 Poster: A snowHead
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
@Glosterwolf,
I would not for a second suggest that fat skis are the ideal tools for slalom skiing, which is effectively what you're describing, but it's about a lot more than the edge transition speed.
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Last year, on the BB I was skiing with a well known snowhead who is a very technical & fast skier who would normally beat me, on my skinnies, through the slalom gates. This time, I was on my 110s, he was on fis slalom skis, down the parallel slalom course, I won!
The 110s seemed to hold the edge better in the turns, holding the carve, rather than losing the edge grip & sliding sideways.
Just as height weight are used to determine ski length, they should be used for ski width as well, at 90kg & not carrying much fat, I can boss a pair of 110s around like someone of 70kg on a pair of 95s.
As far as the OP can't carve, won't carve is concerned, I would share my own feelings about how I do it.
A smooth & quiet blue run is the best place to start.
Weight should be forward such that there is a gentle to moderate pressure on your shins from the boots, about 30 cm between the skis.
Push both knees to the side that you wish to turn to put both skis on edge.
This is the hard part!
The skis should "lock" onto the snow, like they are on rails but this is where beginner carvers will fall or bottle out, because the skis are going where they want to go and you have to adjust your balance to suit the trajectory of the ski, rather than adjusting the side slip of the ski to suit your balance.
It's a bit like comparing walking to riding a bicycle, with walking, you can simply step to one side or the other to suit your balance, on a bicycle, it's more like making fine adjustments to the control of the machine and your body in order to remain balanced.
Put another way, imagine being stood up on a bus, normally you would step side to side to stay upright
, but with carving, it is like having your feet stuck in one place, you have to look forward and lean to keep your balance matched with where the bus is turning.
Does this make any sense to anybody else?, as I say, it is just the way that I feel about learning to carve my turns.
As a motorcyclist, there are some that like the straight line speed & acceleration, but I love the feeling of leaning the bike through the bends, the sensation of carved turns is just the same, the harder the turn, the better. Many people don't enjoy this as much as I do and there are other aspects of skiing that are more enjoyable to them, as such, being able to carve a turn is more of a technical achievement, rather than something to enjoy in itself.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Chaletbeauroc, We teach kids to link clean arcs without using the whole of a wide piste, it isn't that difficult.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@tangowaggon, i'd take it a step back to begin with, and start by doing side slips. Learning how rolling the ankles and knees in to the hill engages the edges.
From there I'd then build it up to garlands, across a slope. Then I'd work up to J turns on both sides, then look at rail tracks, and then moving that in to full carved turns
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| jedster wrote: |
of course with cross under short carves when you load the tails at the end of a turn and control the pop on release it is quite possible that the rotation happens when you have no or almost no snow contact and you just put the new edge back on the snow with a gentle kiss. So you go from one pure carve to another. Personally I find that a lot easier on SLs than >100m freeride skis but that might be because of my technical shortcomings. |
I know what you mean about the 'pure carve' but it's really just a question of semantics more than anything else. When I do 'carving' on a wide piste I'm looking for a smooth transition and a completely regular turn radius, which is never going to be found in short turns either. And I think that this is what the "can't carve" faction are talking about.
Your preference is your preference, but I can't help but be slightly worried about your description of 'loading the tails'. Implies that at that point in the turn your weight is too far back, so you may have something you could work on there. It's definitely not something I'd be wanting to see in a short turn exercise. |
THat's interesting, most descriptions of short carved turns I have read talk of weight moving towards the tails at the end of the turn. I find I lose carving performance on skis with flatter straighter tails which don't offer the same edge grip at the finish of the turn (obviously they bring benefits in ease of pivotting and drifting) but perhaps that is a function of my dodgy technique. I have been meaning to have a lesson!
Point taken on smooth even turns. I do like to increase the edge angle through the turn to tighten it, simply because I enjoy the sensations.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rickboden wrote: |
| On piste, Every single turn, bar the odd extreme gradient jump turn, should be a carved turn followed by the skidding component which happens towards the end in order to decelerate. |
If you are skidding/rotating/twisting your skis at some point in the turn in order to control speed or turn shape it's not a carved turn.
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@rickboden, sounds like you don't understand a carved turn by your description there.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you are skidding/rotating/twisting your skis at some point in the turn in order to control speed or turn shape it's not a carved turn. |
You just defined "carving" as something which can never be done.
And yet lots of people do it. So your definition must be incorrect.
I did actually check the Basi stuff and they don't appear to an unrealistic definition of what is quite a useful technique for most of us unencumbered by that sort of theory.
What are you guys teaching, exactly, if you're not teaching people to carve? Do you tell the punters it's snowplough only?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you are skidding/rotating/twisting your skis at some point in the turn in order to control speed or turn shape it's not a carved turn. |
You just defined "carving" as something which can never be done.
And yet lots of people do it. So your definition must be incorrect.
I did actually check the Basi stuff and they don't appear to an unrealistic definition of what is quite a useful technique for most of us unencumbered by that sort of theory.
What are you guys teaching, exactly, if you're not teaching people to carve? Do you tell the punters it's snowplough only? |
No idea what your point is.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| phil_w wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| If you are skidding/rotating/twisting your skis at some point in the turn in order to control speed or turn shape it's not a carved turn. |
You just defined "carving" as something which can never be done.
And yet lots of people do it. So your definition must be incorrect.
I did actually check the Basi stuff and they don't appear to an unrealistic definition of what is quite a useful technique for most of us unencumbered by that sort of theory.
What are you guys teaching, exactly, if you're not teaching people to carve? Do you tell the punters it's snowplough only? |
Carved turns don't have any skidding at all.
From the IASI level 2 criteria:
"Cleanly carved long tuns leaving clean lines in the snow, with appropriate range and rate of movement in both vertical and lateral planes (i.e., not static)"
If there's any skidding involved then at best it's advanced parallel, where only part of the turn is carved.
Carved turns don't come from rotating the ski/foot/leg to create a skid at the top of a turn, but from moving from one edge to other either in a cross over or cross under method.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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@phil_w, BASI define the 3 steering elements of a turn as Edge, Rotation and Pressure. These are all (potential) inputs and how they are blended creates different turn shapes. The difference between a carved turn and any other type of turn is that in a carved turn the rotation is a passive output effect, not an input element from the skier.
From the BASI manual:
A high-speed carved turn generally combines a high degree of edge angle with a large amount of pressure. The skis do rotate in this type of turn, but the rotation is at the same rate as the line of the turn itself. The rotation in this turn is sometimes described as passive.
A carved turn is created only through edge and pressure inputs. Having to "unlearn" the foundational concept of using rotation as an input is what makes carving a higher level skill that most people can't grasp.
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| Quote: |
A carved turn is created only through edge and pressure inputs. Having to "unlearn" the foundational concept of using rotation as an input is what makes carving a higher level skill that most people can't grasp.
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Ha, yes. It took me years to stop bloody thigh steering. Even after I grasped the idea and knew not to do it, it was such an ingrained habit that it defeated my carving for ages.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| The problem from the very start of this thread has been that some people seem to believe that if you're not pure carving then you're not carving at all and there's no point in having carving skis, which is nonsense. It's not black and white, either or, even though some people are saying "if you do x then you're not carving". If you do x then you're not carving _at that point_ but it doesn't mean you're not carving at all. |
How much twisting or skidding of the ski do you allow before you describe the turn as something other than carved?
I tend to describe turns in three broad categories:
1. Skiddy turn
2. Grippy turn
3. Carved turn
A skiddy turn has a lot of twisting in the blend of steering elements, typically when speed control is very important. At its most extreme it would be a braquage-type turn.
A grippy turn is the general purpose turn that is used for most of the piste map, for most of the time. There is some twisting/rotating of the ski through the turn, mores in the first part of the turn, less in the last part of the turn where the ski is probably running along the edge with little rotational steering. Obviously the blend of edging and rotation varies, depending on the terrain, the snow and how the skier wants to ski.
A carved turn the ski runs along its edge from start to finish of the turn, with the size of the turn determined by edge angle and how the skier manages the pressure generated during the turn. In order that the turn is created by edge angle with no rotation, it is important that the transition from the previous turn simply rolls the ski from edge to edge. This is the part that challenges most skiers when they try to carve their turns, as described by @olderscot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ... carving skis ... |
What is a "carving ski"? It's a term which I don't think makes any sense at all. Back in the day when skis with a pronounced sidecut in their geometry were first introduced I guess at that point it could distinguish between other skis which had no or extremely little sidecut, but these days don't all types of ski have a sidecut of some kind?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| How much twisting or skidding of the ski do you allow before you describe the turn as something other than carved? |
I don't.
If we're doing pure carved (==BASI long) turns then none. If we're doing anything else then parts of the turn are carved and parts of it are not.
| rob@rar wrote: |
| What is a "carving ski"? It's a term which I don't think makes any sense at all. Back in the day when skis with a pronounced sidecut in their geometry were first introduced I guess at that point it could distinguish between other skis which had no or extremely little sidecut, but these days don't all types of ski have a sidecut of some kind? |
Even pre-carving skis had some sidecut - it was the technological change that (I think) started with the development of snowboards that gave more torsional stability and allowed a lot more, and in much shorter skis. But yeah, even the longest radius skis you can find these days still mostly fit within the old definition of 'carving' skis so in the context of modern skis the term is indeed irrelevant.
I was using it to try and dispel the myth that you're either carving or you're not, exemplified by some people who may suggest that if you're doing skidded turns all the time then you're not using the carving nature of the ski (and that therefore you might as well be on old long straight planks).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| ... then parts of the turn are carved and parts of it are not. |
When skiers talk about carved turns, do they mean carved for part of the turn or carved for all of the turn? If they mean part of the turn, does it count as carved if it is the very final part of the turn just before you release the edges to transition in to the next turn? Language and technical descriptions can be a minefield, which is why I reserve "carved" for clean linked arcs, no skidding or twisting of the ski, in a precise definition. It's why I talk about a grippy turn, language which the people I teach seem to readily understand, and allows plenty of scope to explore where in the turn the ski grips cleanly, and runs along its edge, eg, before the fall line, at the fall line, or after the fall line, and what inputs are required from the skier to control that grip at that point of the turn.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| I was using it to try and dispel the myth that you're either carving or you're not... |
But it's not a myth. It might well be your definition, but as recent posts have quoted, BASI and IASI require turns which are shaped by edging and pressure management to leave clean lines in the snow (ie, no skidding or twisting).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Chaletbeauroc wrote: |
| Carved turns vs. skidded turns is another way of describing what BASI refer to as long turns vs. short turns |
Sorry but I think that's a bit simplistic. Those are the two ends of the spectrum but there are more combinations in-between.
BASI used to refer to how the combination of the arc length and the radius of a turn creates the turn shape within a given corridor width but it seems to have much less prominence in the current manual than it used to, perhaps because most people didn't get it when I went through the system.
Anyway, this is a precis of what I was taught and is still my understanding:
A short arc, short radius turn in a narrow corridor will always be skidded because you're turning well within the natural radius of the ski. This is the archetypal "short turn" on steeps.
A long arc, short radius turn is an active cross-under type turn down the fall line that could be skidded, carved or a blend of the two depending on the ski's radius and the skier's ability. It can probably only be carved on a short radius ski and most people would use skidding for this turn shape.
A short arc, long radius turn is a cross-under type turn down the fall line that is the most easily carved as it requires the least edge angle and pressure. Think race slalom technique through a verticale for a carved example. The "lazy" version of this on a long radius ski is what's often referred to as "railing" when it's carved.
A long arc, long radius turn in a wide corridor is the archetypal "long turn" and can be skidded or carved according to the skier's ability. This is the turn shape that most people think of when discussing carving. The ski's radius has less effect on whether it's possible to carve this size turn shape but it's generally accepted that a medium/long radius ski is easier.
So of the four arc length/radius combinations, four of them can be skidded and three can be skidded, carved or blended, subject to the usual variables of ability, gradient, conditions and equipment. Yes, the archetypal short turn is skidded and the purest long turn is carved but there's a whole gamut in-between.
The current BASI manual focuses more on the blending of different arc lengths and radii within a variable corridor width to adapt to the conditions rather than a simple "short turns vs long turns" approach.
Last edited by Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do. on Thu 23-05-24 18:09; edited 1 time in total
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
A long arc, short radius turn is a less active cross-under type turn down the fall line that can easily be carved on a long radius ski. This is what's often referred to as "railing" when it's carved but the same turn shape could also be skidded.
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???
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@Je suis un Skieur, Well it's about four or five years since I did my L3 tech, but that's what I'm talking about when I describe the two turn types that they require of the candidate. And on more recent ski-school training sessions its clear that these are exactly the same as the Swiss system's 'carved' and 'skidded' turns.
Crossover and crossunder were only really mentioned in passing, although I recall that those terms were perhaps used more when I first did my L2 some years earlier.
But yeah, of course I'm over-simplifying, even if my memory is 100% correct (doubtful) as these are the criteria required for the instructor and are not supposed to represent the whole gamut and almost infinite combination of turns that we encounter and use in our day to day skiing and teaching.
What we've seen from this thread is that the definition of a 'carved turn' may mean different things to different people, so I tend to avoid using it if possible where it may cause confusion.
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@Chaletbeauroc, I agree that from an instructor training & testing perspective, a long turn = carved turn. But that doesn't make long turns into de facto carved turns for the public, although I do think that's where the confusion comes from. They see someone express something like "look at that guy carving" and because the person in question is doing fast wide turns they associate the term with any fast wide turn without realising the actual technical differences between it being pure carved, skidded or blended.
And just because Joe Bloggs doesn't use the correct definition doesn't mean we should shy away from it; surely our job is to educate these people on the correct definition and explanation of carving technique*. Otherwise aren't we just dumbing down to the lowest common denominator?
* which (for me and others) is two perfectly clean lines in the snow roughly hip width apart through the full length of the turn (bit wider at the apex) with a one ski-length flat spot in the transition for the edge change, created solely through edge and pressure inputs.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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If a bunch of instructors can't agree what chance of us punters got 
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@Je suis un Skieur, Yes, you're quite right. I was really thinking about the use of terminology in the context of this thread, not on-snow teaching. And yes, the clean carve as you describe is what I'm aiming for with my students too, although I feel that the flat-spot length will often be greater than that on my preferred carve-teaching piste so is not something I would generally focus on. Next time I'm out I'll measure my own tracks to see.
@Layne, We agree! We Agree!
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ??? |
You're right, I've mixed up a couple of elements of the middle two. No wonder we don't try to explain this to punters, I had to start drawing diagrams on a piece of paper to check it myself. Have edited it - see if you agree now.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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A piste basher track width is 5m. The shortest radius turn skis are i believe about 10m.
Does that mean that if you ski inside one piste basher width you can only be skidding and that the minimum width you can properly carve inside is two piste basher widths, assuming you are on short radius skis ?
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You know it makes sense.
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@Peter S, not quite as the marked radius is flat ignoring a cambered turn and torsional flex 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Peter S, you could "rail track" inside a 5m width, but you'd soon pick up speed and want to finish to turn off to control that speed!
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Peter S wrote: |
A piste basher track width is 5m. The shortest radius turn skis are i believe about 10m.
Does that mean that if you ski inside one piste basher width you can only be skidding and that the minimum width you can properly carve inside is two piste basher widths, assuming you are on short radius skis ? |
No, there is no fixed relationship between the ski's turn radius and the width needed. You can simply perform only a very small arc before transitioning from one side to the other. On a steep slope you'll need to add some skidding to control your speed, but on a shallow one there's no reason at all why you can't carve - indeed, I do so quite often on narrow tracks, just slightly rolling the ankles from one side to the other.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Peter S, is it that wide? I’m surprised,
Anyway, a nice pair of FIS SLs and you can carve a narrower track than that 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Peter S wrote: |
A piste basher track width is 5m. The shortest radius turn skis are i believe about 10m.
Does that mean that if you ski inside one piste basher width you can only be skidding and that the minimum width you can properly carve inside is two piste basher widths, assuming you are on short radius skis ? |
No. What @Chaletbeauroc has said above is right but I'll try and flesh out the theory a bit more for you. It's much easier with a diagram than words but I haven't got one so I'll try it in terms of compass points like this one here: https://www.ke4nyv.com/navigation.htm For these examples, assume that the fall line of the slope is from due north to due south.
First, it's a ski radius, not diameter so the theoretical corridor width for a 10m radius ski is 20m, not 10m. However that's passive flat ski geometry, when you tip and pressure the ski you will bend it into reverse camber thus making it more curved which decreases the 10m radius. For argument's sake let's say it's now 8m which means you need a 16m wide corridor for two full carved turns (one either side of the N > S centre line or direction of travel).
However, using the above, the 16m diameter only applies if you follow the full arc of the compass points from your skis pointing due east at 0° N through pointing due south at 90° E to pointing due west at 180° S. The reality is that you rarely have your skis directly across the fall line when carving because you lose too much momentum. You also don't necessarily follow a perfect half circle arc because as the amount of edge angle varies at different points, so does the circle.
On a gentle slope or a path, you could only be following the compass arc from ENE to ESE before swapping edges. ESE of the old turn becomes WNW of the new turn which you follow around to WSW before swapping back to ENE again. You're therefore only travelling around two out of the potential eight quadrant arcs on each side of the compass and skiing in a very shallow S shape down the fall line. Someone cleverer than me can do the exact maths but in our example you're going to end up in a corridor width of less than 2m.
So yes, you can easily carve in the width of a piste basher track or on a path as long as the gradient doesn't create too much speed.
In terms of the arc/radius combinations I outlined a few posts above, this type of turn is the "short arc, long radius" one often referred to as railing because the direction of your tracks is only ever slightly off centre (centre being your overall direction of travel/ the fall line/N to S). It's still carving but the easiest version of it because you can do it just by rolling your ankles, on a gentle slope. Good way to learn carving though and exactly how I was first taught that a ski will turn itself if you just tip and pressure it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Je suis un Skieur wrote: |
| Dave of the Marmottes wrote: |
| ??? |
You're right, I've mixed up a couple of elements of the middle two. No wonder we don't try to explain this to punters, I had to start drawing diagrams on a piece of paper to check it myself. Have edited it - see if you agree now. |
No problem. Just got me totally confused.
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FAQ
