 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| FastMan, good definition of chatter. Is it possible to get chattering skis from too much edge angle? |
I'd say, yes, but conditionally. If edge application skills are lacking, such as not applying in a progressive manner. And if the properties/integrity of the skis are not up to the task. WC photos show that even on those rock hard courses clean carving at edge angles most of us can't come close to achieving are very possible. I believe it comes down to technique, equipment and tuning more than edge angle.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| FastMan, also chatter from a very uneven surface? |
Yeah, good one. It can break the ski free of it's engagement, and set chatter to life. Takes real edge feel/control to get it back smoothly, to ride it out and not panic/jam.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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FastMan, I'd normally suggest spoofing it: relax, chill, ride it out and keep the skis pointing where anyone else would imagine they'd like to be pointing theirs? Much like blue ice??
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FastMan, from personal experience of falling off motorcycles, snowboard, skis, bicycle (though at least one of those was a CyclingHomeFromThePubWhilePissed incident) . . . the first cause of chatter is stiff legs (poor response/reaction). It doesn't matter how expensive, damped, responsive or well constructed your skis or snowboard are, unless your personal 'suspension' is at the minimum, aware of and responsive to the input that the hill is providing . . . your snowtool is never going to be anything other than a vibrating plank of wood.
This is why we all love 'hero snow', it doesn't require much input from us to ride it with huge satisfaction 
There's also the difference between being the driver or the passenger on either ski's or snowboard . . . it's a small and sometimes subtle, but it will significantly change the performance characteristics of what's strapped to your feet.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Masque, I totally agree. It's why I gave "technique" top billing. The stiff leg flaw is a great one to point out. Something I refer to as "dog in a bathtub" syndrome. Although I don't think that descriptor of mine is yet widely known and used enough to have earned prime time recognition in Skimottaret's glossary. 
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"Chatter" something in the BZK glossary that I understand and have experienced. At last! 
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CHATTER - When the skis repeatedly lose and reattempt to grip the snow in a rapid pulsating fashion and feel as though they are skipping sideways across the snow. Typically experienced when attempting to carve on very hard snow, ice or uneven surfaces.
Chatter can have various causes including: engaging the skis too harshly at the start of the turn, not applying pressure in a progressive manner during the turn, trying to jam the edge in the snow/ice after a ski has already started to slide, and the presence of bit of steering in the attempted carve.
Any better???
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skimottaret, I'd only add that it can be caused by the snow itself - skiing on frozen "corduroy" makes avoiding chatter practically impossible.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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David Murdoch, We skied on that in VT for a couple of mornings - truely horrid stuff. I was amazed that it was that frozen that the ski didn't even scuff the surface - made a foul sound as well. I much perferred the foot of powder we played in one day - great fun!!
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Any good?
Un weighting - Reducing the amount of weight on the skis to manipulate and control pressure. There are four ways to produce un weighting
up-unweighting - Produced at the end of a turn through a rapid upward extension of the body
down-unweighting - Produced by a rapid downward flexion of the body
terrain unweighting - produced by using the terrain to help unweight the skis
rebound-unweighting - produced by the skis decambering and returning the energy at the end of a turn
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Up - unweighting at the end of a turn?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Yoda, i suppose it can be any where, but i always thought of it as an up and over type move to transition.
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ah so what you mean is actually the start of the next turn? Up-unweighting was always taught as an aid to turn initiation iirc?
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You know it makes sense.
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Yoda, the old conundrum of start of turn or end of turn.  .. how bout
up-unweighting - A rapid upward extension of the body typically used at the end of a turn to aid the initiation and transition into the next turn.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Yoda, i dont think the skis neccessarily have to leave the ground in un weighting. to me it is more shifting mass upward to get light on the feet so you can flatten the skis. Perhaps leaving the ground could define a jump or hop turn (which i cant remember is even in the dictionary)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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JUMP TURN - Any turn in which the skis leave the surface of the snow. Typically used in steep or variable snow conditions to turn in a narrow corridor.....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BLOCKAGE - or Blocking, When the position of some of the bodies joints effectively "blocks" or reduces the range of movement of other joints. To feel an example of this effect stand in your skiing "goal keepers" position with all the joint flexed and your elbows slightly out as if you are holding poles. Now raise your elbows up as high as they will go and your neck/upper body will be blocked. Similarily drop your elbows into your sides and your lower back will be blocked.
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RISER PLATE - aka, Binding lifters or plates. Flate plates which are mounted between the top of the skis and the bindings. Riser plates have two functions, one is to transmit the load from the skiers boot more evenly, producing a more consistent flex pattern within the ski.
Secondly when a ski is tipped onto one edge the point of contact with the snow is off centre with with relation to the centre of the skiers ankle within the boot. By increasing the distance of the skiers ankle from the snow with a riser when the ski is tipped onto one edge the line of force transmitted from the ankle through to the surface is nearer to the edge of the ski in contact with the snow the thereby making the ski hold it edge more effectively.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Carrots -
Stubbies -
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skimottaret, I wouldn't have described open and closed gates as combinations by themselves, they are the building blocks for combinations.
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rjs, fair point, could you have a go at a definition for each?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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...and that hairpin diagram looks a bit strange. I've never seen a combination like that. What I understand by a hairpin would require moving the entry (red) gate up the slope and over so the left hand pole (looking down the slope) is the turning pole, and move the exit gate out, so it forces a sharper exit from the combination. In my book:
hairpin = 2 closed gates (or one closed + one open hard against it), resulting in 2 rapid turns, exit travelling in same direction across the slope as entry;
verticale, aka flush = 3 closed gates (or 2 + 1 open), resulting in 3 rapid turns;
royal flush = 4 closed gates (or 3 + 1 open), resulting in 4 rapid turns (often set diagonally across the slope);
under gate, aka banana = 2 open gates, with little (say half a gate width) vertical or horizontal offset between them, describing a single long turn.
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The FIS precisions contain diagrams that show allowed gate spacings. The gates that make up your banana diagram look to have too much vertical spacing to me.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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rjs, GrahamN, updated above any better? I nicked the diagrams and i think they are more illustrative as opposed to describing perfect setout
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think the diagrams I came across first, a few years ago, and still the most informative (albeit least professionally produced) I've seen are those in the CSCF Technical Articles manual, pages 2-4 to 2-6 in this version (and probably 116-120 in the Drills/Exercises/Setting manual you got from the L1 course).
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| ...and that hairpin diagram looks a bit strange. |
GramamN, you're right. The problem with the hairpin in that diagram is that it's set to be skied into. Hairpins almost never get set that way anymore. In that diagram, the skier would normally ski around the right side (skier's right) of the top pole of the hairpin, then exit out the right side of it. the open gate after the hairpin should be set to the skiers right of the hairpin,,, not the left, as it is now. A hairpin is used to move a skier laterally across the slope.
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You know it makes sense.
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I have changed over the diagrams.... any better?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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SMALLZOOKEEPER, I don't like unnecessary jargon, but I think this is a brilliant and useful thread. If the latest stuff is mumbo jumbo to you (as it is to me) that's because it's not your area of expertise. I'm sure you can easily outdo the next person when it comes to mumbo jumbo about feet, boots and skis.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| I have changed over the diagrams.... any better? |
A banana is a delay gate, you don't need both diagrams 2 and 6. Your new one #6 is the better of the two as it gives the idea of one longer turn
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rjs, oops forgot to delete the other diagrams. now fixed.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Yes, much better, but I agree with rjs, banana == delay. If you look at diagram 6, gates numbered 2-4 are essentially the same as the three in diagram 2. It's arguable whether the middle gate of the combination is open or closed (particularly in that CSCF diagram), but the important feature is that the two gates combine to produce a single change of direction. Diagram 2 does show the case though where the course-setter uses an under gate (a single closed gate, as in this diagram) to force the skiing line lower down the slope between two widely spaced gates - this prevents taking the high line cutting tight around the first gate and swooping in a long curve into the lower open gate. I.e. it's just something the course setter may use to constrain the rhythm a skier might prefer to take if left to their own devices.
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Hurtle, Hang on the thread title is a glossary of Terms and Phrases, then you just got the usual suspects talking utter Shite and trying to out talk each other. It's hysterical that these folks have nothing better to do or talk about, it is total and utter Bullshite. End of.
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Ah - pre-empted. May still be worth putting the under gate diagram back though, for the reasons in my previous post (and putting banana as a synonym for delay).
SMALLZOOKEEPER, too much of the sauce last night? Bit of a sore head? This is entirely in keeping with the thread - defining terms which describe recognised gate patterns. When blogging about races I've often wondered whether any non-racers would understand a word of my course descriptions, so these definitions and diagrams are really good. It may well be shite to you, but then I hear you've rarely ever been seen to turn anyway .
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sat 13-09-08 12:39; edited 1 time in total
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Hurtle, Let me tell you this. Get some good boots so as you can control those long things called skis. Buy some warm clothes to protect you from the elements. Buy a lift ticket or walk up the mountain if you feel up for it. Once at the top of the mountain, let gravity do it's thing and use that thing called a BRAIN to teach yourself to control you speed as you feel comfortable, your well fitting boots will enable you to make adjustments that count. The rest is fun, make sure you smile at the end of the day. Be guided by your BRAIN as to how often and fast you wish to do this. Enjoy yourself.
End off, the rest of the above IS absolute UTTER SHITE. Get some lives you...........Retarded, OCD ridden bunch of Halfwits. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN, Sorry mate, something like that.
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GrahamN, Just look at it, you wrote this!!!!!!!!! And meant it!!!!!!
(and putting banana as a synonym for delay).
WTF!!!!!!
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FAQ
Should something like "in an energetic form this "unweighting" of the skis causes them to leave the ground altogether. At this point they can be rotated whilst in mid-air, creating a "hop" turn" be added here? I would distinguish this from a "jump" turn which involves a deliberate push-off from the uphill ski, but is that a valid distinction?
