 Poster: A snowHead
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@davidof, I'm sure it occurs but I've never seen that personally. some things better, some things worse, some things just different. Different cultures, attitudes, perspectives. Mainly people are just people.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@gixxerniknik, Not good. Suggest getting them checked out otherwise risk making them worse.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@gixxerniknik, until you start to ski bumps competitively, the better you get the less stress you put on your knees.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@under a new name, sounds like I need to ski more to get better then, good job my knees have a sense of humour!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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British knees are well known for being a bit wobbly. But at least we can compensate with a stiff upper lip.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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So, so far we have a couple of reports of wide skis on hard snow feeling harder on knees (Arno, think he has said has dodgy knees anyway in another thread at some point?!), and Jimmer (ski instructor, no idea what his knees are like), oh and Mistress Panda...
Then Perty, Zero G, HoneyBunny saying their wider skis actually feel easier on their knees than their slimmer ones when on hard snow.
Markymark and maybe some others (it's not the easiest thread to pick out the relevant posts!) saying no difference either way…
And the knee surgeon who has fat skis (but I don't know if he uses them on hard snow) saying:
| Jonathan Bell wrote: |
Knee pain that occurs with activity is most likely from the patella ( kneecap) that is especially likely to be the case if it relates to change of foot wear/surface or in this case skis.
The causes of patella pain are multifactorial and most people who get it have a number of factors that are provoking it. Think of it as a shopping basket containing your risk factors, if it gets too full you get pain. Usually the majority of those factors were present immediately before the onset of pain but were not quite enough to trigger the pain. It is then common for the sufferer to add something else into the basket of risk factors. Eg they start running or make a big step up in their weights program. Equipment can be one of the factors that makes the "shopping basket " too full. Commonly this is a runners changing their shoes but altering a ski/ski boot can have the same effect.
Obviously going back to the old ski shape may be enough to allow the pain to settle but it may be worth looking at the other risk factors in the shopping basket. Here are a few worth considering:
-some muscle groups are too tight ( classically quads/ calf/hamstring)
-some muscles not working hard enough ( quads not strong enough)
-poor trunk control
-poor pelvic control with bad pelvic and low back posture
-poor control of the hip and knee.
The two commonest in skiers is lack of strength in the quads and poor rotational control of the hip and knee. For the purpose of the fat/narrow ski debate the former is the most relevant. If you allow the hip to turn in it tends to make the knee fall into a valgus (knock kneed) position. This "weak knee" position puts the knee at huge risk in a skier of MCL rupture/MCL pain and most frequently patella pain. Altering the point of contact with the floor ( snow) may be enough to over fill the basket so you get pain. If you deal with some of the other variables eg get stronger, stretch etc then then you may be able to better tolerate fat skis!
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@miranda, when I get it, my knee pain is patella pain so Dr JB's summary rings true for me. Hard to say whether it is really caused by wide skis on hard snow or just skiing generally. Anyway, I do a bit more touring now and arm myself with ibuprofen, so it is manageable
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@miranda, A good summary of the on-topic content of the thread 😀.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I started having knee pain before Christmas and took it fairly easy for my 3 weeks in January. My wider skis were probably worse for it but I think it was more down to the weight.
Diagnosis from my physio is that my knees are fine but my quads and calves are very tight. Exacerbated by cycling, skiing and lack of stretching. Kind of pleased my knees aren't knackered and that earlier posts have confirmed this as as possible cause. Lots of stretches and massage now before my longer trip 
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@ rob@rar 
(Note to self, musn't forget the Stiff Upper Lip next time I go skiing!)
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You know it makes sense.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| British knees are well known for being a bit wobbly. But at least we can compensate with a stiff upper lip. |
I find this remark somewhat xenophobic and not very accurate.
I may lack a quiver in my ski collection but by god I manage it in my upper lip.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@T Bar, Rule 5, sir, Rule 5!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@T Bar, that's the Scottish variation, usually covered up by a tangle of ginger facial hair fit for highland cattle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
Diagnosis from my physio is that my knees are fine but my quads and calves are very tight. Exacerbated by cycling, skiing and lack of stretching. Kind of pleased my knees aren't knackered and that earlier posts have confirmed this as as possible cause. Lots of stretches and massage now before my longer trip
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I think you get the most from stretching doing it after exercise, yoga or some form of lazy stretching is good for the in between exercise days
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| laundryman wrote: |
| @T Bar, that's the Scottish variation, usually covered up by a tangle of ginger facial hair fit for highland cattle. |
The upper lip has a tangle of hair, now very grey though,it still quivers.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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back on topic...
http://unofficialnetworks.com/2015/02/study-finds-that-fat-skis-are-killing-your-knees
A study out of Montana State University finds that fat skis are really bad for your knees. John Seifert, an associate professor of health and human development and avid skier at Montana State University, has found that skiing hard-packed snow on a ski wider than 80 mm underfoot puts an undue amount of stress on knee and ankle joints.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@kitenski,
I think that article is essentially derived from the same study as the first post.
Basically stating that if you stick sensors on the muscles and joints there is evidence of some extra strain.
From the article it looks like evidence is lacking to link the strain with any particular injury at the moment.
It is also suggesting that the strain occurs around the ankle which as far as I'm aware is not a joint particularly prone to injury whilst skiing.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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^ So Neil Maclean-Martin (physio and director of befitapps) raises a different problem as he does not talk about fat skis on hard snow but says that fat skis encourage people to go off piste and ski terrain they are not fit/good enough to ski, causing them to having slow falls so the bindings don't release, with the longer, wider skis creating even more of a problem for ligament and meniscus injuries than 'normal' skis...
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For me, wide skis are definitely less risk as normal skis... crashing at 80-100km/h is one thing, while crashing at 30km/h, on top of that in soft powder, is completely other thing. Even for on piste, when you have something what is 110+mm under foot on hard piste, you just ski much easier with less power and angulation then when you have race skis on. So wide ski is definitely safer ski for me. To bad I'm speedoholic
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@jogi, +1. Having just spent the day for the first time in 2 seasons on 65mm SL skis as opposed to 107mm fat rockered skis, I feel much safer on the fat boys. The skinny ones need to be ridden to their strength or else they are quite unforgiven, meaning I'm having to ride on the rails at quite some speed both tiring and increasing the risk factor, but fun. Of course being a Brit (no ambiguity on this front) probably just means I'm not skiing very well, it's not in the genes apparently.
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| miranda wrote: |
And the knee surgeon who has fat skis (but I don't know if he uses them on hard snow)
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[/quote]
Certainly did today. Knees ok but told by my OH that my down hill ski on a left turn was "washing out a little" so at least that'll cheer up some of the people on this thread who think i need slalom skis:D
Jonathan
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@Jonathan Bell, well, given that those of us who've had knee injuries -and are therefore very grateful for your input- might be inclined to treat you as if you walk on water, it's good to hear that your OH keeps your feet very firmly on the ground 
Sounds like you're on holiday, and absolutely no worries if you're too busy getting in some RnR to reply, but if you did have a moment, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only SH interested to hear your feelings about physio Neil Maclean-Martin's post on his website linked to above? Seems to me he's not saying anything new in terms of how these sorts of knee injuries happen (certainly nothing you've not said on here before in terms of how to do your best to prevent knee injury), except to imply there's been a recent increase as a result of recreational skiers getting on fat skis and doing stuff they're not 'supposed' to be doing…?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@miranda, doesn't seem like the most scientific of surveys to me - not even sure it's correct that a longer ski will create greater torque but maybe an engineer can set us straight on that one 
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You know it makes sense.
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@Arno, longer lever = greater torque, other things (that is, lateral force) being equal.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@laundryman,yes - I should stay away from speculating on stuff like this 
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Poster: A snowHead
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@laundryman, ah, the Whitedots I was trying to haul over on to their edges at MK, were extremely long (for me - I'm extremely short!) So maybe the length caused more of a problem than the width. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Pedantica, I found this online from Rick Howell, designer of "ACL-friendly bindings"
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| Super short skiboard-length skis will produce less knee injuries because a super-short skiboard ski can 'slip' laterally in the snow, then NOT 'catch' — because it's so short. However, in order to generate this lateral-slipping / non-catching effect, a ski must be shorter than the distance from the ground to the center of your chest. Then the question becomes — what aspects of skiing does one compromise with a skiboard length ski ? Of course, one could increase the width of the ski to make-up for the reduced amount of flotation found in a super-short ski, but kindly remember that increased ski width generates (directly) increased valgus torque about the knee ... thereby increasing strain across the ACL. |
Pixie-sized skis it is then! 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Or snowblades for everyone...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Ffs, just got rid if my skiboards. Looks like I have to go back to them
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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As a counterpoint. I've descended one of the local steepish blue runs on 44mm skating skis with no edge, I would say that is probably worse for you than skiing on 120mm skis on the same run. So that probably sets a lower width limit.
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@davidof, far more likely to lead to injury.
Skating skis do have edges though, usually
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
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I would also bet that a world cup racer put more force on their knee than a recreational punter ?
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Most of them eventually rupture their ACL though!
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| under a new name wrote: |
@davidof, far more likely to lead to injury.
Skating skis do have edges though, usually |
no not normally.
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