 Poster: A snowHead
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| KenX wrote: |
| @swskier, it's a bit like the monitor mode, but you get XP points, whatever they are! |
Those XP points is what basically makes me think they're just turning it more in to a game. Kind of meaningless.
I tend to just use freeski mode, unless I want to work on something specific, earlier in the season I did use balance mode on a day there was zero visibility so couldn't go for it anyway.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, I think the various monitor modes are the best so long as you can deal with the data in your ear on every turn!
And like you I mostly use Free Ski mode.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Does this thing talk to you while you ski?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Gordyjh wrote: |
| Does this thing talk to you while you ski? |
If you want it to, but only once you've stopped.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Met up for a blast with a guy off the CARV community today, here on day 2 of his holiday, I stopped on the side of the piste and spotted a runaway ski, trapped it and realised it was his, the rear binding had come off! Sadly I had to call a bloodwagon for him as he'd busted his collarbonne in the fall 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I'm not sure if I'm a fan of Carv or not after this weeks experience with Carv in Trois Vallee.
I skied with monitor mode for early edging and was getting random angle scores range from 0dg to 69dg on what was basically a green section of run so clearly the angles were way out. I first noticed this issue last December when using monitor mode then, but put it down to a glitch and reset/resynced to supposedly sort. I ran a little investigation over Xmas by trying manual pressure readings on both soles and found the left more responsive than the right, but again put that down to my feet being stiffer on one foot vs the other. I also contacted support to discuss the issue and they took a look at the data and couldn't identify an immediate fault.
However, having tried monitor mode again this trip and found the issue clearly exists, I've contacted support and they've agreed to a replacement under warranty due to a faulty left insert. Note they agreed replacement after only 15 mins of support discussion so either this is a well known fault or support is just excellent! I've also taken a look at my data form last March and noticed that my turns one way are nearly always worse than the other way, which I now wonder if it's down to a faulty insert!
I think I can conclude that I've had an issue since I bought Carv so basically all my data is questionable! That's a year of Carv use trying to work on aspects I'm not sure I needed to work on so much ... only a working Carv will help me further on that.
What is most concerning about this is I would have never known there was an issue without using monitor mode and picking up readings of 0dg on the audio, as all other modes wouldn't show this. I imagine most folks don't use monitor mode so much so may miss if they have this issue?
I hope this is a rarity but it does colour my view of Carv a little until I can be confident of the data. Anybody else seen this issue?
I posted this in the Carv FB forum but interestingly the admins have not approved my post after several days ... Carv is one of the admins!!
Now had Carv marked me as Grim Reaper I'd no doubt happily have ignored this issue but sadly I'm stuck at 133 
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Just back from ten days in Sun Peaks.
I've had 4 or 5 sessions with @rob@rar at Hemel over the autumn working on inside ski control, so was pleased to get much better Balance scores - with pressure smoothness and parallel scores regularly above 70% and occasionally hitting over 80. Turn shape also around 10 points better than this time last year.
As I've mentioned before, I find it a useful tool to confirm that I'm doing what I want to be doing, but I wouldn't use it without a 'real' coach.
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@narbs, I agree, it's a great tool and good fun, but to get the most out of it, you need some 3rd party feedback, either from a knowledgable mate or instructor, also video analysis is very useful to understand what you're actually doing, rather than relying on digital feedback.......
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Just got mine and going through the motions of installing the insoles in my boots. Heading to Flaine later in the week.
For anyone looking for a £40/€40 discount link...
https://shorturl.at/jAHT7
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Mon 18-03-24 12:35; edited 3 times in total
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@alanmac, Hope you enjoy CARV, but don't let it dominate your skiing!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I'll try not to! Doing a week with full-day instruction at UCPA/Action Outdoors so combined with the real coaching, the feedback should be useful. Hoping it'll notice if I don't shift weight early, etc. I've bought some cheap & cheerful bluetooth in-helmet earphones too - does everyone tend to use Carv with earphones or just review the feedback on the chair? I like the idea of instant feedback.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@alanmac, I don't bother with earphones, but tend to only use CARV when i'm skiing on my own, and i'll just try and get a lift by myself so the feedback doesn't bother others.
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I use just one earbud so I can hear people talk and also what's going on around me!
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You know it makes sense.
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@jed ellerby, best way to get quick feedback from CARV is to open a chat direct from the app, my friend had an insole die on him and they dispatched a warranty replacement within 48 hrs.........
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Yesterday I'd just skinned up to a lift and was transitioning and out of the corner of my eye saw this guy skiing down obviously "carving" and thought no more about it and went back to faffing.
I then heard him call out my name as his OH then arrived, they're very good friends of ours!
Cut a long story short, he was a classic Geezonaire, been skiing for years but with no great technique happy to slide down the piste, and
I talked him into buying Carv.
And the results are quite amazing, and he knows it with his scores gradually increasing, and was most enthusiastic about it all as we shared the lift back-up.
I then skied down with him and had to work hard to stay with him, so he has huge confidence, a great testimonial to Carv indeed!
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Poster: A snowHead
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Carv have a new category of 160+, so today's aim is to get as close as possible to that
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@swskier, I can only dream
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@KenX, unfortunately piste conditions on the glacier were too soft and then chopped up. Managed to match my top score of 154, but no progression.
There's always next time! 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@swskier, nice - are you IASI 2 qualified working towards 3 or already 3?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@swskier, pity 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@kitenski, still level 2, I just need to pass my 2nd discipline, teach and 2nd language tests.
So I could call myself a 2 1/2?
I also need to get the teaching hours in and that's the trickier aspect as visa conditions are not currently allowing that, so i'm focussing on GS to try and pass the speedtest.
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Unsure if there is a clear answer to this question but perhaps just looking for advice. I was given Carve for Xmas a few years ago and was a bit sceptical. I'm probably an intermediate skier who spends his day trying to keep up with his annoyingly good kids (who all went through ESF). I have hired various skis from Volkl Racetiger RC last week (really nice fast ski) , Bramha Blizzard 88 (overall favourite) and Atomic Maverick 86 (took me a while to work it out but lovely) last year and Salomon Smax 8 (forgiving but so easy to initiate carving) depending on the ski conditions. I'm getting consistent scores around 138-144, with higher scores for Edging and Rotary (~80) and consistently lower scores for Balance and Pressure (~70). I spend nearly all my time trying to modulate the fore aft foot pressure through the turn, but i struggle to increase the scores.
I guess my question is that the type of ski doesn't seem to alter my scores, nor does the piste conditions (unless icy). This makes little sense to me. Clearly the piste ski's are easier to get onto the edge, but why aren't I scoring higher on the piste ski's with groomed snow, where it should be easier to control fore/aft pressure etc.
Had a lesson last year but gleaned very little from it.
Just wonder if this tally's with anyone else's use of carve. Its a fun tool, has its uses and limitations, but I'm not sure if I will renew the subscription when it ends in December....
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@risb98, carv only measures the pressure in your foot. It doesn't actually know if a ski is on its edge or at what angle. You could do the same foot pressure in two different skis and carv will score you the same, but actual performance may be massively different due to different skis.
The problem with fore/aft is carv can't tell you why you are too far back or forward. It could be ankle flexibility, it could be hip position, it could be bending at the waist etc.
Unfortunately it's the limitation of trying to reduce skiing down to just a measurement of foot pressure.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@boarder2020, no gyroscope data to directly measure tip angle?
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@rob@rar, the problem is it doesn't know slope angle. Imagine traversing horizontally across a hypothetical piste that varies from 10 degrees to 50 degrees. Potentially your ski stays perfectly "level" but your edge angle in relation to the surface will massively change.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@boarder2020, OK, I understand that, all things are relative. I don’t know much about Carv, but assumed that some sort of sensor would be employed to measure directly how much the ski is tipped from horizontal or vertical, with your important caveat about the slope angle. Can this be measured indirectly with one, or more, pressure sensors?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@boarder2020, @rob@rar, it does give you edge angle, how it works that out I don't know, but it gives you that figure.
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@boarder2020, just had a quick look at the Carv website and it says each footbed has 36 pressure sensors and a motion sensor, although it doesn’t define what/how the motion sensor measures.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Can this be measured indirectly with one, or more, pressure sensors?
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I suspect they are using a gyroscope to measure foot angle and some kind of algorithm to estimate ski angle from that. I'm trying to think how you could actually measure ski angle in relation to the surface, but I can't think of an easy way even with all the tech available. It's made even more complex by the fact that ski slopes are rarely completely planar, lots of bumps and slightly different pitches. Would be interesting to know how accurate their algorithm prediction is, i don't think they published any white papers.
Even if you get an accurate ski angle estimate though, what is actually good? The carv website says "the optimal edge angle depends on the steepness and snow conditions of the slope". Which is problematic when they dont know slope angle or conditions!
Let's ignore that though and say carv accurate estimates ski angle and knows steepness and snow conditions. How does carve coach you? It doesn't know what the rest of your body is doing, so it can't give you a fix for why your ski angle is off. It's the case of knowing the problem, but not the cause.
The irony is a good instructor would kind of do the opposite. They wouldn't need to measure your ski angle with any accuracy. They'd look at what you body was doing and fix the cause.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@boarder2020, all very good points.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@rob@rar, it's almost like I worked in this field for a while  I actually used a foot pressure sensor around 18 years ago. They were pretty useless back then, I'm sure the technology works much better now. Generally we stuck to static force plates as much more accurate and our stuff was lab based anyway. Usually you would combine it with motion capture of the body, as just knowing what is happening at the foot/ground is quite limited.
Sporting technique is extremely interesting but it's one of those things where the more you know the more you realise we don't know. More and more it seems like a single "optimum" technique doesn't exist. The human body simply has too many degrees of freedom, meaning you can produce the same performance outcome in too many ways. That's before you get into individual differences and equipment. Also there is the wrong idea that elites have consistent technique. When actually we see the elites have more movement variability than the very good, which makes sense in dynamic sports like skiing as gives them the ability to adapt to conditions. But weirdly we even see it in very closed skills like triple jump and piano playing, where you would think consistent movement would be more favourable.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@boarder2020, what carv has as part of its subscription model is a video coaching feature. So you can get someone to film your run, it then overlays the ski IQ for each turn on top. It's then submitted and one of their coaches comes back with feedback.
I don't know any more detail than that as I haven't used the feature yet.
I'd agree though that it probably helps to know a bit about skiing and be able to self coach to really utilise it, but I think it's a handy tool generally, especially if used alongside instruction. It's definitely not a replacement for instruction.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@swskier, I'm not quite sure the video coaching feature gives you individual feedback. I think coaches "score" your run and the data is then fed back into the carv algorithm. The feedback is for carv algorithm rather than you. That's at least what I'm getting from their website, but it's not the most clear to me https://getcarv.com/blog/video-mode-bringing-a-new-dimension-to-carv
What would be interesting is to have coaches see the video with and without the carv data and ask them how the skier should improve. If when they have the carv data in addition to video they are picking up different things and suggesting different solutions it would potentially be a pretty strong endorsement.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Thanks all for really interesting discussion and having done some biomechanics I agree Carv can only infer what the rest of the body is doing. It cant replace a good instructor, but has given me lots to think about and in general has improved one aspect of my skiing: carving.
The instructor I had probably didnt know what questions I was asking, and said I was a good skier and I shouldn't try to ski like my 20 something like kids cos I'm not in my 20's.
I think my question is that the scores I am getting are very reproducible, on 4 holidays my best has been 144. Very different skis and very different conditions. I would assume a short radius carving ski like the Racetiger on grippy groomed snow would, all other things being equal , enable higher scores, compared to say the Bramha's in spring chop. The app is now asking you to describe the snow conditions for each run and how aggressively you feel you are skiing which I presume adds into their algorithm
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| alanmac wrote: |
Just got mine and going through the motions of installing the insoles in my boots. Heading to Flaine later in the week.
For anyone looking for a £40/€40 discount link...
https://shorturl.at/jAHT7 |
Just back from a great week in Flaine and following on from my original post..
Afraid my Carv experiment was a bit of a flop. Despite trying them on at home, after a little skiing I was experiencing some pressure related pain on the bridge of my left foot. The right foot was fine. This reflected a previous experience with some volume reducing insoles in both boots - best results obtained with an extra 2mm insole in the right boot & just my moulded insole in the left boot. I guess this fit problem could be addressed by punching out the shell or changing out the stock boot board for something thinner. Anyway, it was more of a discomfort than serious pain and previous experience suggested a bit of skiing might soften things up (it didn't...), so I decided to soldier on. I paired up the sensors with the a cheap in-helmet Bluetooth headset I'd gotten from Amazon (31 euros, performed flawlessly), calibrated the insoles and off I went. First thing I noticed was a voice in my ear telling me 'Bad connection to left sensor ' followed almost immediately by 'Bad connection restored'. This became a constant nag - at least every 20 to 30 seconds. It made conversation difficult with my skiing partner. Conditions on the day weren't great for medium-big carved turns - was snowing, poor vis, etc. Skied in Free Ski mode - eventually achieving a SkiIQ of 107. The tracking section of the app did record conditions as 'Extreme ungroomed snow' for most of the day. I then switched to the Edging mode and this was where I lost confidence in the hardware... I skied a gentle slope and carved some turns getting the angles fed back to me in the headset. Seemed to be very inconsistent. I then stopped on the side... not moving, stood still as I could... and I kept getting fed back wildly different angles in my headset! Now I can understand a few degrees of difference standing still but the figures were bouncing all over the place - regretfully I can't remember the ranges reported. At some stage I also switched my phone to a pocket on the left side to see if it would solve the connection issue with the left sensor. I thought it did, as I started getting the same message but for the right sensor. Then I started getting warnings for both the left and the right sensor intermittently. Switched phone to top pocket in my back pack with no improvement. At this stage, between the constant nagging about connection problems, the pain on the bridge of my left foot and the seemingly random metrics regarding edging angle, I switched it off. I'm afraid I didn't have the patience to use it a second day - I was skiing with company so the constant nagging regarding connection problems made conversation impossible. On the following day I pulled out my left boot liner and removed the Carv insole. It instantly resolved the pain in my left foot. By the way, I usually ski with my bottom two buckles very loose or even open, so I'm not cranking down the pressure at all. Bottom line is that I'm quite a technical guy, probably decent intermediate level with reasaonably good technique, I love carving, read the ski books, watch the videos and get plenty of instruction. I guess I fit right into the target audience for the kit. I wanted to love it! But it wasn't to be. I'm still within the 30 day return period so it's going back. I'm not totally writing it off though... I'll probably try it again some time in the future with replacement kit, different combination of boots, phone, liner, etc. But for the moment I'll settle for my money back.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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@alanmac, same here. Just started using it and 2 issues so far: constant warnings "bad connection to left (or right, it seems to vary) sensor", immediately followed by "connection restored".
However all the ski data is available afterwards so it seems to be recording OK. Some stuff online about needing a Bluetooth reset (ie restore factory settings of phone) which I'm not keen on!
Secondly I'll need to have my boots tweaked to keep it installed. Installing the sensors has taken a snug customised fit and made it painful. Not sure if it will resolve as the liners pack down a bit, so as the boots are barely skiable I think they'll need a tweak.
However, despite these concerns the feedback is amazing and great at getting me out of lazy cruising mode and already feeling some improvements in terms of earlier edge angle, better edge similarity & higher angles. So I think I'll keep using it...
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.
https://shorturl.at/qzFVW
https://shorturl.at/djBUY
https://shorturl.at/gosOQ
I've just measured the thickness of the Carv insole. They say 3mm... But as you can clearly see from my pictures the thickness varies considerably. At it's thinnest point it's 2.5mm. But at it's thickest point (the in-step) it's almost 5mm! I'd estimate maybe 50% of the insole is 3.5mm thick. Might account for my discomfort. So maybe they mean an 'average thickness' of 3mm which is quite misleading - bit like the average of being pregnant or not!
Not having much luck with the full refund either - they want to deduct €80 postage - 40 out and 40 back. Currently no one answering my query. Will report back... But starting to get 
Regarding the ski data... Yes it has recorded a myriad of ski data, but how much of it is real or means anything? When they can't even honestly report the thickness of the unit it really makes me question their credibility... Which is worrying considering we really have no way of verifying the data coming back from the unit and must take it on trust.The only information I've really been able to verify are the location of the runs I did. Getting constantly changing edge angles in Edging mode whilst standing stock still doesn't inspire much confidence!
As I said, maybe I got a dud unit. But having to factory reset my phone to maintain a Bluetooth connection is BS... I've got plenty of Bluetooth devices that work flawlessly.
Coming from an IT background and knowing they have nearly 400 million turns recorded from over 35,000 skiers and know exactly where you're standing and how fast your going it would be fairly straightforward to 'interpolate' (put kindly) a lot of the more esoteric and difficult to measure (and more useful ) data... Like edge angle.
I have 5 days left on my sub, so I might set up some plywood at 30 degrees and stand on it in Edging mode and see what it says!
Actually would be interesting to try them in a more controlled environment e.g. in a pair on in-line skates across a concrete skate park? But I have access to neither...
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Sorry to hear about your experience, especially the technical issues which makes the purchase pointless
I experienced the cramping but I was lucky! I bought the Carv, when on offer in November, and couldn't wait to use it. Followed the instructions about fitting down with tape etc and on day 1 in St Anton, as I put my boots on, unbuckled for the walk to the lift, I could feel a tightness above the toe and top area, but off I still went. Buckled up at the chair and straight away I could feel a cramp in both my feet. I adjusted the buckles to be a bit loose and still the same issue. I always spend the first day of my new season on groomed to get my ski legs going again, but this was horrible. I love my boots so much I have been scared to buy new ones. To me they are like comfy trainers. They stay cranked from the morning until the last run down (8pm not 4pm!!)
However on this first day, I was down by 3pm and went into a "good" ski shop and found a very helpful technician. I told him it was just 3mm and I couldn't understand why so much pain. After a long chat we agreed that we should not adjust the boots immediately as when I take the Carvs out, I will have wallow space. He was telling me that 1-2mm can impact the perfect fitting boot, significantly. He suggested I try "race tights" as he called them....and they were. They were like stockings. Here is the link to them: https://www.mico.it/gb/shop/63-647-calza-ski-extralight-weight-x-race.html#/3-size-l/36-colour-007
I was amazed...they worked. I worried about abrasion, cold feet, but had neither and more importantly zero cramping. Losing a mm or more from the sole and another from the top of the sock, made a complete difference. Day 2 was then better in terms of results hitting a high of 122. Then I found it harder as the terrain in StA never perfectly groomed. On day 4 I switched off the Carv. I found it pointless unless you were going to stay on perfect groomed and improve your carving. On day 6 I was in Flachau and Zauchensee (for the Ladies races) and the slopes there are nicely groomed, but I struggled to get over 118. I couldn't understand that these tame (in comparison to StA) slopes were not improving my carving technique. I felt I was trying to work the Carv and it wasn't working for me. So I hired an instructor for 2 hours (asked for one that had race experience - as opposed to a good looking one  ). We did drills, advanced drills, videos on the phone analysed on the chairs back up, and then we went for it. Turned on the Carv. Edge angles were up from 30s and 40s to mid/late 50s, and the overall went to 132. A few days later my trip took me to Schaldming (Night races) and here the snow wasn't as firm as a few days earlier in Flachau, but still got to 129 overall and edges staying in the 50s. When they dropped, I just remembered to do as the instructor said and not be ruled by improving the Carv score...it would actually improve the Carv score.
I didn't get any technical issues. I worried I would as my phone was not tested/approved on the Carv list, but no issues.
In my view, Carv is never going to replace an instructor that can take a video and show you what you need to adjust. My view is that Carv is just an aid to remind you to correct yourself and set some goals to achieve that correction.
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FAQ
