understand. I misunderstood your words above. I had in mind a link to some other web site. Thank you, davidof for repeating the explanation.
I am not familiar with the routes you named. Most of my off-piste skiing has been in Tignes and Val d'Isere. Do you know of any web sites where lots of routes are graded, perhaps including some that I know.
My skiing is mostly at grades 1 and 2 area in your scale, but hints of grades 3 or 4. I am thinking of the exposure accessing some of the areas, long traverses on 30 or 40 degree slopes (maybe even steeper) with nasty rocks below and rocks on the traverse. Also of big faces with very hard packed snow that just rolls away steeper and steeper until the snow cannnot stick leaving more nasty rocks.
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davidof, thanks for that - really interesting. By Aiguille du Tour you mean the one near Argentiere? And the Col du Passon would be something like 2.3/3.1?
rob@rar.org.uk, I'm sorry if I drew you into this unnecessarily, but I was under the impression that you were one of those wanting to discount any scales that had an endpoint that didn't cover the "pinnacle of their chosen sport/recreation". If this was misrepresenting you then I apologise. Re-reading back through this to your post on p6 to slikedges, I would agree with every word you said, with the exception that I would be happy with a number of scales, each one taking over as the previous one ran out. But, as I said, I was trying to move on beyond that disagreement. Oh well, c'est la vie.
ise, since you ask so nicely, as of that post a smidgeon over 10% (now just over 11%). (FYI the remaining 90% fall within about 80 threads, covering a range of subjects...including touring, techniques, a bit of kit, and actually a couple on your new home valley). Of my now 14 posts in this thread, 12 have tried to address the point under discussion, and the remaining 2 were a bit of good-natured banter with yourself and PG. Of your 13, however, only about 4 made coherent points relevant to the current discussion, such as an entirely fair and reasoned explanation of your objection to the whole excercise (your "lead balloon" post on p6 - nothing to take objection to, it's your viewpoint, trenchantly but coherently put), and ironically your BASI post on p5 was one of the closest to a post of the type I was looking for - at which point I thought we could have actually started to have a reasonable discussion. Unfortunately you've seen fit in the last couple of pages to revert to type.....so goodbye, and have a nice day .
(BTW - if you didn't like the "argumentative pedant" tag, it wasn't my invention but PG's)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just to add another point: the S&R scale seems to emphasise the time spent skiing for each abililty level. Surely this is not a very sensible method of categorising ability. Learning curves will differ greatly depending upon learning ability, balance, instructor, snow quality. In addition, surely you'd learn and absorb more in 3 consecutive weeks than 3 weeks spread over 3 years...
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Sharkymark, an argument I would to some extent agree with. The SCGB scheme also includes an element of this. But in her contribution to this discussion easiski (the one person in this thread who's job it is to make such assessments) said "Number of weeks skied + where + pistes you are happy on is the only way to judge it." I guess it's just one objective measure (one of the few) for getting into the right ballpark for a more refined judgement.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| davidof wrote: |
| Adrian wrote: |
| davidof wrote: |
Regarding the ski mountaineering grading scheme I mentioned. |
I had a quick skim back through this discussion and could not find your words. Could you provide any more details of this grading scheme please? |
Sorry Adrian, busy nappy changing and bottle washing today. Your last para is spot on, it all depends on the snow... or ice but that is why I included some section on routefinding in my scale as part of a successful trip is judging the conditions.
To come back to the scale I mentioned earlier:
Each section comprises three subgradings .1 inferior, .2 average, .3 superior and in the 5th grading it can keep going
1.x Beginners off-piste descents. Slopes < 30degrees. The slope is not too narrow, even in trees. For ski touring, less than 800m climbing. The exposure (what happens if you make a mistake - cliffs, long exposed slopes, risk of avalanche) is not serious.
2.x Not too many technical difficulties, no steep slopes (<= 35 degrees). Routes with over 800m climbing. A fall may cause injuries, possibly serious.
3.x Ski mountaineering. Technical sections. Long slopes of 35 degrees. Short passages of 40-45 degrees. Dense woodland and steep slopes in forests.
4.x Couloir skiing and steep exposed slopes. Very long 40 degree slopes with passages to 50 degrees. Very dense forest and mid-mountain terrain with technical sections and exposure. This is the start of extreme skiing.
5.x Very steep slopes, 45-50 degrees and very long, otherwise greater than 50 degrees.
One should consider that on a 35 degree slope it is impossible to stop a slide on ice, on a 45 degree slope it is difficult to stop a slide on corn snow and after 50 degrees a slide that is not stopped immediately is impossible to stop even on deep snow.
Altitude also is a factor and if the route traverses glaciated terrain.
Remember that on a shallow slope breakable crust makes the slope more difficult and that on a steep slope deep snow reduces the difficulty but hard snow increases the difficulty. Narrow couloirs may have a central gouloutte (ice fall) that forces the skier onto the banks making the slope much steeper.
In general anyone who is skiing red pistes in resort can tackle routes off-piste rated 1.x on spring snow, especially if accompanied by a guide, instructor or experienced friend. If you are skiing black pistes in resort routes of 2.x should present no difficulty on spring snow, the maximum steepness is about the same and the route may actually be easier than an overskied black run. The principal difficulties are the many extra variables when skiing off-piste which can affect the decision making process, whether you have climbed to reach the run (tiredness), and the variable snow conditions that are found off-piste - in the spring the route may be wind crust at altitude turning to ice, then spring snow followed by slush.
Some Routes
I hope I have these gradings correct. I have tried to look for some off-piste routes that everyone knows about.
Glacier de Gébroulaz at Val Thorens is 2.2 IMHO (some people say 2.1) but there is a 35 degree slope to access the glacier.
Aiguille du Tour normal route: 3.3
Mont Blanc - Gouter North Face: 4.2
Mont Blanc - Courtes N/E Face 5.2
Brèche Nonne-Evêque par le couloir Sud Ouest 5.2
In theory this information should tell people what sort of routes they are capable of tackling. Obviously some people will wish to improve and ski harder routes - look at Phil Ingle who has gone from skiing 4.x routes to 5.x routes over the last few years. At the same time people shouldn't feel they need to ski at a higher and higher level. If enjoyment is to be had cruising blues on piste then so be it. As Dot would say: "Judge not, that ye be not judged. - MATTHEW 7:1-5. |
Just as an additive to this - steepness isn't everything - to me consequences are far more important. For example Skiing couloir extreme on blackcomb, 45 or so degrees yet the consequences of a fall are relatively minor - you will slide a long way but probably be kind of ok after any fall.
Similar slopes with big pointy rocks below a potential fall I find far more intimidating - similar slopes with a posiible cliff fall have an even higher risk rating and I'll be $hitting it! - Pitch isn't everything.
To me the slope could be the same but my perceived risk is the thing that determines how confident I am skiing it. A cornice drop is often a 90 degree drop but you don't consider the gradient rather the landing and risk afterwards
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just found the scale I referred to earlier, which sounds as if it's very similar to the French Alpine Club system davidof mentioned. It's the Blachere scale, here as listed in "Mont-Blanc Ski Tours" by Delaperriere and Gentilini (they say they have made "small modifications"). First category maybe shows it's been around more than a couple of years.
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IMS - intermediate skier - Someone who has mastered stem christies, kick turns and can sideslip on slopes of up to 25 or 30 degrees
GS - good skier - knows how to deal with all types of snow on slopes which can be steeper than 30 to 35 degrees and where certain passages can be narrow and delicate
VGS - very good skier - Capable of technical jump turns on slopes of up to 40 degrees and having the qualities of self control necessary to turn in a narrow couloir where a fall would be serious
EGS - extremely good skier - All the previous qualifications, plus an excellent technique and solid mental control on slopes of 45 degrees as over, where the commitment is total. This is extreme ski territory.
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This would seem to approximate to the skill levels required for slopes graded 1.2, 3(.1?), 3(.3?) and 4.2. Right ballpark?
stuarth, fully agree - from what little experience I have of it exposure makes a huge difference to the seriousness of the slope - it may not affect the probability of encountering a problem (depending on the mental fibre of the skier), but makes a huge difference to the consequences.
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You know it makes sense.
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Joined this late and the 9 or so pages are a bit of a trawl. Just like to say that the definitions on this page make good reading to me and I can find a place for this under the thread header quite easily.
I haven't come across davidof's references being described by guides for example but at least I can relate to the descriptions and the commitment required. In fact I wonder if something is amiss having not been asked about it?
Obviously, I am not a tourer but I do like testing/interesting routes.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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And, of course a day trip or longer may be a huge effort just to get to the one place that is technically demanding.
But you should know of the commitment required. We had this discussion with carving etc. In places like these you had better have a turn that works or don't go there
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Poster: A snowHead
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| Sharkymark, an argument I would to some extent agree with. The SCGB scheme also includes an element of this. But in her contribution to this discussion easiski (the one person in this thread who's job it is to make such assessments) said "Number of weeks skied + where + pistes you are happy on is the only way to judge it." I guess it's just one objective measure (one of the few) for getting into the right ballpark for a more refined judgement. |
That's the classic way of assessing someone, but the one inaccuracy that comes into the mix is of course that the actual difficulty of similarly-graded runs can vary massively from resort to resort. So, saying "happy/controlled on reds" may not be exact enough. The only precise way is to name specific runs at specific resorts with which both the assessor and assessee are familiar. Mind you, snow and visibility conditions can also change the nature of a run from one hour to the next...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Martin Bell, absolutely. La Face at Val d'Isere is a completely different proposition if freshly groomed with good quality snow, compared to huge icy moguls with bare patches.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Did someone mention classic threads? 
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FAQ
