 Poster: A snowHead
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laundryman, tend to agree but with the proviso that a shell is inanimate and can be fired at any angle of yaw. An aircraft follows a trajectory in 3 dimensions, it's only when it's given specific instruction to limit its movement is that called a flightpath. 
What limits us is the surface of the stuff we slide on.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Masque wrote: |
| As for "requires a later payback" . . . not only is that an abysmal euphemism but it is also contrary to the idea of action and reaction as it implies that a response is not required immediately to forces applied and received. |
Whether it's an abysmal euphemism or not, it's nothing to do with the action/reaction of Newton's 3rd law (which is not relevant to the point I'm making), but is saying, as I illustrated in the associated examples, precisely what you think it's saying; if you do something to get bits of the body moving relative to each other at some time, you'll require a corresponding change (with associated forces) sometime later to stop you spreading all over the mountain. Hence the alternative of "loan and repayment", a concept used similarly in describing the "seething vacuum" of QED. And remember that para was just a summary of what I'd written earlier - so don't have a go at it in isolation.
Inside/outside? Again it's important to know the context of the description - relative to the turn or to the body? Uphill/downhill sometimes also doesn't work on a nursery slope though either does it, as there's a barely discernable slope. When talking about edges of skis I've now started using medial/lateral - unfortunately it's medical jargon, but at least it's unambiguous.
Path - one-dimensional locus of points on a 2-dimensional surface within 3-dimensional space, but not necessarily (as in this case) involving the 4th dimension, that of time . Whereas trajectory does necessarily involve time. Anyone still hanging on to the will to live?
What this thread really shows is that if someone is determined to misunderstand something there's very little you can do to stop them.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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GrahamN,
That should work particularly well on a 5 year old.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Hurtle, but how many 5 year olds do you think are on fora like these?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN, Then what the hell was the point you were making with that term "requires a later payback" it has no meaning in any context that I can see in your post.
Adding 'time' as opposed to 'timing' to differentiate why one would use the word 'trajectory' as opposed to 'path' in the vocabulary of tuition is EXACTLY why it should not be done . . . that last thing that should be on the mind of a student/client/friend as they look down a slope of any degree is "WTF did he mean". 
In any form of teaching (and I am a coach), the communication between instructor and instructee has to be complete . . . even if it's gestural as opposed to verbal and as such, the use of ambiguous terminology is both destructive and potentially very dangerous. It is always better to use the most common or accepted forms of description for movement for teaching until both you and the pupil have formed a relationship that allows you to use descriptive language to finesse performance. Personal snow skills are secondary to teaching ability at all levels . . . but those snow skills have to be significant.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Since you seem determined to not read what I originally wrote, and what we were discussing in that para, here it is again.
| GrahamN wrote: |
It certainly is possible to "apply pressure [force]" early in a turn, by extending the legs, so projecting the CoM (centre of mass) away from the skis (mechanism 3). As it's a purely relative motion though, you have to pay back later with reduced pressure when you shorten the legs - as your legs are not infinitely extensible. However this can also be beneficial, if timed correctly. In the second half of the turn, force arising from the weight/gravity (1) and that causing acceleration of your body towards the centre of the turn (2) act in the same direction so the force is at its maximum. Applying the leg shortening (3) then reduces the pressure and minimises the chances of the ski breaking away. Getting the pressure early has the added benefit that the motion of the CoM it causes is more down the hill - the overall direction you're trying to go in a race.
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Get it now?
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Path/trajectory - once again you've missed the point that I really don't care (but you seem to), as until you get really anal about it they mean the same. (Edit: Although now I think back, the rate at which you progress along that path around the mountain is a relevant factor, not just its geographical layout, which is why I used "trajectory" in the first place. So what word would you use, in this written medium, to get over that concept) As I said: Anyone still hanging on to the will to live?
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Sun 16-09-07 11:50; edited 1 time in total
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GrahamN,
| Quote: |
how many 5 year olds do you think are on fora like these?
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None, obviously, but plenty of parents with 5 year olds who are learning how to ski and, I guess, quite a few adults for whom the use of the words 'medial' and 'lateral' is not necessarily second nature.
| Quote: |
Anyone still hanging on to the will to live?
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I suppose the fact that I'm still posting means that I'm still alive. Just.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret,
| Quote: |
i sometimes use uphill / downhill side when speaking
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Me too, but I didn't dare admit to it!
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GrahamN, If you want to get pedantic, the leg extension at the very start of a turn may not project the CoM away from the ski/board so much as to allow the central mass to continue in a stable trajectory/path while the lower body extends with a minimal pressure variance (only enough to influence ski direction) and to then as the skis turn under the moving central mass the combined forces as their vectors converge to load the legs. The "payback" as you call it is in this case the energy stored in the flex of the ski/board to 'fire' out of the turn.
As you say, I get it but, no amount of perfume will make a turd smell any better. Descriptive language needs to be just that and be specific to the exercise. In this case you are attempting to describe just one of many forms of turn/carve initiation and you've made that one thing almost incomprehensible to some, perhaps many of your readers . . . why do you think that that is a valid position to take?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Masque wrote: |
In any form of teaching (and I am a coach), the communication between instructor and instructee has to be complete . . . even if it's gestural as opposed to verbal and as such, the use of ambiguous terminology is both destructive and potentially very dangerous. It is always better to use the most common or accepted forms of description for movement for teaching until both you and the pupil have formed a relationship that allows you to use descriptive language to finesse performance. Personal snow skills are secondary to teaching ability at all levels . . . but those snow skills have to be significant. |
 Yaaaaaaay
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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OK, Masque, (BTW I agree that your alternative view is valid - as another specific instance, as was my example, of the general point I've been making all the way through this), as you have clearly come into this conversation only part way through and haven't read this part of the conversation in full, I'll also repeat that that description was largely word for word what was given to me when being introduced to the pressure control aspect of a GS turn. It didn't however include the loan/repayment idea - and I spent a fair bit of time trying to work out how I was getting something for nothing.
But take the (I suspect fairly common scenario) of a stiff skier riding as a solid lump on their skis/board and wondering how to manage/mitigate the pressure buildup coming out of a GS turn. I think my description of why they want to do something different is both clear and concise. But as I'm such a lousy teacher and apalling writer I'd like to see your alternative.
I'd also like to point out that you claimed total mystification when you read only the discussion about the original thesis, but it became clear when you read a section of what was actually being discussed - and it may become even clearer if you read all of it. If you don't listen to/read something is it really the fault of the speaker/writer if you don't understand it?
And then "I'm out".
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| skimottaret wrote: |
That is interesting and explains some confusion we have encountered. i cant speak for easyski but over here it is the turn as the reference that determines inside or outside edge. That is why i sometimes use uphill / downhill side when speaking which seems more universal, but much to the anoyance of some peeps on  ..... |
Uphill/Downhill changes during a turn - so is confusing unless you explain which part of the turn...Works fine for traversing..
Inside/Outside ski or leg works well during a turn as it is consistent during the turn...
Inside/Outside edge referenced to body stays consistent all the time....
Inside/Outside edge referenced to turn changes on each turn....
I have always been taught to use the one that will cause least possible amount of confusion... that requires least amount of extra explanation....
Hence my instructors use Inside/Outside ski/leg in a turn referenced to turn and Inside/Outside edge referenced to body (i.e. like medial and lateral that Graham uses but far simpler terms for average person to understand)
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN
| Masque wrote: |
| I've just read all of this thread . . . |
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger, I understand the same, but that is precisely the source of the ambiguity - inside/outside leg is clear, but inside/outside edge is ambiguous. I guess big/little toe is unambiguous and non-jargon - the only downside being that it's a little too non-technical?
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger, Yeah but...(for the ski/leg) 'inside' what, exactly? What are the boundaries within which it is contained, that make it an inside ski? I think of it being inside the space between me and the hill. So it's uphill.
Perhaps this all stems (no pun intended) from the fact that, when we first learn, we turn to slow ourselves down, and we turn uphill to do that. And that remains the case, we turn more or less away from the fall line, unless we're wedel-ing straight down it.
And that leads me to think that 'inside' perhaps means 'inside the space between me and the direction of the turn.'
Having just argued myself through a complete circle, I think I'll get back to work...  (Next time I'm on the snow, I shall probably find myself doing involuntary 360 degree turns. )
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN,
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a little too non-technical
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In my book, one can never be too non-technical!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Hurtle wrote: |
| little tiger, Yeah but...(for the ski/leg) 'inside' what, exactly? |
Inside of the curve(or arc) I'm skiing..... as I have been trained to mostly ski curves this is no problem for me...
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, Yup, that's where I got to....in the end! 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Hurtle,
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Hurtle, I find it easiest to take instruction from my instructor if we use terms that need the least extra explanation....
Hence such things as "more inside leg steering" or "flex inside leg more during turn" are easy if we understand the same stuff...
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little tiger, Yes - and even GrahamN is coming round to this view - 'understanding the same stuff' is absolutely key!
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Hurtle, yes I have taken friends into my private lessons.... They think that I'm not getting any coaching because my cues are either a few words only or one word or a simple hand or body move. On the other hand he would give them very long descriptions and explanations... as they do not know him or vice versa
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Shortly after I got my Grade 3, I did my PADI Open Water course. As an instructor myself, I felt it very interesting to observe how dive instructors can teach someone the skills need to dive, whilst sat 3 m underwater, with minimal explanation on dry land prior. I think some ski instructors could learn a lot from them!!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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beanie1, my ex is very deaf but a ski instructor trainer... he learnt to ski before he admitted to needing hearing aids... so he mostly just watched the body language and movements... his youngest brother is even MORE deaf... He convinced the brother to find a job that his deafness was not a liability... hence the brother is now a qualified dive instructor... and training for his pilots(boat) licence... He thinks dive stuff is great as no-one can hear and he is very good at body language
I swear one of my ex's strengths at instructing is that he is less reliant on spoken cues... he simply cannot rely on the hearing aids to work in a cold environment as they freeze regularly.... Not hearing well he does not waffle on because he is terrified the client will ask a complex question if he gives a complex explanation... also he is never sure if he is talking at the right volume... He thus talks little but does great hand signals and demos and is very aware of the persons movement patterns(he cannot ask what they feel easily so he watches for body language to pick fear etc)
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Fastman I have always believed/been taught etc. that on a curve/turn/acceleration there is an inside and an outside (one on the inside of the turn and one on the outside). Therefore each ski also has and inside and outside edge - yes relative to the turn. therefore the inside edge of the inside ski is the little toe edge. this is common and normal terminology in europe. It's what I was taught as a kid, what BASI said when doing my exams, and what the French, Italians, Germans, Dutch and Danish all understand! If anyone is in doubt (Hurtle has previously expressed a problem with this, then I draw a picture on the snow.
The problems with this that I see are when peeps have hung on to the uphill/downhill idea past the stage where they're doing linked turns. Little Tiger has the opposite view of heel and toe lifting to me - we've had some giggles on occasion!
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easiski, but the Italian I skied with used inside and outside as I do... (except he says interior and exterior)
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You know it makes sense.
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little tiger,
I know what you mean! I taught some deaf children once. I was giving a hearing loop to use (like a microphone i wore that connected into their hearing aids), but was still told to keep verbal instruction short, clear and precise. I learnt loads! They were only about 13 or 14 anyway, so wouldn't have been interested in long technical explanation...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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little tiger, Aah - the ones who work here seem to use it the same as me.
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, yes very confusing.... I'll check when I am there again but seem to remember the discussions because we discussed the interior/exterior versus inside/outside as well... also diverging and converging.... as all were accompanied by hand signals of the skis I think I had it right....
and I know the guys at home use Austrian based progression and talk about a snowplow as being on both inside edges and ditto the rollerblading instructors...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hurtle, i agree Masque is correct in having common terminology to not confuse learners but in North America they do use different terms. For instance (i am sure V8 will correct me if i am wrong) but i do hear canadian instructors use "pivot" when we would say "steer". A pivot turn over here implies the tails of the ski being up off of the snow and a "steer" is a rotation move with skis on snow.
Also, they tend to say "Wedge" instead of "plough", I also hear the canadians i work with say uphill/downhill more....
They physics guys descriptions may be scientifically correct but are not typically used by the general public. I am an engineer and understand trajectory versus path but for instance would never use the word trajectory, too confusing.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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skimottaret, my canadian instructor uses pivot and steer same way I do.... in fact he taught me.... pivot is ski not engaged (and usually we do them as redirection at start of turn)... steer is of engaged edge...
Maybe it is a racer versus instructor thing?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Surely a pivot is a method of steering??
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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little tiger, No I think it is a Canadian instructor thing. your description is correct and as i understand it, but the CSIA manual uses the terms Pivoting, edging and pressure as opposed to BASI who say steering edging and pressure.. Symantics again but your description is more technically correct IMV and is what i was taught.
from the CSIA manual "Pivoting - Pivoting is the ability to utilize the legs and feet to help guide the skis in a specific direction. Whether the turns are carved or skidded, the lower body leads the turning effort."
Pivoting is a method of steering but is not the same thing IMV.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Sun 16-09-07 17:02; edited 2 times in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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beanie1, no it is a redirection of an unweighted ski.....
if you want all things that make a ski "turn" to be steering then edging is a method of steering... which may be sort of correct but would be very confusing...after all I can tighten a turn by increasing my edge angles but few think of that as "steering"....
the above pivot and steer are pretty common race coach uses.... and my canadian was a good racer when young (hell he still is now as he can get through a course 1 sec faster than a CSIA level 4 pacesetter when he has not really trained gates - he swears he got faster the following year when he trained a bit more) so I wonder if he picked that up from the racing more than the CSIA training...
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skimottaret, but what is the CSCF definition??? I'm suggesting it may match ours a bit better
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little tiger, you got me.... i was just offering a reason why some canadians use the term...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimottaret, yeah I'd love to grab a current manual from each.... maybe veeeight will enlighten us... or perhaps I will get energetic and ask (my australian instructor is a high level CSCF certified coach and used to coach in Canada each season before he had a family)
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little tiger,
But I do think control of edge pressure is a method of steering!
For BASI steering is one of the fundamental elements defined like this:
Steering, a combination of:
- Pressure control
- Edge control
- Control of rotation
The steering elements are blended to produce a variety of different types of turns. e.g. In a high speed long radius carving turn you'd use a lot of pressure and edge control, but relatively slow and passive leg rotation. In a short turn on a steep pitch - lots more rotation to get skis across the fall line quickly, edge and pressure used to "check" at the end of the turn.
A ski that is pivoted I would understand to be one where a lot of rotation has been used.
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FAQ
