 Poster: A snowHead
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| jjc james wrote: |
Bindingcheck, So far all of the important nations back the ET. So every nation that does, sees anyone that cannot achieve it as not good enough, very simple.
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And do they automatically become a "good teacher" the day after they pass the Eurotest?
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Do believe there was a teach exam last time i checked.
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As part of the ISTD, yes, as part of the ET, no. Which was a point I made earlier. If you do your ET last does it improve you as a teacher or are you already a good teacher as you have gone through every other module & assessment? If your ability to be a good teacher is doing a GS speed test then there is an issue there?
As skill development it is a personal improvement in ones skiing that is the gain; not directly teaching clients.
Most important nations back it because they have the clout and it gives them what they want. The vote to withdraw the legal challenge did not gain enough votes which says that the majority of nations want it challenged which sends a simple message also.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| While the cynics always look at the ET as a purely protectionist measure, the justification for the ET, as has been mentioned by rob@rar amongst others, is that it's the one, sole, objective test in the qualification progression - the clock doesn't lie. |
As you may recall, I have a long record of defending the role of a timed GS test in the many threads on snowHeads that have touched on this matter over the years, despite the fact that I have, as fatbob would say, skin in the game. For all the reasons of accuracy of movement, timing, steering control, etc etc, I think an objective test can play one part of the assessment of an instructor's competence. Not the only part, but one part. But I have yet to see a convincing argument that the only worthwhile test is within 18% of a calibrated opener's time for men and 24% for women. The vast majority of instructors have not demonstrated this standard in their qualifications, and of those that have more than a fair few would not be able to repeat it. Does that mean the vast majority of instructors are not meeting the needs of their clients?
If the argument boils down to Eurotest is essential, v. Eurotest is entirely unnecessary it's not going to play any part in real discussions about qualification structures. We don't have a blank sheet of paper to start with, and BASI is a minor player in these things (although I believe it punches above its weight because of a long standing contribution by officers and staff over the years). But if there is a genuine attempt to relate the standard of the speed test (and other aspects such as the technical exam) to the needs of clients and the working practices of instructors maybe there is progress that can be made.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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I suspect that the whole Eurotest subject would be less contentious if the ISIA qualification was accepted as a pan-European license allowing the holder to instruct across Europe. If that were the case, it's reasonable to have an 'elite' level of qualification to service those clients who need it.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GRAHAMN
Your contribution is exactly what the thread needs. All positions considered and a reasoned argument presented. Hopefully it will have stimulated other readers to balance up what are often entrenched positions.
My observation of your post is not in any way 'sarcastic'. (and I hopful that you did not think that any of my others postings were)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bindingcheck, are you seeking a consensus view to present? (I can see that putting forward a suggestion with lots of signatures on it might be more politically expedient than a scattergun approach.)
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kevindonkleywood, thank you. I'm approaching these threads like the lawyer I once was - with great interest in, but no in depth knowledge of the 'business' in question, but still perhaps able to contribute some ideas on context and on negotiating tactics. Thanks for letting me - it's enjoyable. I so admire all of you who are spending huge amounts of time and money to qualify in a field that produces relatively small financial rewards. It's humbling.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
It might be useful to take some of the pertinent questions raised here about age discrimination, ET procedural inconsistencies, etc and send an open letter to BASI asking for an explanation. |
I mentioned this on monday and if we could get numerous members to sign it would carry some weight
I think two letters are in order. One focused on the Age discrimination aspect and addressed to the Legal Director of BASI
the second to the Alpine Director and CEO regarding BASI's strategy and proposals put forth to the EU.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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JJC JAMES
While my position within the "validity of the Eurotest" debate remains undeclared please be aware that: If I ask questions or write open ended statements it is to find out if people respond after they have been 'thinking', or if they do it out of reaction, or if they just haven't considered the alternatives. Can I illustrate this with the following analogy:
At Phd level at University even after the 4/5 years of study and exams before one gets the award one will be questioned. Most of the questions will not be on what one has done but what one didn't do, and they will want to know why the candidate did not do or did not think option 'x', 'y' or 'z' was viable. The panel are checking the robustness of ones thinking to find out if the research stands up to scrutiny. It is quite like “The Dragons Den” people come in with a great idea and then the Dragons get ripped into them, if the ‘inventor’ can answer the questions then the Dragons are ‘in’. Similarly most readers in this thread are checking to see if your (and others) opinions stand up to scrutiny, and if they do then the readers may alter their own opinion.
In the end, if there is an end to this debate, and you have done your ‘job’ well enough you may be surprised to discover that some of your opinions (at the 'end') and mine coincide.
There were one or two things in your response 26 Mar - 07.25hrs that I was going to question you about but other postee's have already done so. 2 points though.
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Just by training for the ET you need to train with someone with a greater understanding than your own, if you don't learn from this person then that is a big mistake. How well you are taught relates to how well you will teach.
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An immature athlete (possibly, but not necessarily a junior racer) may not learn from the coach in the sense that you suggest. Their learning could be solely centred on the outcome, ie. their personal performance and they may miss out on the process, ie. what they coach was doing which got them there. In which case they could become good enough for Eurotest success or exemption but not picked up the skills which you allude to.
2nd point
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So far all of the important nations back the ET. So every nation that does, sees anyone that cannot achieve it as not good enough, very simple.
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If a non skier read the ISIA minutes they would not describe the actions of FEMPS (Austria) as being the behaviour of an important person/nation, they would spot the behaviour of a bully.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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HURTLE
A consensus view which is sent to BASI would be a positive outcome of this thread. The big problem is who draws together the consensus. Or should that be - how do we draw the consensus together. DOGGER, GRAHAMN, yourself and some others seem to be quite 'neutral' and perhaps KEVINDONKLEYWOOD's suggestion of a vote / referendum click button thingy might be good but something like that could easily be abused if a reader was inclined to do so. AND we would still have to work out what it was that we were going to include on the 'ballot paper'.
SKIMOTTARET is in favour of writing a couple letters to BASI but we would really have to arrive at a consensus before the letter was written.
Of course everyone on this thread could write their own opinions directly to BASI. Generally speaking Members of Parliament take a lot more notice of 100 separate letter's than they do of 1 letter with 100 signatures and I suspect that 'BASI' would be the same.
Oh, I forgot to ask. Are we close to arriving at a consensus?
Below is the link to the "Brussels Agreement" written by FEMPS.
http://www.skiculture.hu/images/stories/hirek/eurotest_en.pdf
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Bindingcheck,
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Generally speaking Members of Parliament take a lot more notice of 100 separate letter's than they do of 1 letter with 100 signatures |
Possibly, but I think that pre-supposes all the letters saying exactly the same thing. In this case, if everyone fires off his own letter, all sorts of different points will be addressed piecemeal and the more important ones would risk getting lost in the muddle. Of course, if a form of letter is agreed and everyone sends the same thing, albeit individually, then that would be good too.
By the way, here's a little time-saver if you would like one: if you want to reply to me specifically, click on my name in the left margin of my post. It will then come up, in bold, in your post, you don't have to type it out, as you have been doing.
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You know it makes sense.
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It is also possible that the wrong approach to any single issue agenda will raise 'antibodies' in the recipients even if they were originaly broadly supportive.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bindingcheck wrote: |
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Just by training for the ET you need to train with someone with a greater understanding than your own, if you don't learn from this person then that is a big mistake. How well you are taught relates to how well you will teach.
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An immature athlete (possibly, but not necessarily a junior racer) may not learn from the coach in the sense that you suggest. Their learning could be solely centred on the outcome, ie. their personal performance and they may miss out on the process, ie. what the[y] coach was doing which got them there. |
For "ordinary" clients you'd have a point. But don't forget that the clientele we're talking about here are (in the vast majority) already ISIA instructors. So they will have done at least 11 weeks of instructor training courses and at delivered least 250 hours of lessons themselves. So they are going to be highly attuned to how a lesson is delivered, and just as interested in how they are taught as what. So I don't think that objection stands.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bindingcheck, Very interesting to read the original agreement and it does have a faint whiff of panic about it and a strong odour of protectionism.
The document falls down at resolution 1 if you start to consider the shape of modern skiing, because the ET confers competence that is relevant to such a small subset of any instructor portfolio of clients. As a national team coach yep maybe it is relevant, but again see my earlier posts.
If you are to accept the bulk text, then this does (IMHO) point towards revalidation being the only real way that the ET could continue to exist and not be seen as a pure 'ethnic' filter for the host country, and as has been pointed out before why have a lower standard for women and not a masters type age adgustment?
I may be wrong (and often am) but like the scientist who looks only for proof that supports their theory, this document seems to have been built around justifying the ET in its historical form and has nothing whatsoever with assuring the quality of teaching., or for that matter supporting the very frist resolution which must be the ultimate goal of the agreement.
It does have a lot to do with a 'closed shop' seeing threats from not only a mobile workforce but a rapidly developing technology that was allowing much more rapid access to higher performance levels of skiing for the general public. A harking back to the era of long straight skis when the instructors were 'gods' ?? *
* added just to stir (sorry)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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An immature athlete (possibly, but not necessarily a junior racer) may not learn from the coach in the sense that you suggest. Their learning could be solely centred on the outcome, ie. their personal performance and they may miss out on the process, ie. what they coach was doing which got them there. In which case they could become good enough for Eurotest success or exemption but not picked up the skills which you allude to.
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This is very true. Although as I wrote in a past post a British team member failed the level 2 based on teaching and had to retake it. He is now working very hard on his teaching before the ISIA teach as it is another step up. You get tested on all elements that go into being a good teacher before you get your qualification. This is what I was suggesting when I mentioned before that the ET does not help you unless you have passed the other modules.
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If a non skier read the ISIA minutes they would not describe the actions of FEMPS (Austria) as being the behaviour of an important person/nation, they would spot the behaviour of a bully.
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They would have to read both view points before they could make an informed decision.
little tiger, Some great points.
Grahamn Well put and pretty much along the lines of what i have been trying to say although evidently badly. I am very much up for a skicross test it would be more fun.
skison If you read Grahamn post i think he does a good job describing its reasons. You need to look past it being just a GS race and look at what goes into the skiing that makes you successful in it. I can only think of 2 candidates who have done everything else and are yet to pass it. As it has been suggested before the ET is often seen as easier than the level 4 tech, so most do the ET first. The training most candidates are doing for the ET greatly improves their piste performance to. If everyone stopped doing this i think the pass rate of the level 4 tech would drop dramatically.
kevindonkleywood, I think you would have to run your poll in a slightly different manner. As bindingcheck pointed out we should not get a vote if we have a vested interest. If you are going through the system having passed it or not passed it you have a vested interest, unless you are happy with the current situation and do not intend to take your qualifications any further.
I suggest:
You take 100 + un biased clients of each level ranging from levels 1 upwards using this scale http://www.snoworks.co.uk/levels.asp (seems a fair scale)
You allow them to watch demos of a specified lesson that’s agreed will benefit clients of that level from all levels of instructor. The instructors would be currently at the standard of Level 1, level 2, level 3 and level 4 (this means they have passed the ET)
You also allow each instructor to spend 5 minutes explaining their background, what is going to be taught and how they will achieve the best possible results from the lesson. This allows the client to asses the instructors skiing and teaching ability. (Its the combination that makes a good lesson)
You then ask them independently who they would like to take the lesson.
This should give a clear view of what the clients paying the money would like to see on a whole serving the industry if they had a choice.
My prediction is that figures such as 98% etc would look very different.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Sat 26-03-11 19:29; edited 2 times in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
Why not get worked up about the time contraint rarther than concentrating on the ET
The main problem is that the ET situation prevents some BASI ISIA's from working in France.
If some want or need to prolong their training or work as a perpetual stagiaire, why not let them. If the ski school they are working for is happy to extend their contract and the BASI ISIA is happy to get lower pay then why not
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Makes sense, good post.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jjc wrote: |
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An immature athlete (possibly, but not necessarily a junior racer) may not learn from the coach in the sense that you suggest. Their learning could be solely centred on the outcome, ie. their personal performance and they may miss out on the process, ie. what they coach was doing which got them there. In which case they could become good enough for Eurotest success or exemption but not picked up the skills which you allude to.
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This is very true. Although as I wrote in a past post a British team member failed the level 2 based on teaching and had to retake it. He is now working very hard on his teaching before the ISIA teach as it is another step up. You get tested on all elements that go into being a good teacher before you get your qualification. This is what I was suggesting when I mentioned before that the ET does not help you unless you have passed the other modules.
skison If you read Grahamn post i think he does a good job describing its reasons. You need to look past it being just a GS race and look at what goes into the skiing that makes you successful in it. I can only think of 2 candidates who have done everything else and are yet to pass it. As it has been suggested before the ET is often seen as easier than the level 4 tech, so most do the ET first. The training most candidates are doing for the ET greatly improves their piste performance to. If everyone stopped doing this i think the pass rate of the level 4 tech would drop dramatically.
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Yes, I acknowledged that earlier that ones personal performance would benefit. I still question what it is that adds to someone being a better ski teacher. I am aware of how it all works and know that most do the ET earlier rather than later. The teachers who are good at their job before doing the ET are still good teachers after it, albeit they may have notched their piste skiing upwards.
BASI have an issue on their hands in that case if in your opinion not training at that level stops you being a good teacher (not being a more able skier, but being a better teacher).
I don't know which team member you are referring to but I would hazard a guess that the reason they failed their teach was lack of hands on teaching experience, not lack of ability. Therefore your previous assumption that high level speed skiing will provide the technical skills you need to become a good teacher unravels as the team member will not be lacking in ability or training at a high performance level. And yes, whoever it is will need to up their knowledge of ski teaching at L3; again the ability to ski fast will help on some but not on every lesson they will be expected to deliver over the 5 days.
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| jjc wrote: |
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An immature athlete (possibly, but not necessarily a junior racer) may not learn from the coach in the sense that you suggest. Their learning could be solely centred on the outcome, ie. their personal performance and they may miss out on the process, ie. what they coach was doing which got them there. In which case they could become good enough for Eurotest success or exemption but not picked up the skills which you allude to.
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kevindonkleywood, I think you would have to run your poll in a slightly different manner. As bindingcheck pointed out we should not get a vote if we have a vested interest. If you are going through the system having passed it or not passed it you have a vested interest, unless you are happy with the current situation and do not intend to take your qualifications any further.
I suggest:
You take 100 + un biased clients of each level ranging from levels 1 upwards using this scale http://www.snoworks.co.uk/levels.asp (seems a fair scale)
You allow them to watch demos of a specified lesson that’s agreed will benefit clients of that level from all levels of instructor. The instructors would be currently at the standard of Level 1, level 2, level 3 and level 4 (this means they have passed the ET)
You also allow each instructor to spend 5 minutes explaining their background, what is going to be taught and how they will achieve the best possible results from the lesson. This allows the client to asses the instructors skiing and teaching ability. (Its the combination that makes a good lesson)
You then ask them independently who they would like to take the lesson.
This should give a clear view of what the clients paying the money would like to see on a whole serving the industry if they had a choice.
My prediction is that figures such as 98% etc would look very different. |
That moves into a different realm of argument. What's the difference between an ISIA who only has their dissertation to complete and fully signed off L4. The answer is a number. "This L3 is not as qualified as me, are you OK to go on the slopes with this teacher?", compare to "We are going out to work on improving your parallel sking on some blue/red runs. This other instructor is perfectly able to to that, are you ok to go on the slopes with this teacher?" Will the client really be bothered that much? I think not.
If it starts getting to that sort of argument then BASI have a huge issue to deal with as they are turning out the wrong calibre of ski teachers and suddenly BASI collapses down to a few hundred people able to teach skiing. Competency to do the job is derived a from various factors.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ISTD is a higher level instructor than ISIA so the comments about prefeence of ISTD over ISIA is a truism under any circumstance. Yes there is a difference and i would also want an ISTD over an ISIA if i was given a choice. |
I'd want someone with a keen eye, an understanding of what's going on, and the communications skills to convey the concepts (which is the tricky one).
I've worked with an ISTD who made a night and day difference to my skiing, while other's have been much less impressive. Conversely I've worked with ISIA's & IVSI's who have been excellent and others who have been less so. While qualification *should* make a difference it's not the be all and end all to finding an effective teacher.
Interestingly those who made a difference to my skiing didn't do it by being able to ski faster or better than me 
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david@mediacopy, Are you possibly suggesting that there is too much emphasis on personal performance in ski instructor qualifications and not enough on the teaching skills required???
I have worked, skied with and had lessons with many levels of instructors and echo your point that it is not always the highest qualified who are the best teachers.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Dunk, perish the thought....
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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EVERYONE
Now this is what I have been looking forward to. Clever, insightful responses that are clearly thought out - well most of them!
Great to see DUNK, Mrs W and others coming in. If there are any more watchers who could make a useful contribution get it onto the thread - if it's unhelpful tosh we will soon let you know, in case you hadn't noticed we are taking this subject very seriously.
Keep it going, think about what you want to say, don't get personal and avoid getting bogged down in the minutia.
JJC James
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They would have to read both view points before they could make an informed decision.
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Do you have some information that we haven't seen yet?
and - who is Kevin?
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in essence i agree with the et ,training towards this improves your skiing ,fact.
what i have diffulty with is that in needs an age handicap.
and should be at a more sensible level ( at any given test there are not that many bad skiers )
the other points mentioned a bit earlier is is an istd that much better than an itsd without eurotest. the former can set up his own ski school or work independently while the other finds
himself unable to go to work
at an esi ski school when you are a stagiere you maybe an itsd without eurotest but you are still only recognized as premier siecle on your livret de formation so should only be able to
teach at a lower level, however in my expeience the school recognized these qualifications and paid you accordingly
as opposed to tt plus prefo .
funnily enough we were all charged out at the same rate
what i would like to see is isia able to work permantly at centre de formation schools and for france to recognized the isia (they vote a lot but do not adhere at all)
if your any good the school would want to keep you cos your gonna make them good money
many times we saw young brit isia s doing a fix job which some older more experienced french national messed up
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You know it makes sense.
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Mrs W,
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I also think the ET pass time should be fair to everyone - young / more mature / men / women.
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I think I know what you mean but here is the rub.
The FEMPS nations think the Eurotest is a fair test for all of the young racers who have 'failed', ie they are not good enough to be in Europa Cup, World Cup or make the National team and then fairly ruthlessly get 'dumped'. Whereas most of the other Nations think it should be a Test to ensure that the skier has achieved an appropriate standard of high speed skiing for the job as a ski instructor, but not necessarily a club race coach.
If I have it wrong - sort me out please.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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sixman,
Russian ice skating judges are notoriously hard to please but that last post would certainly get at least a 5.8
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Poster: A snowHead
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and - who is Kevin?
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possibly me as I had asked
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I would assume that given the popularity of freestyle you would also advocate the introduction for ISTD of a minimum park and pipe standard? perhaps with heights in the quaterpipe within 18% of Simon Dumont's performance. I would be interested if you did not support such a suggestion
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| jjc wrote: |
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What's the difference between an ISIA who only has their dissertation to complete and fully signed off L4. The answer is a number.
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+ a tech course, teach course, Euro test and EMS. Am i missing something here? I did put Instructors at the standard of, meaning that exact level. I also didnt suggest the instructors were competeing for the client eg slagging each other off. Just showing their ski and teaching skills.
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Yes you are missing something here. I did say someone with only their dissertation to complete, I know what makes up the ISTD qualification. The idea that only a number counts when getting a lesson is not accurate hence my response. Also, if the only true mark of a ski teacher is an full cert ISTD then BASI have a major issue to deal with. Are they turning out ski teachers who are actually sub-standard as the % of membership at ISTD level is less than 10%.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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The FEMPS nations think the Eurotest is a fair test for all of the young racers who have 'failed', ie they are not good enough to be in Europa Cup, World Cup or make the National team and then fairly ruthlessly get 'dumped'. Whereas most of the other Nations think it should be a Test to ensure that the skier has achieved an appropriate standard of high speed skiing for the job as a ski instructor, but not necessarily a club race coach.
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I do not want to cause offence but this is way out. I am an opener and i did not make wc ec or the full national alpine team. Being honest i was not what i would call close to EC or WC standard either, eg top 30  . The exemption is i think 80 points (might have changed) 80 points is a long way behind me. Any young racers who treated it seriously would I am 99% sure be exempt. Very few if any of the candidates i see appear to be from a racing background. As i said in a post before 15,000 + exist we 100% no would pass if you added all of us that are no longer ranked or possibly never raced fis + those that are not from a racing background and are at the standard and still need to do the test you could be looking at big numbers. It is a misconception that you need to be very very fast.
kevindonkleywood, I did mean you, sorry i only used half your name i was in a rush. You are quite right, over the last few years freestyle has been becoming more and more popular and we can only assume more and more clients will want to be taught something freestyle related. I have said before that qualifications progress and my guess would be that this is the next thing that will be included. I personally do not know enough about half pipe to agree if 18% is realistic. I imagine a test of this sort would be put in place and lots of research will be done on what sort of % it would be. The 18% for the ET was not plucked from thin air. I imagine they did a lot of research before deciding the level that was appropriate. Again refer to grahamn post he does a good job explaining the reasons for the standard.
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I don't know which team member you are referring to but I would hazard a guess that the reason they failed their teach was lack of hands on teaching experience, not lack of ability. Therefore your previous assumption that high level speed skiing will provide the technical skills you need to become a good teacher unravels as the team member will not be lacking in ability or training at a high performance level. And yes, whoever it is will need to up their knowledge of ski teaching at L3; again the ability to ski fast will help on some but not on every lesson they will be expected to deliver over the 5 days.
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I have not assumed this. I am agreeing that technical ability alone is not the sole basis to being a good instructor. Far from it infact. If you want to achieve the top level in instructors qualifications though you need both.
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Are you possibly suggesting that there is too much emphasis on personal performance in ski instructor qualifications and not enough on the teaching skills required???
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If you believe this is true and i am not suggesting its not. Then do you not need to try and get them to increase the difficulty of the teach exams rather than try and reduce the level of the tech exams? My view and many others is that the tech elements are about right.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Yes you are missing something here. I did say someone with only their dissertation to complete, I know what makes up the ISTD qualification. The idea that only a number counts when getting a lesson is not accurate hence my response. Also, if the only true mark of a ski teacher is an full cert ISTD then BASI have a major issue to deal with. Are they turning out ski teachers who are actually sub-standard as the % of membership at ISTD level is less than 10%.
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I see. Then you should note I said instructors at the standard of. Of course there are candidates in between and some level 2 who might pass everything at istd standard but still need to go through the qualifications. The qualifications provide evidence that you should be able to do the job. I am not sure if it would work if we relied on self proclamation and assumption.
I do not think it’s fair to say BASI are turning out sub standard ski teachers. It is our responsibilities as ski instructors to meet the requirements. These requirements have to be equal across the board. Britain not being massive on snowsports can not expect to compete with the number of instructors a alpine nation can churn out. It is unrealistic.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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[quote="jjc"]
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I see. Then you should note I said instructors at the standard of. Of course there are candidates in between and some level 2 who might pass everything at istd standard but still need to go through the qualifications. The qualifications provide evidence that you should be able to do the job. I am not sure if it would work if we relied on self proclamation and assumption.
I do not think it’s fair to say BASI are turning out sub standard ski teachers. It is our responsibilities as ski instructors to meet the requirements. These requirements have to be equal across the board. Britain not being massive on snowsports can not expect to compete with the number of instructors a alpine nation can churn out. It is unrealistic. |
I'm not clear on your stance here. Are you of the opinion that only full cert ISTDs should be teaching or do you accept that lower qualifications in BASI are acceptable? I may ne wrong here but are you aligning with the French output of instructor training? If you are of the opinion that the the only reasoanable instructor qualification is a full cert ISTD then what are BASI supposed to do with anyone below that standard?
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jjc,
Point taken. I was actually thinking about the ones who don't make it out of being 'club' standard and don't race beyond Junior age, but I stand corrected.
But if such a large number of 'college' students pass, as has been stated in an earlier post, is it not because they had previous racing experience?
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skison, My stance is similar to grahamn round up and Mrs W post earlier. I don’t see why you should be blocked from working if you do a fantastic job with an ISIA etc (I view it as a qualification). I think though if you stop at that stage for any reason then you have to respect that there will be ISTD's or other countries equivalents competing for the jobs and by completing the modules that they have had to achieve they will appear to be and should be a better choice. I believe the ISTD serves a purpose for a much larger % than others have suggested. I believe we should always be trying to progress ourselves and that the client deserves the best possible instructor considering the price of lessons. A brilliant lesson is better than an acceptable one so we should try for brilliant. I believe that fantastic teaching and fantastic skiing ability leads to a good quality lesson not just one or the other. If they can’t do the job then the ski school will spot that. The ISTD should show competency accross all levels and therefor is more beneficial to the ski school. I think it compares to 1st 2:1 and 3rd class degrees in the sense that by having the higher end qualification it gives you a better chance of getting through the door and then you still have to prove yourself. There is lots of this in my posts over the past pages but i understand its easy with the nature of online forums to miss things and interpret stuff differently to its true intended meaning. I am guilty of this as are others.
I suggested an alternative poll because kevindonkleywood, had suggested it would be good to do one. Although as bindingcheck had mentioned if you have a vested interest you shouldn’t have a say. Am i wrong in saying everyone in the system has a vested interest? It appears that way to me. I thought this may be a good way to do it as we all agree (or i hope) that we should be trying to best serve the clients and not ourselves. By doing this i thought it would allow the client to have the say rather than us.
I also respect that if FEMPS nations have enough fully cert instructors then they have no need to lower the standard in their areas. why should they? I dont see how this benefits the clients visiting these areas. Its suggested your not lowering the standard but an ISTD standard instructor should be delivering better lessons than a ISIA it seems sensible that if they have passed higher teaching and technical modules then they should be delivering better all round lessons and that the ET is just the technical exam thats not subject to opinion again grahamn explains this well. I am yet to hear any reasons that would make me think otherwise.
I know there is the whole legality side and i can’t comment on this, i don’t know enough to add any value. I can only say i would have thought if it was illegal then it wouldn’t have survived as long as it has or looks to.
Bindingcheck, James could ask the French openers the sort of candidates who are at these colleges. I would guess its more because the college will give them substantial training and only enter them when they are ready because they have limited attempts unlike the brits. We are very lucky in that sense.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Was having a chat last night and heard that a 56 year old got the tech and ET this season and is now a full cert!
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| jjc james wrote: |
| Was having a chat last night and heard that a 56 year old got the tech and ET this season and is now a full cert! |
If it's the same guy i know he passed his tech this year and his ET a few years ago. many congrats to him.
There are a few in the 'Saga' group who are close at times and keep training hard to attain the magic holy grail.
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FAQ
polled view of the feelings regarding the ET however it would need to be carefull designed so as to ensure a meaningful result.
Staatliche APSI 3 examiner trainer Disabled Cert
and a good one, so has a very race focused training requirement.
