@rob@rar, In fact - I can't remember if it was in the handbook, but I certainly found it on the manufacturer's website >mine's an Astra GTC< , so if it's not in the handbook, it's certainly worth doing some googling to confirm...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@DB, This question came up again recently, but I struggled to prove what I had previously been told. I.e. that there was a difference between snow tyres and winter tyres. Apart from studded tyres I couldn’t find any reference to a distinction between the two. Can you? I’ve had a look at several tyre manufacturers product ranges and they don’t differentiate.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@DB, This question came up again recently, but I struggled to prove what I had previously been told. I.e. that there was a difference between snow tyres and winter tyres. Apart from studded tyres I couldn’t find any reference to a distinction between the two. Can you? I’ve had a look at several tyre manufacturers product ranges and they don’t differentiate.
Well, snow, winter or nordic tyres - there is a difference and as an easy point of reference, look at speed ratings. Lower speed ratings = “nordic” winter tyre. In nokian’ case, look at “R” rated models:
https://www.nokiantyres.com/tyres/passenger-car/winter-tyres/
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
mooney058 wrote:
Well, snow, winter or nordic tyres - there is a difference and as an easy point of reference, look at speed ratings. Lower speed ratings = “nordic” winter tyre. In nokian’ case, look at “R” rated models:
https://www.nokiantyres.com/tyres/passenger-car/winter-tyres/
Sorry, I’m not convinced. ‘Nordic tyres’ just seeem to be a catch phrase used by Nokian. Nobody else seems to use it and Nokian don’t make any mention of ‘snow’ tyres either. If there really was a difference, then surely at least one manufacturer would mention it. To imply that the speed rating is some sort of secret code for snow vs winter tyres seems a little obscure.
Most tyre manufacturers have at least one model in their range which get described as 'Nordic' and are designed specifically for environments where you're driving on snow almost permanently throughout the winter and the temperatures are consistently sub-zero. As well as a compound mix that basically expects to run below 0°C most of the time, these generally (but not always) have treads that are also designed to carry small studs if necessary as well.
There's no official criteria/certification that I'm aware of for 'Nordic' in the same way that there is for the 'Mountain and Snowflake' designation. So manufacturers are left to their own devices when describing the tyres for 'Nordic' environments, which can lead to some confusion.
On many car owners forums, especially international ones, you often find that the Nordic, Canadian and northern/mountain US posters cause a lot of confusion by referring to brands the rest of us have never heard of: I'm thinking of Nokian Hakkapeliitta and Pirelli Ice Zero as examples that your local KwikFit certainly won't stock and shouldn't recommend to a UK owner.
Manufacturers never like to use the term 'snow tires' because it's misleading, and implies that winter tyres are only of any use if it's snowing, which is not true and a common misconception in markets like the UK and Netherlands. But they do make a distinction between the different models of tyre insofar as they can, but not necessarily with consistency. The distinction between summer and winters is generally meaningful and consistent. The problem comes with 'all seasons' and 'Nordic' because there's no official definition/certification for these. There is a real difference between summers, winters, Nordics and all-seasons but the official standards only recognise summers and winters.
This is all further complicated by the fact that all Nordics are winters, but only some all-seasons are winters. And that a 'mountain and snowflake' all-season is never as good a winter as a winter, or summer as a summer, although it's a better summer than a winter and better winter than a summer.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@foxtrotzulu, what @LaForet, said.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Gordyjh wrote:
@LaForet, How did we all survive driving out to Austria or Switzerland in rwd BMWs in the 70s and 80s before winter tyres were a gleam in a marketing man's eye?
Tyres in the 70s had a more winter appropriate tread pattern, more like all seasons, the tyres on mum's car just have a series of ribs running around and I woulguess have no chance of grip on snow/ ice.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
altis wrote:
I bet you'll easily be able to fit chains on the narrowest tyres because of all the space involved in accommodating the wider tyres. Not only that, the narrower winters be cheaper and have more grip in deep snow than wider ones. No brainer really.
Definitely true on thinnish snow and slush where the narrow tyre can get through to the tarmac but we had a Transit on narrowish winter tyres and an S-max on wider all seasons, on 4-5" of compacted wet snow, the lighter S-max on wide tyres just "floated " over the surface, the heavier Transit sank in and got stuck.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Thank you @LaForet for your very comprehensive guide and informative contributions to this discussion. I have found them very interesting and extremely useful.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Just ordered Hakkapeliita's, looking forward to trying them out, could've done with them this morning......
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
foxtrotzulu wrote:
mooney058 wrote:
Well, snow, winter or nordic tyres - there is a difference and as an easy point of reference, look at speed ratings. Lower speed ratings = “nordic” winter tyre. In nokian’ case, look at “R” rated models:
https://www.nokiantyres.com/tyres/passenger-car/winter-tyres/
Sorry, I’m not convinced. ‘Nordic tyres’ just seeem to be a catch phrase used by Nokian. Nobody else seems to use it and Nokian don’t make any mention of ‘snow’ tyres either. If there really was a difference, then surely at least one manufacturer would mention it. To imply that the speed rating is some sort of secret code for snow vs winter tyres seems a little obscure.
Geolocation, branding are the problems as for different markets various producers want you to see what they think would work best for you. On Michelin FR website you will not find Michelin X Ice model, which Michelin produce for a more nordic conditions.
Bridgestone bought some years ago a Swedish winter tyre specialist Gyslaved (superb winter tyres) but not sure under which name Bridgestone are selling Gyslaved products. Producers try to simplify choice for consumers, but different tyres for different climates does exist (and I am not talking here F1 tolerances). Having lived in many different climates I know what producers offer to locals, even though if the mighty google would not be very helpful with results on the first page.
The reason I mentioned lower speed ratings is because Nordic type winter tyres are made of a softer rubber compounds that wear off faster at speeds and are meant as such for harsher wintery conditions.
EDIT: you can also google Goodyear Ultragrip Ice
EDIT2: or even Continental ContiViking
EIDT3: of Pirelly ICE Zero
It is not my aim to convince you. I am a petrolhead and know about cars and tyres since I was little (my dad was a truck and bus driver all his life, spend many hours repairing our old cars together).
Last edited by And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports. on Thu 4-01-18 11:26; edited 3 times in total
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
And that a 'mountain and snowflake' all-season is never as good a winter as a winter, or summer as a summer, although it's a better summer than a winter and better winter than a summer.
While I agree, I also think they are the best compromise for UK drivers who make one trip a year to the Alps (with chains in boot of course!). I run Michelin Cross-Climate on my car and they were fab in recent UK snow, recommended them to my boss who promptly purchased and he was able to get out his road - the only person who could.
I wouldn't recommend them for sporty cars/drivers but for most people they will meet all needs
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
As this thread has morphed from chains to 'which winter tyre' (as most threads eventually do ) - can I dare to ask what people do about the spare tyre, would one get a 5th winter tyre and what is best strategy for cars (like mine) that do not come with a spare at all?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@Boris. This is a tricky decision. For my part, I have Michelin all-seasons on my Peugeot 206 which we use as a local commute/runabout because, as you say, they do the job. But I have separate summers and winters including wheels for our main car, because it's a performance model. That winters are useful when we drive down to the Alps every winter is icing on the cake.
I'd say that for anyone with a performance car there's a completely separate and compelling argument for having winter tyres and wheels in the UK - even where I live, on the South Coast. Narrower winter wheels on a performance car will give you a lot of extra traction in heavy rain and standing water and on cold tarmac. I have seen many posts on forums from owners of performance models who complain their traction control is lighting up like a Christmas Tree in winter, but can't be convinced that they'd benefit from winter tyres.
But for me, it's exactly that trip down to the Alps that makes getting winters worthwhile, irrespective of what type of car you drive. After all, your summers last proportionally longer as a result, so the cost is only that of the swap-over twice a year. And my take is that if you can afford to go skiing every winter, then you can afford the cost of the swap-over.
@ozboy I have a 5th spare winter tyre which I take with me. I just pack stuff in the inside of the tyre which sits flat in the boot, so it doesn't take up much space. I have a spare winter tyre because I am a Worst Case Scenario Planning person (you may have inferred this already!) and I have runflats. And I'd like to keep the same tyre brand on a replacement so to avoid delays, I take a tyre with me. I'll use it when I next replace my winters and get a new spare. I suspect that most people wouldn't bother but as I plan to keep my main car for some time and certainly across another tyre change, then this works for me.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Thu 4-01-18 12:43; edited 2 times in total
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Ozboy wrote:
As this thread has morphed from chains to 'which winter tyre' (as most threads eventually do ) - can I dare to ask what people do about the spare tyre, would one get a 5th winter tyre and what is best strategy for cars (like mine) that do not come with a spare at all?
Without wishing to speak for the entire population I don't think people bother with the spare. You can limp home to a garage with three good wheels/tyres.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Earlier today drove down from Montalbert in around 4 or 5 inches of fresh snow and more still falling, some stretches had seen snowploughs, some hadn't, a nice steady 20 to 35kph all the way to Moutier the snow socks were excellent. The bare tarmac through the kilometer long Saix tunnel didn't affect them at all.
(The car was a rental Citroen D5 with a snowflake setting on the Auto shift)
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@boredsurfin, did the hire car come complete with the socks, or did you purchase them?
As this thread has morphed from chains to 'which winter tyre' (as most threads eventually do ) - can I dare to ask what people do about the spare tyre, would one get a 5th winter tyre and what is best strategy for cars (like mine) that do not come with a spare at all?
Run flat tyres, no need for a spare (neither for summers nor for winters)
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@mooney058, I bow to your superior knowledge on this one. I suspect my 'disbelief' was more a question of semantics. As originally expressed, it sounded as though there were three distinct types of cold weather tyres (winters, snow and nordics). From your explanation, and my research, I now understand it a little differently. i.e. manufacturers produce a range of cold-weather tyres that are suitable for slightly different conditions. They don't label or perhaps even think of them as 'snow' or 'nordic', but they do produce slightly different tyres for different markets. Have I got that about right?
@rob@rar, Carrefour at Chambery only €45.00 (well it might not have snowed )
Have rented Swiss side for next trip later this month ....
Will take socks in cabin bags, made smaller with re-usable cable ties
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Thu 4-01-18 15:22; edited 2 times in total
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
mooney058 wrote:
Run flat tyres, no need for a spare (neither for summers nor for winters)
Runflats are designed to run for up to 50 Kms deflated, but this is variable according to how bad the damage is. So yes, they get you off the Autoroute and to a nearby tyre fitter. But ..
Winters tend to be produced in the summer on a limited run at the factory, as stock for the autumn change-over and a small reserve for winter replacements. So by the New Year, stocks are running low for any particular model. My 5th spare was pretty much the last one available (in my specific size and brand/model) in the South-East when I got it in late January last year.
What I wanted to avoid was having trouble in the UK getting an exact replacement later in the Winter if anything happened. More importantly, if I was en route in France, and not yet in an Alpine area, I didn't want to be hanging-around at a tyre place for a couple of days, waiting for delivery of a replacement. Odds are my exact size and model might not even be available, and even if I was OK with a different model of tyre, I might still have to wait for my size.
But if I was changing the car in the way I used to (every 3 years) then I probably wouldn't bother with the spare.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Thu 4-01-18 15:15; edited 3 times in total
After all it is free
After all it is free
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@mooney058, I bow to your superior knowledge on this one. I suspect my 'disbelief' was more a question of semantics. As originally expressed, it sounded as though there were three distinct types of cold weather tyres (winters, snow and nordics). From your explanation, and my research, I now understand it a little differently. i.e. manufacturers produce a range of cold-weather tyres that are suitable for slightly different conditions. They don't label or perhaps even think of them as 'snow' or 'nordic', but they do produce slightly different tyres for different markets. Have I got that about right?
10 out of 10
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
LaForet wrote:
mooney058 wrote:
Run flat tyres, no need for a spare (neither for summers nor for winters)
Runflats are designed to run for up to 50 Kms deflated, but this is variable according to how bad the damage is. So yes, they get you off the Autoroute and to a nearby tyre fitter. But ..
Winters tend to be produced in the summer on a limited run at the factory, as stock for the autumn change-over and a small reserve for winter replacements. So by the New Year, stocks are running low for any particular model. My 5th spare was pretty much the last one available (in my specific size and brand/model) in the South-East when I got it in late January last year.
What I wanted to avoid was having trouble in the UK getting an exact replacement later in the Winter if anything happened. More importantly, if I was en route in France, and not yet in an Alpine area, I didn't want to be hanging-around at a tyre place waiting for delivery of a replacement. Odds are my exact size and model might not even be available, and even if I was OK with a different model of tyre, I might still have to wait for my size. But if I was changing the car in the way I used to (every 3 years) then I probably wouldn't bother.
Internet is OK and in my case BMW dealer would not be further than 100 km away in most situations ... punctures are most likely around urban areas, not on a major road. The only spares I have in my car are fuses and some light bulbs
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Probably won't help much, but I drove a 2CV around the Alps through winter season 1996/97 without needing chains at all. Did have a couple of skids (one into a bus and one into a verge), but bear in mind I was out there 20 weeks, driving almost every day.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
Layne wrote:
foxtrotzulu wrote:
@DB, This question came up again recently, but I struggled to prove what I had previously been told. I.e. that there was a difference between snow tyres and winter tyres. Apart from studded tyres I couldn’t find any reference to a distinction between the two. Can you? I’ve had a look at several tyre manufacturers product ranges and they don’t differentiate.
They do, they are the nordic type. This was explained to me by an Austrian tyre fitter the first time I had winter tyres fitted almost 20 years ago when I asked for snow tyres instead of winter tyres.
Some people still use these tyres (e.g snow clearing vehicles, Taxi drivers in high elevation resorts - as a third set of wheels/tyres etc). Above freezing on a tarmac road they won't last long though.
Winter rally cars also use them ...
What the Americans used to call snow tyres are like our M&S with an agressive tread pattern they are a harder not a softer compound to winter tyres (unlike the nordic). Even now the Americans swap the terminology of winter tyres and snow tyres.
... another item commonly called "snow tyre" (Schneereifen) offers terrible grip on both snow and ice but they are an absolute blast.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
DB wrote:
They do, they are the nordic type
Surely, you've just contradicted yourself? If they are "nordic" tyres how can they be "snow" tyres? Anyway as we've ascertained there are winter tyres with variations that make them suitable for nordic, canadian, north american, snowy environments, whatever term you may feel happy to use but they are essentially winter tyres i.e., designed to be used in the winter.
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Layne wrote:
DB wrote:
They do, they are the nordic type
Surely, you've just contradicted yourself? If they are "nordic" tyres how can they be "snow" tyres? Anyway as we've ascertained there are winter tyres with variations that make them suitable for nordic, canadian, north american, snowy environments, whatever term you may feel happy to use but they are essentially winter tyres i.e., designed to be used in the winter.
Some people call them "nordic" others call them "snow" or "snow & ice" tyres it's just a terminology thing, polyonymous.
Winter tyres are designed for a wider range of conditions including wet roads and warmer temps (up to 7 deg C), these don't normally have studs
"Snow" or "Snow & Ice" tyres are of a softer compund being specifically designed for sub zero temps and snow / ice surfaces (not tarmac), these often have studs.
For the UK tourist who is travelling to the alps it's "winter" tyres that they should opt for seeing as they will also be driving on tarmac for a considerable amount of time.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
Got stuck behind the same numpty German van as Tuesday. This time he had brand new snow socks and didn't even make it to the bottom of the first 10% gradient. Conditions were really difficult with 30cm of new snow having fallen then turning to rain. I had already elected to fit snow chains to my spiked tyres (2wd) as I know they don't work well enough in these conditions. When I told the crowd of locals it was the second time this week I thought they were going to lynch him.
Eventually he was pulled out of the way by a local farmer, this left the Crystal reps in their van in front of me, off we went leaving a large gap. As we started climbing the reps van was clearly still not coping well and eventually snapped a chain just before our junction. Road blocked both ways for another half an hour, helped them get out of the way and carried on but traction was still very difficult with slush on top of ice.
Have to go to the village for ski school prize giving tonight so I have borrowed a 4x4 with spikes!
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
I have narrowed down my choice of winter tyre and windering if anyone here has experience with the Kleber Krisalp HP3 tyres?
Looking at tyre comparison tests and they seem to be ones with the highest ranking available in my uncommon tyre size 245/45/18. The are around £140 a piece.
Car is a e-class AWD estate and we will be driving to Chatel from London a few times a season using the route over the Jura mountains and then going up the Pas du Morgins followed by a 500m uphill resort road (c. 8%) to the apartment. Will also be driving around the resort to the various life Car parks.
Decided to get the Konig Thule CU09 (104) 9mm easy fit chains which I’ve found for £175 delivered. Interestingly the car’s user manual suggests I check with Mercedes service centre to see if fitting chains is possible for my tyre size (they don’t provide a list!) - but after having made a few calls I have concluded they have no idea and don’t know where to get the info (or can’t be arsed). I’ve have a good look under the car and felt around the rear tyres as there seems to be ample clearance.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
Further to my earlier comment about Avis not being able to supply my pre-booked chains because they had run out...
Avis Geneva Airport now tell me that if I give them the chains I had to buy then they will refund me the 83.50 EUR cost of them. Update on Monday!
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@DB, thanks for the tip - the comparison table your attached is great and I don't even read German! I googled the Dunlops and they are available in my size and spec for £175 each fitted - its a slight premium but they are a long term purchase.
[/quote] Decided to get the Konig Thule CU09 (104) 9mm easy fit chains which I’ve found for £175 delivered. Interestingly the car’s user manual suggests I check with Mercedes service centre to see if fitting chains is possible for my tyre size (they don’t provide a list!) - but after having made a few calls I have concluded they have no idea and don’t know where to get the info (or can’t be arsed). I’ve have a good look under the car and felt around the rear tyres as there seems to be ample clearance.[/quote]
Bought some of these just before Xmas from the Roofbox Co. Two points
1) they cost about £140
2) they were unbelievably easy to put on (drove to Alps just after Xmas). I've spent the last 5 years using (struggling with) Weissenfel s klack and go s. A good chain but a bit of of bug to get on. The cu9 s took about 2 mins per wheel. And I'm a complete numpty when it comes to anything mechanical. There are some excellent you tube videos re fitting.
Last edited by You need to Login to know who's really who. on Sun 7-01-18 13:39; edited 2 times in total
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@Ozboy, The AMG version of your E Class is supplied with 275/35/19 rears and 350e SE has 275/40/18 rears as standard so I doubt clearance will be a problem with your 245s. E&OE etc etc
PS It looks like your current wheels are an optional fit. The standard is 225/55/17. (All according to the Merc specs on their website)
@jonty, its reassuring you find them easy to use. My only experience with chains is struggling to install the basic tangled ones that come with rental cars.
The cu09 chains get dearer as the size increases - roofbox.co.uk sells the 104 model/size for £215. Which size did you get?
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@jtr, yes that’s right I opted for the 18” option. Steered away from the AMG trim version as winter tyres are rare and expensive in that size. Also ride quality my not so good IMO.
After all it is free
After all it is free
@Ozboy, I would say good call on not getting the AMG version because that is what I did I got a run-out version of the previous version in early 2016 and the SE was a more pleasant driving experience, came with 225/50/17 tyres and was pretty well loaded as well as relatively inexpensive because they didn’t want them hanging around with the new model due for release
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
@jtr, coincidently the car I replaced was a 2013 e250 AMG. I live in London and found the ride very harsh going over humps etc and the engine harsh in stop/go - but still very good for cruising and long trips. The new one is significantly better in all areas and AWD as a bonus.
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
) - can I dare to ask what people do about the spare tyre, would one get a 5th winter tyre and what is best strategy for cars (like mine) that do not come with a spare at all?
only €45.00 (well it 
)
I got a run-out version of the previous version in early 2016 and the SE was a more pleasant driving experience, came with 225/50/17 tyres and was pretty well loaded as well as 