 Poster: A snowHead
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It's just simple logic that if everyone accepted that a downhill skier can do pretty much anything they want, and it is for the uphill skier to make allowances for that, the pistes would be much safer. There will be exceptional circumstances, the only one that I see with any frequency is someone flying onto the piste from off-piste (especially from trees) where it would be simply impossible to anticipate as the uphill skier. Pretty much anything else, the uphill skier should leave the downhill skier well alone and ski in such a way that the ANY voluntary or involuntary movement by the downhill skier will not cause a collision. The reason there is equivocation is because many want to ski at the speed they want to ski at, and often ski at speeds where they would not be able to adjust for something unexpected happening below them. In other words too fast for the conditions and the skiers ability. I would say this is true for the majority of holiday skiers. It's often not deliberate at all, merely over-confidence because they can actually ski at a reasonable pace with a good degree of control. But don't realise until it happens that they lack the skill to avoid an accident or close call when someone below them does something unexpected or just plain idiotic. It's a classic trap to fall into, especially when you are otherwise skiing well, and one we should all be conscious of.
The pole clicking thing is also simple logic. It matters not at all whether the downhill skier is or is not aware of someone who may or may not over-take them. As the complete responsibility for doing safely rests on the uphill (over-taking) skier, and they must allow for the skier being overtaken to make any movement at all including suddenly turning, stopping or crashing. What it really means is "I am here, I want to maintain speed, please don't be startled but I want to overtake you" which is all useless information if you simply take your responsibility properly. We have all seen it where someone clicks poles or calls "passing left" then gets huffy when there is a close call because the downhill skier does something stupid. Sometimes it is my student that has done something stupid because they are beginners, or scared, or tired, or lost concentration. All of which they are perfectly entitled to do.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@motyl, I totally agree.
Learning to ski as if no one else is around you is dumb. Instructors should bake it into the thought process when teaching beginners rather than the instructors just relying on FIS rules 3 and 4 and then complaining about people trying to overtake them as they snake blindly straight across the middle of a busy piste and nearly get hit or worst case have a collision.
We are human with brains, we can think about more than just putting skis into a pizza shape...surely?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Pyramus, I was thinking that yes, the awareness of others should be taught - the awareness of others on the slope that might “be/get in your way” (in your view). It seems to be assumed that it’s common sense, but we all know how common that is.
Your example of the snake is something that can be frustrating but if you end up not being able to avoid them then by definition you are not skiing in control. You are in a traffic jam, and just because you feel they are skiing with poor etiquette, it doesn’t permit you to take risks with their safety. And that is where your own perception of control and self confidence and poor risk assessment comes into play. It’s just ignorance, not being able to see the possible risks. It’s not just your health that is at risk.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Fri 19-01-24 14:00; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@Pyramus, Anyone who does not slow down and be very careful when they see a class under instruction on the mountain is just plain stupid. We were all learners once and allowances should be made. It is unacceptable to ski between members of a class under instruction simply because you want to maintain your speed, always. Just slow down and be considerate. It is not easy teaching and believe me that beginners have a hard enough time concentrating on what I am trying to get them to do, without adding anything else.
I do teach both the FIS rules and slope safety as skiers progress, especially getting students themselves to take some responsibility when setting off from the side of the piste as it is a good habit to form. But the lessons on this need to be appropriate to the level of the skier. For intermediates I will definitely talk about some defensive skiing strategies, and explain why I always wear a back protector now when teaching. One aspect that is often missed is that assuming there is enough space and no potential conflict with other skiers, maintaining your speed on steeper/narrower sections of the piste is much safer than slowing down/stopping. And it is indeed good practice when able to leave an escape corridor at the side of the piste, as well as looking upwards before committing to stopping at the side of the piste. I do feel, however, that the enforcement of basic rules and logic has deteriorated in recent years and I see many more close calls now than previously.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Pyramus, you still seem to be confusing things one might choose to do in the interests of self preservation with things you must do for the protection of others
I do think there are some very specific cases where the downhill skier might be morally at fault but these are confined to things that good skiers who ought to know better might do eg:
- leaving the piste to hit a jump back onto the piste (probably already covered in the FIS rules)
- suddenly doing things like butters in the middle of a busy cat track
- pulling unexpected ski ballet moves (I’m thinking of the dude who used to do this in Val d’I)
“Closing the door” as mentioned in the OP isn’t a thing in skiing. It’s something for F1, which has lots of different rules from skiing, being a completely different sport
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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I would like to think that we would all agree on the following:
1. Collisions should be avoided wherever possible
2. The FIS rules are there for our safety - so should be understood and followed
3. The mountain will have reckless skiers - whether skiing in front, or behind
4. The uphill skier has the ultimate responsibility to overtake safely
5. The downhill skier has the right to ski however they see fit eg. Erratically/Unpredictably - but just because they have the "right" to do so, doesn't mean it is sensible to do. However irresponsible/erratic their skiing is, it is down to the U/Hill skier to avoid a collision
6. Beginners, Early Intermediates and Classes should be given extra respect
Where most of the disagreement seems to be, is around whether it is sensible to make the skier in front aware that you are passing them.
Unsurprisingly, the Instructors commenting are aligned....It is their job to teach the FIS to their pupils, in such a way that there is total clarity over how to ski safely, so as to protect their students and other skiers. Any deviation from the code can be misconstrued as in, "If I click my poles, that entitles me to overtake". They also need to practice what they preach.
The Instructors will ski better than us and spend more time on the mountain, thus seeing the damage that ignoring the FIS rules can do. It is hard to argue with this POV, as it is what every skier should abide by.
However, as I am not totally infallible - if while I am overtaking (because the person in front is skiing predictably, so believe an overtake is safe and is possible at a safe distance), and I then see my judgement is wrong, as the person in front suddenly changes his turn shape/direction (as is his right)....I will, in order to avoid a collision, make my presence known. This is not an avoidance of my responsibility as the U/Hill skier, but an acknowledgement that I got it wrong. In a perfect world, it wouldn't happen (and in my case hasn't happened often)....but if I find myself in this position, it is what I will do.
However, if Pole Clicking is constantly used - like the flashing of lights by an impatient motorway user - to say, "Get out of my way; I'm coming through as you are holding me up", then that is not using it as an action of last resort.
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| Quote: |
I then see my judgement is wrong, as the person in front suddenly changes his turn shape/direction (as is his right)....I will, in order to avoid a collision, make my presence known.
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Hmm. That implies a very close quarters encounter and that your decision to overtake relied on the downhill skier not doing something unexpected. They'd have to be very close to you to hear your pole clicks, let alone compute instantly what they should do to avoid a collision.
On an open piste you can overtake sufficiently far away that if you've judged all the various speeds and trajectories right, there's nothing the downhill skier could do to put himself right in your path, leaving you no chance to change your own course and speed. If it's a narrow or very crowded piste, it's different and you might just need to slow right down and enjoy the scenery.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| .We were all learners once |
I wasn't, I was born as an elite level skier and continue to be there.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| NO - There is no obligation except for when starting, entering a run or skiing uphill (touring). |
This is wrong. Rule 5 "moving upwards" reference is clarified in the FIS rules and equally refers to standard carving on pistes, it is not specifically referring to touring like a few people have mentioned in previous posts.
The development of carving skis and snowboards allows their users to carve and turn upwards on the slopes. Hence they move opposite to the general downhill traffic. They must, therefore, make sure in time that they can do so without endangering themselves and others.
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I detest pole clicking. I have no idea where the sound is coming from, where the person is, how close they are or what they are going to do. Why do pole clickers think it's useful?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| zikomo wrote: |
| The pole clicking thing is also simple logic. It matters not at all whether the downhill skier is or is not aware of someone who may or may not over-take them. As the complete responsibility for doing safely rests on the uphill (over-taking) skier, and they must allow for the skier being overtaken to make any movement at all including suddenly turning, stopping or crashing. What it really means is "I am here, I want to maintain speed, please don't be startled but I want to overtake you" |
This
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| I detest pole clicking. I have no idea where the sound is coming from, where the person is, how close they are or what they are going to do. Why do pole clickers think it's useful? |
And this is why I do not see it as something that should be used in general practice. (Not purely because of you @holidayloverxx, haha!) .Just because you 'the clicker' think it is useful does not mean it is received the same way.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| I detest pole clicking. I have no idea where the sound is coming from, where the person is, how close they are or what they are going to do. Why do pole clickers think it's useful? |
Simply to let someone know you are about to pass (safely in my case) as to not startle them. Safety for all on cat tracks where there are various speeds. Dost not absolve the overtaker from their responsibilities.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| I detest pole clicking. I have no idea where the sound is coming from, where the person is, how close they are or what they are going to do. Why do pole clickers think it's useful? |
Simply to let someone know you are about to pass (safely in my case) as to not startle them. Safety for all on cat tracks where there are various speeds. Dost not absolve the overtaker from their responsibilities. |
For many the pole click itself is what startles them, combined with confusion and fear about what to do. The less experienced in particular. Why do you think it is useful to the other skier? It's not.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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I hope you guys don't also ski in circles! 
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Poster: A snowHead
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| pam w wrote: |
Hmm. That implies a very close quarters encounter and that your decision to overtake relied on the downhill skier not doing something unexpected. |
I am talking about skiing on a narrow/narrowish path, where the D/Hill skier is neatly making short turns down one side. I then go to overtake on the other side, when I see the other skier suddenly deciding to make turns where he then takes up the whole path. As I am in his blind spot, have started the overtake thinking it is safe to do so, will make my presence known (as well as slowing down further). On these paths, high speeds are not a factor.
I thought the general thrust of my post was clear - and highlighting that this situation has happened very rarely (as I try to make sure I have left enough space) - and Pole Clicking (or whatever) is a reaction of last resort.
On crowded Pistes, I ski slowly and try to be consistent and obvious with my actions....so has not been a issue.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 19-01-24 16:57; edited 4 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@Ozboy, the click startles me, quite likely startles others. How are we meant to know which side you are passing on? If you say I'm passing on the side you can hear the clicks on then thats no help at all, if I need to turn suddenly then having someone clicking behind you is avtually scary. Have you ever asked anyone? I won't be startled by someone passing safely. Just ski past if is safe. There is absolutely no reason to click poles .
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| zikomo wrote: |
| Ozboy wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| I detest pole clicking. I have no idea where the sound is coming from, where the person is, how close they are or what they are going to do. Why do pole clickers think it's useful? |
Simply to let someone know you are about to pass (safely in my case) as to not startle them. Safety for all on cat tracks where there are various speeds. Dost not absolve the overtaker from their responsibilities. |
For many the pole click itself is what startles them, combined with confusion and fear about what to do. The less experienced in particular. Why do you think it is useful to the other skier? It's not. |
This,
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
As I am in his blind spot, have started the overtake thinking it is safe to do so, will make my presence known (as well as slowing down further). On these paths, the speed is not high anyway.
I thought the general thrust of my post was clear - and highlighting that this situation has happened very rarely (as I try to make sure I have left enough space) - and Pole Clicking (or whatever) is a reaction of last resort.
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You should not need to pole click as a last resort. Just slow down even more to create a gap between you and the skier below you. They don't need to know you are there
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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It's got me thinking how big an issue this actually is.
I found this:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0020138322003564
Timeframe: 2005-2018
"A total of 30,503 collisions, involving 52,430 (85.9%) skiers and 8,576 (14.1%) snowboarders were analysed."
That's quite a lot of collisions..
I know...let's just pretend the FIS rules work, can't be improved, and teaching techniques shouldn't be updated to mitigate risk and reduce the number of collisions..
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
You should not need to pole click as a last resort. Just slow down even more to create a gap between you and the skier below you. They don't need to know you are there |
Of course you are right and it should not be needed as a last resort....2 or 3 times in 50 years, with no collisions, is not a valid excuse. 
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 19-01-24 17:17; edited 1 time in total
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Has everyone put Pyramus on ignore?
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @Ozboy, the click startles me, quite likely startles others. How are we meant to know which side you are passing on? If you say I'm passing on the side you can hear the clicks on then thats no help at all, if I need to turn suddenly then having someone clicking behind you is avtually scary. Have you ever asked anyone? I won't be startled by someone passing safely. Just ski past if is safe. There is absolutely no reason to click poles . |
This is a good point which i will consider next time. I just assumed it was the norm as it’s common and always done it - thought I was being considerate. The idea is the person being overtaken on a cattrack holds their line while I overtake safely by the edge
Last edited by After all it is free  on Fri 19-01-24 17:18; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @Ozboy, the click startles me, quite likely startles others. How are we meant to know which side you are passing on? If you say I'm passing on the side you can hear the clicks on then thats no help at all, if I need to turn suddenly then having someone clicking behind you is avtually scary. Have you ever asked anyone? I won't be startled by someone passing safely. Just ski past if is safe. There is absolutely no reason to click poles . |
This is a good point which i will consider next time. I just assumed it was the norm as it’s common and always done it - thought I was being considerate. The idea is the person being overtaken on a cattrack holds their line while I overtake safely by the edge |
Thank you
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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DP
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
You should not need to pole click as a last resort. Just slow down even more to create a gap between you and the skier below you. They don't need to know you are there |
Of course you are right and it should not be needed as a last resort....2 or 3 times in 50 years, with no collisions, is not a valid excuse. |
Do you think you would have collided those 2 or 3 times if you had not clicked?
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You know it makes sense.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| Old Fartbag wrote: |
| holidayloverxx wrote: |
You should not need to pole click as a last resort. Just slow down even more to create a gap between you and the skier below you. They don't need to know you are there |
Of course you are right and it should not be needed as a last resort....2 or 3 times in 50 years, with no collisions, is not a valid excuse. |
Do you think you would have collided those 2 or 3 times if you had not clicked? |
It was a possibility rather than a probability - so I acted on what I thought to be on the safer side.
Having returned to skiing after back surgery in around 2015, the situation hasn't arisen. Maybe I'm now a safer skier, or maybe I go in quieter weeks. If I get it wrong, I would rather let the other skier know I was there, than risk a collision. That should not be seen as me justifying it, or a sign that it is something I regularly do.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@Old Fartbag, I'll still maintain then that if a collision was a possibility you should have been able to simply slow down and avoid it.
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Old Fartbag, do you honestly think that a pole click will help in that situation? Will be understood be the skier in front, and will give them enough time to react so that your joint action avoids a collision, which as you describe is going to happen suddenly and with very little warning because the skier in front has made change in direction that you didn’t anticipate?
To be honest, I think that’s nonsense. If we’re talking relatively slow speeds on a cat track you can put in a hockey stop. If we’re talking higher speeds on an open piste a pole click isn’t going to be heard until it’s too late. If things have gone badly wrong and there’s a possibility you are going to plough in to the back of somebody at speed there no audio signal of any kind will help other than frightening the person in front to brace for impact. At that point maybe dumping your hip on to the snow might change the outcome, but it’s laughable to suggest a pole click is an action of last resort.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Fri 19-01-24 18:11; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I'll still maintain then that if a collision was a possibility you should have been able to simply slow down and avoid it. |
When I made the overtakes, in my judgement, it was safe to do so. Skiing is often about judgement - which improves with experience - and anything that involves judgement, that judgement can be wrong. I own my mistakes, learn from them and try to mitigate any damage when I do get it wrong. There have been no incidences where a collision has been a possibility in my last 10 years of ski holidays.
My posts on this thread should make it clear where I stand on this matter.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@Old Fartbag, I refer you to the post above
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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The person at the back, clearly.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ozboy wrote: |
| The idea is the person being overtaken on a cattrack holds their line while I overtake safely by the edge |
Therein lies the problem. You DO expect something of the skier in front of you. In what way is that considerate?
I suspect that pretty much all the pole clickers (or callers) actually think this too. If they are completely honest with themselves.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
@Old Fartbag, do you honestly think that a pole click will help in that situation? Will be understood be the skier in front, and will give them enough time to react so that your joint action avoids a collision, which as you describe is going to happen suddenly and with very little warning because the skier in front has made change in direction that you didn’t anticipate.
To be honest, I think that’s nonsense. If we’re talking relatively slow speeds on a cat track you can put in a hockey stop. If we’re talking higher speeds on an open piste a pole click isn’t going to be heard until it’s too late. If things have gone badly wrong and there’s a possibility you are going to plough in to the back of somebody at speed there no audio signal of any kind will help other than frightening the person in front to brace for impact. At that point maybe dumping your hip on to the snow might change the outcome, but it’s laughable to suggest a pole click is an action of last resort. |
I think when skiing fast on a wide Piste, it is completely pointless.
I also think my comment is being blown out of all proportion. I haven't used it in 10 years; used it 2 or 3 times in 50 years and on the couple of occasions I did use it, it was on a path, going relatively slowly and it did let the other skier know I was there. You seem to be ignoring 99% of the content of my other posts, which is by far the best indicator about what my position is.
By saying it's an "Action of last resort", I don't mean that it is of any use on Piste, in a high speed collision - only that I have used it so seldom and only in a situation where there was the vaguest possibility of a low speed collision. Personally, I think it can be interpreted as a bit rude and entitled, which is why I do my best to avoid that situation altogether.
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Fri 19-01-24 18:32; edited 1 time in total
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| Belch wrote: |
| zikomo wrote: |
| The pole clicking thing is also simple logic. It matters not at all whether the downhill skier is or is not aware of someone who may or may not over-take them. As the complete responsibility for doing safely rests on the uphill (over-taking) skier, and they must allow for the skier being overtaken to make any movement at all including suddenly turning, stopping or crashing. What it really means is "I am here, I want to maintain speed, please don't be startled but I want to overtake you" |
This |
Nice of a proponent of pole-clicking to admit that.
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I refer you to the post above |
And I refer you to my reply.
Please read my posts on this thread to properly understand where I'm coming from, rather than get hung up on one very seldom used action.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@Old Fartbag, I have read your posts, I understand your position. I'm not 'hung up', I just think the action, seldom or often used, is wrong. You have constantly defended your use of pole clicking, others think it's wrong on those occasions. You disagree so probably best to leave it there
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| holidayloverxx wrote: |
| @Old Fartbag, I'll still maintain then that if a collision was a possibility you should have been able to simply slow down and avoid it. |
Oh to be a perfect skier eh. We’re humans with fallibility and make errors of judgement do we not? Collisions are always a possibility with so many variables at play.
Just out of interest why is that you find pole clicking so startling and upsetting?
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads on Fri 19-01-24 18:43; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
