 Poster: A snowHead
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Frosty the Snowman, from what little experience I have of it, there are various ways of grading climbs - some according to the hardest move, others according to technical difficulty, exposure etc. It also depends on the type of climbing. Having said this, certainly in the case of mixed alpine routes, they are referred to as "in condition" and "out of condition". In the case of the latter this means that maybe snow conditions are bad making the climb much harder.
How do you find out about whether something is in or out of condition? That depends. If it's around Chamonix, you'll probably be able to find out at the Office du Haute Montagne or from a friendly guide. It it's more far flung, you won't fund out until you're on the route
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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People shouldn't get caught out on red and blacks as they are rated as hard and expert. Novice skiers do get caught on some blues, and that may be a case for splitting that grading. The reality is I think its highly unlikely that there will be any change. If someone is free skiing and can't get down a blue safely through snowplough or other techniques, they should really be skiing in lessons or at least with someone who can look after them for their own safety and enjoyment also
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| dan100 wrote: |
| People shouldn't get caught out on red and blacks as they are rated as hard and expert. Novice skiers do get caught on some blues, and that may be a case for splitting that grading. The reality is I think its highly unlikely that there will be any change. If someone is free skiing and can't get down a blue safely through snowplough or other techniques, they should really be skiing in lessons or at least with someone who can look after them for their own safety and enjoyment also |
From my experiences it's not about safety, it's about enjoyment. So there is a long period where you are (just about) capable but might not find struggling down something fun, and may find it actually negatively effects your progress/confidence.
However I agree - it's not going to happen 
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| dan100 wrote: |
| People shouldn't get caught out on red and blacks as they are rated as hard and expert. |
In Switzerland, reds are classed as "medium difficulty". The one Italian map I have classes reds as "medium" and the one Austrian map I have classes them as "mittel" which I believe means middle. This covers a huge range, from easy to difficult.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| PG wrote: |
| Don't some countries just have three colour gradings? I'm thinking of Austria - don't recall 'green' pistes there, but I might be wrong.. |
Yep - in fact in Europe isn't it only France that has Greens? Italy doesn't and Austria doesn't - don't know about Andorra? I have encountered a mixture in Switzerland, but cannot remember where 
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| agavin wrote: |
| PG wrote: |
| Don't some countries just have three colour gradings? I'm thinking of Austria - don't recall 'green' pistes there, but I might be wrong.. |
Yep - in fact in Europe isn't it only France that has Greens? Italy doesn't and Austria doesn't - don't know about Andorra? I have encountered a mixture in Switzerland, but cannot remember where |
Les Arcs seems to use blue, red and black only, although there are "tranquil zones" for areas used by beginners.
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| Quote: |
| Italy doesn't and Austria doesn't |
I'm sure they'll be falling over themselves to introduce a few more shades of the rainbow to their grading system once they realise a snowHeads boycott is imminent 
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Les Arcs seems to use blue, red and black only, although there are "tranquil zones" for areas used by beginners. |
Don't forget the 'Piste Mauve' !!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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agavin, all the pistes in Andorra are basically green. 
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Do any of them change the grading of a piste? For example, Red to black, or single diamond to double diamond? |
Yes! (see previous note about blue runs being reclassified as blacks on the hill (but not on the print out - it will only tell you the conditions)
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
There are different systems? You mean that some resorts don't use colours and/or symbols to grade their pistes? What do they use? Actual slope angles? The average height of the bumps? I'm intrigued... |
No, I mean some resorts don't use the 3 or 4 colour system which has been mentioned frequently in this thread, but actually have 5 or more different grades (as I mentioned earlier)
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Say a resort was to offer free season passes to locals who would give 1 day a week to free guiding, so a tourist arrives in town, and can join in a half day guided tour of the slopes, whether it be for beginners, intermediates, advanced, experts... and that these guides would take people in small groups to show them the resort. |
... sounds rather like the SCGB repping scheme to me
As to your point about "If the easiest run in a resort is a steep mogul field, then it will be green" this is manifestly tosh. Looking at the MonteRosa piste map, Gressoney contains NO (greens or) blues, two blacks and the rest are reds. Champoluc contains only two blues, the rest all being reds.
While I don't buy PG's terridations about extra costs for a load of extra classification, I'm really not sure how useful it can really be, due to variations in conditions. Some resorts already seem to have extra learners piste designation (piste mauve) - and that could be extended, although nursery slopes are already fairly obvious. There could also usefully be something on the piste map about character of the run (steep and narrow, seriously bumpy, prone to icing etc) but that should be enough. Actually the Chamonix piste maps already do something like that. E.g. "Piste des Nants - Trail back down to Chamonix, mainly through the trees and reserved for good skiers: 4500m long, 740m vertical" (although they could add a bit more about specific difficulties). I would however certainly agree there should be a bit more standardisation between resorts - so someone coping with blues in Alpe d'Huez would know what to expect when looking at blues in Chamonix or Les Deux Alpes.
An expanding on points made by JT and myself earlier: I think getting passably competent at sideslipping and traversing should be an integral part of every first week course. Once you can do this you can get out of pretty much any tricky situation you are reasonably liable to land yourself in.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Thu 30-03-06 14:58; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| agavin wrote: |
| Yep - in fact in Europe isn't it only France that has Greens? Italy doesn't and Austria doesn't - don't know about Andorra? I have encountered a mixture in Switzerland, but cannot remember where |
Better not tell the guys at Skipass - they think everyone has 4 colours - you'll cause a national strike!
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One of the most influential Austrian political parties would definitely not agree to having their no. 1 national sport infiltrated by Greens. That's a definite non-starter.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Do any of them change the grading of a piste? For example, Red to black, or single diamond to double diamond? |
Yes! (see previous note about blue runs being reclassified as blacks on the hill (but not on the print out - it will only tell you the conditions) |
Why was that piste regraded? Seems to be a recipe for confusion to me, with the piste map saying one grade but the piste markers saying two grades more severe. I would have thought that an indicator board at the top of the piste, or the bottom of the lift, saying "Caution: icy piste" would have been more straightforward.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Why do bald men fight over combs?
They should fight over ski hats
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Why don't ski stations have platforms and buffers?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
JT, Perhaps. There are however a few climbers on this site can they tell us how different climbs are rated. Do they have 4 colours. A bit of an over dramatic comparison I know, but I'm sure you can see where I am going
and ise replied:
I very, very much doubt a lot of people are going to like the answer very much
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Fraid its true, used to do a bit of rock climbing in my youth and the grades were Diff (Dificult) Vdiff (very Dificult) S (severe), HS (hard severe) HVS (Hard very severe) E1-8 perhaps higher (Extreme with the larger the number the more extreme it was) plus for the harder grades there would be a technical grade like 4a, 5b 6a etc. The techincal grade gives and idea of the hardest technical move on the route the HVS etc an overall view of the dificulty of the route. It takes into account things like protection and length, so a short hard route might have a lower grade than a long easy route particularly if the protection on the long route was so p1ss poor that if you made a mistake you would fall to your death.
Then of course routes on limestone are low in their grade compared to routes on gritstone (or was that the other way round  ) and stuff lead by the hard men of the 50s in hobnails boots are much harder than modern routes of the same grade .
By the way I'm making the latter up  , but grading of routes is subjective and some areas are known to be hard in their grade and some easy and of course it will depend on conditions, whether you like gritstone hate sandstone or think limestone is the bees knees. Plus popular routes in lower grades (ie easy stuff I can do) might be polished to hell so much harder than the grade would lead you to beleive.
So in fact its not much different to grading ski runs
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 30-03-06 15:53; edited 1 time in total
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Do any of them change the grading of a piste? For example, Red to black, or single diamond to double diamond? |
Yes! (see previous note about blue runs being reclassified as blacks on the hill (but not on the print out - it will only tell you the conditions) |
Why was that piste regraded? Seems to be a recipe for confusion to me, with the piste map saying one grade but the piste markers saying two grades more severe. I would have thought that an indicator board at the top of the piste, or the bottom of the lift, saying "Caution: icy piste" would have been more straightforward. |
Sorry if you find it confusing, but if a blue run, due to a large snowfall, is now regarded as considerably more difficult than a pisted blue run beside it, surely it is better to re-grade it at the top, and let people make the decision there on whether to go onto it or not, given that today it is skiing like a different run to yesterday.
Personally, I think that's better than saying nothing and having ski patrol spending the day pulling beginners off the mountain in blood wagons.
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| ise wrote: |
| But, climbers expect their environment to come without the cotton-wool that some skiers seem to demand. |
Yes, particularly the ones who want the slopes cotton-wooled from anyone who may not be as good/aggressive a skier as they are, or who don't want to ski near anyone else.
| ise wrote: |
| If ski runs were graded like climbs then the only difference would be that blacks would be graded in ways to present technical demands and seriousness of the line. |
So, maybe some blacks would be graded as double blacks, and some as double black chutes/couloirs, etc?
That IS how some places grade their runs, or even whole areas of the mountain. (and mark similar warnings about the requirements for self arrest skills, etc on the piste maps)
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If I arrest myself does this involve the usual "Anything you say ..." or should I just keep my trap shut?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| The Abominable snowHead wrote: |
| should I just keep my trap shut? |
Sir, I believe the answer to that is a resounding YES.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 30-03-06 16:02; edited 1 time in total
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| jt wrote: |
| how different climbs are rated. Do they have 4 colours. A bit of an over dramatic comparison I know, but I'm sure you can see where I am going |
There are different systems in operation for rock climbing, but the one key similarity, is that they all have far more than just 3, 4 or 5 grades. Being a 'slightly' more dangerous sport than skiing, they always come with the caution to err on the safe side as the gradings still have a fair element of subjectivity in them (just like skiing gradings!).
However, it is also true, that because there is more variation, there is less chance of finding something that is significantly harder unless you try jumping ahead too many grades.
I think that is all that is missing from piste gradings - is a little more granularity to 'ease' safe and confident progression.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| Quote: |
Frosty the Snowman wrote:
JT, Perhaps. There are however a few climbers on this site can they tell us how different climbs are rated. Do they have 4 colours. A bit of an over dramatic comparison I know, but I'm sure you can see where I am going
and ise replied:
I very, very much doubt a lot of people are going to like the answer very much
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Fraid its true, used to do a bit of rock climbing in my youth and the grades were Diff (Dificult) Vdiff (very Dificult) S (severe), HS (hard severe) HVS (Hard very severe) E1-8 perhaps higher (Extreme with the larger the number the more extreme it was) plus for the harder grades there would be a technical grade like 4a, 5b 6a etc. |
well, yes, but no In fact, you've missed easy, moderate, hard very difficult, mild severe and very severe that I can think of right now. Of which only very severe (VS) is really used. Technical grades would be bench marked at around 4a for a severe with technical grades below 4a not used.
The parallel being that a sub-division of easy routes is pointless, it's like grading staircases for difficulty
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| Plus popular routes in lower grades (ie easy stuff I can do) might be polished to hell so much harder than the grade would lead you to beleive. |
now that sounds like some of the earlier posts saying what a handful some blues can be some classic routes get harder though, didn't "comes the dervish", an all time classic, get upgraded to E3 5C as bits fell off? I'm sure it wasn't that that hard once
| Dave Horsley wrote: |
| So in fact its not much different to grading ski runs |
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Perhaps you should take this discussion to IfYouClimb.com before it gets closed down, and let those of us who want to talk about snow sports discuss it here...
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| agavin wrote: |
| jt wrote: |
| how different climbs are rated. Do they have 4 colours. A bit of an over dramatic comparison I know, but I'm sure you can see where I am going |
There are different systems in operation for rock climbing, but the one key similarity, is that they all have far more than just 3, 4 or 5 grades. Being a 'slightly' more dangerous sport than skiing, they always come with the caution to err on the safe side as the gradings still have a fair element of subjectivity in them (just like skiing gradings!).
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You're missing the point, climbing grades cover every route, grades of ski run cover recreational (generally) prepared slopes not off piste for example. There should be far fewer ski grades, which they are.
There aren't (sticking to UK rock) many real operational grades, v' diff, severe, very severe, hard very severe and extreme would be all. Extreme is open ended as black would be if it were used to grade off piste.
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You know it makes sense.
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Why are so many climbers called Ivy?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| Do any of them change the grading of a piste? For example, Red to black, or single diamond to double diamond? |
Yes! (see previous note about blue runs being reclassified as blacks on the hill (but not on the print out - it will only tell you the conditions)
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
There are different systems? You mean that some resorts don't use colours and/or symbols to grade their pistes? What do they use? Actual slope angles? The average height of the bumps? I'm intrigued... |
No, I mean some resorts don't use the 3 or 4 colour system which has been mentioned frequently in this thread, but actually have 5 or more different grades (as I mentioned earlier) |
Sorry, I should have included a link to this post...
http://www.snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=293653
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| Personally, I think that's better than saying nothing and having ski patrol spending the day pulling beginners off the mountain in blood wagons. |
I'm not advocating doing nothing, I'm suggesting that it would be better to give warnings of difficult snow conditions rather than mess around with the official grade of the piste.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Yes, those overhead gantries on motorway pistes are quite effective.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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rob@rar.org.uk, but if you have a situation of a blue run, which in deep snow becomes very difficult, then what is wrong with explaining that both by warning of the difficult snow, and explaining it in a way that a skier can understand - i.e. by giving the slope a different grade?
If a beginner, or someone not used to 1m of fresh powder, was to just go up and see that there was a warning of deep snow, but thought - it's a blue run, I can do this, then discovers that it's way more difficult than that, then you have a major problem. And in one case I am thinking of, there isn't an option of backing out once you're on the run (unless you turn off onto the runs marked as double black chutes).
Isn't it better to give the skier the warning, and a way of understanding what that warning means?
Now perhaps, to protect the "official grading of the piste", it would be better to post a detailled explanation of what is meant by the warning sign, but just leave the piste wide open.
Personally, I prefer that they would rope off most of the entrance to the piste, so that you go through a gate, and have a clear sign that shows the regrading, and why.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The Abominable snowHead, WTFH had some very sensible advice for you. It would be helpful if you could take your frustration somewhere else.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Maybe we could put in protection to black runs, that way if you fell over you wouldn't slide all the way to the bottom?
Once you get comfortable you get to ski roped to one of your buddies and if you're really mad you could "free" ski? i.e. no ropes or protection AT ALL!!
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Wear The Fox Hat, it's not the warning/advice I have a problem with, it's changing what should be (in my opinion) a reasonably fixed reference point, such as the broad classification of a piste. Snow conditions are infinitely variable, and I don't think it is sensible to have frequent re-classifications of piste grades. What I think is preferable is to enable all skiers to develop a better understanding of snow conditions and how they affected, for example, blue pistes. Changing blue pistes to black pistes, would just confuse that.
Also, what would people brag about down the pub if blue pistes turned to black, and back again?
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Alternatively one could have litmus pistes which change colour according to the level of snow acidity
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I think this discussion has now gone beyond skiers looking down a piste and thinking "is this for me" and heading towards been told what you can and cannot do.
I like the present system, I always treat it as a guide only. I expect Mother Nature to change things on the mountain hourly even something such as flat light can make a run harder.
For me Skiing is about been in the “wild” and enjoying it’s challenges.
I don’t think anyone should ski a slope because it’s a red(for example) on the piste map and not actually look at it first to decide if its do able or not.
That’s like driving your car 70mph in think fog because it’s the speed limit. Some do but it’s not advised.
People should take account for their own actions.
Last edited by You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net. on Thu 30-03-06 17:02; edited 1 time in total
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agavin,
No problem, but I didn't write what you are quoting me as writing, FrostyTS did..!!
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FAQ
