 Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
easiski, a quick apology, i had said that you thought american instructors were greedy, but you quite rightly corrected me and had actually said the ski companies that employ them are... soz.... a big difference and one i agree with!
Is it a fact that in the states and Canada Instructors work for very low wages and get most of their income from tips?
On a general note it sounds to me from this thread a lot of people are arguing that an entry level qualified teacher will somehow be a better communicator/teacher for beginner/intermediates than a fully qualified ISTD that has passed a Speed test. All ISTD's were grade 3's at some point but had the dedication to get a higher qualification. Given there is no shortage of instructors in France/Italy why reduce the entry level qualification?
laundryman, Interesting that you "hire 2:1's masters degrees and phd's from leading universities." I am surprised you place such emphasis on qualifications for your staff when you feel so strongly that they mean so little when it comes to teaching skiing...
Roy Hockley, I dont think you know what the Speed test is... not having a go, but it isnt a straight line down the mountain, it is a timed GS race through gates. I understand that the GS is considered by most racers to be the "purest" test of overall technique.. Being able to run gates well demonstrates a good level of skiing ability, not just b"lls. |
Well Said.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| laundryman, Interesting that you "hire 2:1's masters degrees and phd's from leading universities." I am surprised you place such emphasis on qualifications for your staff when you feel so strongly that they mean so little when it comes to teaching skiing... |
You have misunderstood my position. If the government forbade me by law from hiring 2:2s or less (as I do, some of the time), I would be very cross indeed. That is all.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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laundryman, So your main beef is government interference, control and licensing rather than training and qualifications?
I think GrahamN, summarised your libertarian leanings well so i wont comment further other than to say when there is a personal safety risk such as receiving treatment from a doctor, learning to ski, or receiving instruction on other risky pursuits regulation should IMHO be in force. The government or an industry body is best placed to determine minimum levels of competency by granting licenses to practice. Not market forces or un informed personal choice.
If we took your tack learning to ski would be like learning to parasail behind a skiboat at a holiday resort, completely unregulated but risky none the less. Some operators/instructors are honourable and well trained, others are cowboys and can get you hurt. I wouldnt want to risk trying to figure out who i was hiring by trying an unregulated firm in a potentially hazardous sport.
If you have kids, would you have them taught skiing by someone who wasnt licensed but you felt may be qualified for whatever reason? (recommendation, cool web site, talked a good game, gave you a free lesson)
If your answer is yes what is your selection criteria?
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As I commented above, as far as I am aware, you can seek (and pay for) advice and treatment from any species of medical practitioner you like (members of the royal family and the prime minister's spouse seem to make some interesting choices, if the tabloids are to be believed) and likewise for ski instructors in North America and I suspect the UK. The sky doesn't seem to have fallen in. So yes, I have bought unlicensed (I think) services from instructors in the US, though not for some time. As for selection criteria, normally after a 5 minute chat about my requirements with some supervisory person, as far as I can remember.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You have to have a licence to teach any outdoor pursuits in the UK including skiing, although it is possible to work on a log book (but then so it is in europe).  It's also necessry to take tests or exams to be a jockey, train racehorses and a myriad other occupations that don't seem to bother Mr. Laundryman.
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I would have been appalled to find out that any of the instructors we've used of any nationality were unlicensed/unqualified. In a litigious society like US, I'm surprised anyone would want to work like that for fear of being sued.
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laundryman, The sky hasnt fallen in because the vast majority of people teaching are licensed and qualified. COuld you answer the quesion, would you put your kids in the hands of an unlicensed instructor?
and as a layman do you think a 5 minute chat with a supervisor (who in your world could very well be unqualified as well) suffices to determine if that person will be able to teach. Lets assume you are a complete beginner without any knowledge of skiiing what do you ask during your 5 minute chat?
I could be wrong but i would be amazed that a USA ski resort would have instructors without any qualifications on their books.
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At least I know that the instructors in France, whatever their language, nationality,or affinity to a ski school , will need to be properly qualified to teach. How would your holiday insurance be affected if you suffered an injury whilst being instructed by someone unqualified?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Helen Beaumont, It would undoubtedly be nullified.
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easiski, as I thought. So a skier could be stuck in the USA with a huge medical bill, and no chance of insurance paying out on your claim.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| laundryman, The sky hasnt fallen in because the vast majority of people teaching are licensed and qualified. |
Is that the case in the USA and Canada? The licensed bit, that is? If there is a licence, are the qualifications required as stiff as those in European countries (France in particular)?
| Quote: |
| COuld you answer the quesion, would you put your kids in the hands of an unlicensed instructor? |
In a state/country without a licensing scheme, yes. The fact that, in the USA, instruction is controlled by the resort says to me that they're not going to take undue risk to their reputation, or leave themselves open to negligence claims, by hiring untrained incompetents (for the level of instruction they're assigned). I have a vague recollection of being accosted on the mountain at Squaw by some bloke offering the family some guiding or instruction or some blend of the two, but I wouldn't have accepted the offer at any price.
In countries with a licensing regime, probably not, for insurance considerations. In all countries, I would want some level of assurance that they had at least a basic qualification. Since the kids gained their Snowlife 9* awards (the highest) some years ago, of course they're looking for more than that now.
I'm pretty sure that when the kids were younger, they were at greater risk skiing with me than with any instructor I've ever hired, perhaps excepting when they've been at the back of a long ESF snake.
| Quote: |
| and as a layman do you think a 5 minute chat with a supervisor (who in your world could very well be unqualified as well) suffices to determine if that person will be able to teach. Lets assume you are a complete beginner without any knowledge of skiiing what do you ask during your 5 minute chat? |
I think I asked her what she did when she got off duty.
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| I could be wrong but i would be amazed that a USA ski resort would have instructors without any qualifications on their books. |
So would I.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman, in the USA the instruction is not regulated by the resort all instructors in the USA must have a license from the PSIA Professional Ski Instructor of America. there are three levels Grade 1, II and III which roughly translate as a british BASI trainee, instructor grade 3 and a grade 2. THe USA doesnt have the equivalent for a grade 1 BASI.
Skiing is "controlled" in that in the states the skiing/restaurants/lifts etc within the resort is typically run by a single company in a disneyland concept.
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I have a vague recollection of being accosted on the mountain at Squaw by some bloke offering the family some guiding or instruction or some blend of the two, but I wouldn't have accepted the offer at any price.
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Why not? didnt he impress you with his 5 minute chat? Your flippant remark about your selection criteria shows how weak your argument is....
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In all countries, I would want some level of assurance that they had at least a basic qualification.
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isnt that what you have been arguing against all along???? the assurance is the license...
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laundryman, we have both skied with the same instructors at different times, do you not notice any difference in their technical ability or teaching ability which corresponds to their level of qualification? The ones that are ISTD's are in my opinion much better skiers and teachers than the others. The law is in place to protect the consumer who should then have confidence in in the quality of lessons they recieve.
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret, this from the "benefits" page of the PSIA website:
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| PSIA certification is recognized across the country, and often can mean increased wages, additional benefits, and recognition. |
It would seem that, contrary to your assertion, PSIA certification/qualification is not a legal requirement (licence).
Dunk, yes I do recognise the difference.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, have a good one; hope there's plenty of snow soon in your area. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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laundryman, Contrary to your assertion I do know what the speed test is. You just have not grasped my point. Are you really telling me and this forum that some ordinary / entry level ESF teacher would be better able to teach me than easiski, . The speed test does nothing to judge how well the isntructor can teach.
I am saying that to teach well you do not have to do the Eurotest. I accept that is part of the examination and I will not argue with the different bodies right to set it. It is just not relevant to be able to TEACH, nothing to do with ability, JUST TO TEACH.
Do you have snow in Mottaret? Here in Norwayat the moment it is a green christmas.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Roy Hockley, I think you may have fingered the wrong person. Not guilty, your honour! 
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| It is just not relevant to be able to TEACH, nothing to do with ability, JUST TO TEACH. |
Do you think there is any relationship between an instructor's technical ability and their teaching ability? My partner is a very good teacher of young children, specializing in early years education. She is, however, only a modest skier, with not very good technique. Do you think she would make a good ski instructor, because her teaching skills are second to none?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hi Stuarth,
I live in Ontario and just found this topic.
I only skied for 5 years and learn in "CSIA" way from the beginning . My first instructor is a level II, and I changed to Level III 2 years ago.
I will ski in La Plagne in January (first trip ever in Europe) but I am a little concerned if the European teaching method is different from CSIA ? We all know that every CSIA III instructors teach exactly the same method. Any comments/advices.
I think the private lesson fee in Europe is still reasonable compare to what I paid C.$670 / day private in Whistler!!!
Merry Christmas
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Skimak, there is no huge difference in philosophy, and actually CSIA III and IV are well regarded over here. There may be slight differences in focus, but that is likely to vary from instructor to instructor anyway. In France nearly all ski teachers are theoretically self employed and the ski schools are collectives, therefore there is more room for individuality. the exceptions may be the British Ski Schools - I know some of them are owned businesses, and do employ their instructors. You should talk to the ski school of your choice and explain where you've learnt and the focus you've been working on, then they should be able to follow a similar pattern. 
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easiski, Thanks for your good info.
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Les Gets BASS max 8 in a class taught by BASI Ski Teacher, ESF 15 in class taught by someone who could'nt care less if your kid learnt anything or not. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, To be a primary school teacher (or teacher of young children), you must have a basic degree and then a Hdip in education. Although you may teach maths to primary school students, you may need to know maths to O level or possibly A level. You probably do not need to have a Masters or even a Third level degree.
In fact not many primary school teachers have doctorates, well not many that I know of. I grant you that a few University lecturers I know do, some however do not. So the level of expertise to needed to teach primary school children is probablya good analogy as teaching primary level skiers! Once she has the required level of experience I am sure she could advise many.
laundryman,  apologies. Bloody computers! I was of course reffering to skimottaret,
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| So the level of expertise to needed to teach primary school children is probablya good analogy as teaching primary level skiers! Once she has the required level of experience I am sure she could advise many. |
With the greatest respect to my girlfriend, she would make an awful ski teacher as she simply does not have a good enough understanding of fundamental ski technique, no matter how good her pedagogic skills. Although she has done many week's of skiing , her understanding of technique is very limited and is certainly not comparable with her understanding of how to teach maths, for example. What Jane will tell you, is that having your most able teachers to teach the youngest children pays dividends in the long run. I think the same applies to skiing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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If your looking for quality tuition in Tignes try Alpine Logic on 0673 241925.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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You know it makes sense.
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Welcome to s Alpine Logic. I'll add my plea to contribute content, rather than just trying to push services.
| Spyderman wrote: |
| Les Gets BASS max 8 in a class taught by BASI Ski Teacher, ESF 15 in class taught by someone who could'nt care less if your kid learnt anything or not. You pays your money and you takes your choice. |
I do think that's a tad unkind and disengenuous. I don't doubt the dedication and commitment of the ESF instructors is any less than the BASI ones. I do, however, support the general argument about how much less / more you're likely to learn if your class is 12-15 over a class of 6-8.
| skimottaret wrote: |
| Given there is no shortage of instructors in France/Italy why reduce the entry level qualification. |
To be fair, skimottaret, I'm not sure that the EuroTest regime has been in place long enough to assess its impact on teacher numbers. The exemptions granted at the time of introduction means that most of the ski intructors in my area won't have been through the regime. Certainly, most of the BASI qualified ones I've had have been honest enough to wonder whether they would have made it through the speed test.
| Roy Hockley wrote: |
...The speed test does nothing to judge how well the isntructor can teach.
I am saying that to teach well you do not have to do the Eurotest. |
I completely agree.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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PhillipStanton, Most of us who were exempted were exempted on the grounds of age and experience, as previously stated. there are a surprising number of new BASI instructors out in Europe - you just can't have been far enough to meet them! 10 passed in Alpe d'Huez BTW.
Re: Spyderman's 15 in a class - if you have a class of 15 all you have time to do is to count heads. You can keep them safe, but it's an impossible task to teach them anything as well! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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15 in a class - the biggest class I have been in is eight - normally six max.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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In lessons in the US and Canada I have never been in a group of more that 6 and usually 2 or 3. My kids have never been in groups more than 8 and usually 4-6. On one occaision when it was 8, the director of the ski school came to aplogise to me. Family holidays will continue to be over there for the forseeable future....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I taught a 7 year old girl this year who was in an ESF class in Morzine in Feb 06, there were 15 in her class and she was left on the mountain for 2.5 hours, found by a british couple sitting in the snow crying, her Instructor had gone off shift and did'nt even realise that 1 was missing. The couple took her to a restaurant and they called ESF. She was collected by ESF and returned to her Parents that afternoon. the ESF did not tell the Parents that she had been lost, it was only when the couple that had found her contacted the Parents later that evening that the story came out. The Parents went to ESF the next morning and only then were they told. the girl would not leave my side thoughout the lesson, for fear of me leaving her. Her confidence had been destroyed.
I have seen first hand the behaviour of the ESF in Les Gets, especially towards BASS instructors and it is disgraceful.
I stand by my previous comments.
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Spyderman,
That's a terrible story and deserves condemnation but I can't believe all local ski schools are capable of that.
Reading these pages you'd think there wasn't a foreign school capable of teaching anything...almost
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I would ask a question regarding Spyderman's definitely dreadful story. Was this in French School Hols, or worse, UK half term?
Part of the difficult economy of the winter is that for those 2-5 weeks there are simply not enough instructors to go around. And there isn't enough work in the rest of the season to give full employment to the whole ski school. So for this highest of high season all sorts of instructors come "out of the woodwork".
Plus. it would appear that many parents simply want their kids taken off their hands for a few hours. Therefore many will be happy for their kids to be in a class of 15 - or at least, happy if that is the only alternative. I have a vague recollection that the ESF state that they will try and keep headcount to 10 except during the vacances scolaires.
What seems to have failed (and with results that could have been much worse) is the instructors ability to manage the head count.
I have seen disgraceful behaviour from ESF instructors towards ESF instructors too...
IMHO, people pay more for a "British ski schools" because you are far more likely to get an instructor whose mother tongue is some variety of English and there is a received perception that the quality of instruction will be better. This is not necessarily the case...but awfully difficult to determine in advance.
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| easiski wrote: |
| ...you just can't have been far enough to meet them... |
Fair enough easiski - I must get out more!
Spyderman - I have, but won't share, some equally dreadful stories of the Les Gets ESF. I'm fundamentally with you - but think it unfair to tar the whole ski school / teaching system. Although, if many more stories of ESF in Les Gets crop up, I may revise my opinion...
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David Murdoch,
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I have a vague recollection that the ESF state that they will try and keep headcount to 10 except during the vacances scolaires.
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I suspect it varies from ESF school to school, I have come across some really good ones with my kids but I have certainly seen some very large classes outwith the Vacances Scolaires. They have usually been with older instructors when there have been other instructors with no lessons at all.
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T Bar, That's their dreadful priority system. The better, younger instructors oftern don't get much work outside the Vacances Scolaires - makes it difficult for them to save up enough money to pay for their courses!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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easiski, bringing us back to the economics I tangentially referred to. As a local, aspirant instructor, why would you welcome inbound Johnny foreigners? If there's not enough work to go around the locals all year...
It seems to me to be a reasonably standard developmental/transitional problem. The status quo of 10 years (20 years+) ago doesn't work anymore and the alpine economies and the participants thereof are (as humans usually do) finding it hard to embrace change.
T Bar, I would imagine it does, I should have clarified that I had the Morzine school in mind. I would stress that this was a vague recollection...
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Ok, this is what I saw in Les Gets in mid March 06. Female BASS instructor teaching a small group of small children, queing up to use the travelator in the fenced off beginer area. Male ESF instructor tried to push in, in front of her class in the que for the lift, when she objected, he told her that ESF had priority, she said they did not. ESF continued to push in and the ESF instructor pushed a 5 year old English over and out of the way, so his class could get on the lift first.
Another incedent, was we were skiing down to the village, on a red run at fairly high speed in convoy, when our lead person, who is a BASI 1 Trainer, went over a blind crest, only to find an ESF instructor with a class of English students stopped in a line across the slope. He advised the ESF instructor that he had his class in a dangerous position and that he had a group coming though iminently, he hurled abuse at him and ignored his warning. Once we all got to the bottom the ESF instructor came up to our trainer swearing and abusing him in front of us and his class. Our Trainer said he would only discuss his conduct in the ESF office.
I think the problem with ESF on the whole is that most of their Instructors are local people who are teaching skiing for a living in the winter as there is very little alternative employment that pays as well, and they see the British Ski Schools as foreigners taking their living from them, and resent them for it.
I question their genuine reasons for becoming an Instructor, they are no doubt good skiers, who fall into instructing as an employment avenue, where as BASI Instructors tend to be much more motivated and commited to teaching, as generally their path to becoming an instructor is nomally far from easy. The French have persistantly moved the goalposts in order to protect the local instructors and BASS, I know have had to pursue their right to operate in France, though the French courts on several occasions.
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