 Poster: A snowHead
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| PG wrote: |
No - runs are not graded according to commercial demand, easiski did not say this. Some are - and as I said those should be changed asap. |
I totally apologise to Easiski if she didn't say some pistes are graded due to marketing demands - I could have sworn she did, but I haven't time to plough back through the thread
| PG wrote: |
| I didn't say that gradient didn't present difficulty. Reread my words |
You said gradient isn't a main cause of difficulty. I disagree. For some people, their perception of the gradient - especially if unexpected - is going to scare them and freeze them up before they even get onto that bit of piste to experience the conditions. Witness that it's often easier to ski a steep slope in poor visibility because you can only concentrate on the next turn, not the "what ifs".
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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eng_ch, it can also be the case that people like to "start" the day gently. I hadone chum freak, freeze then depart the group when confronted with a gradient that was less than he had skied most of the day on, but was quite sudden, just because he didn't want to do it first run of the day. 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
I disagree that gradient doesn't present difficulty. And if a less experienced skier (however ambitious) encounters a gradient that is unexpectedly steep, in many cases it can make them freeze up so they haven't the necessary relaxation to cope with the slope well. As someone else said, it's almost a question of managing expectations. I just feel that the current bandings are just too broad
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if you want to know the gradients buy a topo map.... then you can have all of them.... every piece in gory detail...
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
You know, starts off green, goes smoothly to blue, hits a nasty sudden black pitch of about 6 feet long, inches back through red to blue and runs out gently on green back to the lift.
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Could the nasty sudden black pitch be marked with a wide brown stripe down the middle?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| the international standard way of doing things sucks. |
IYO. Sure we can add a colour or two if it makes people happy. But I doubt it'll change anything. |
I doubt that, tour operators already write up stations based on how many runs of various grades they've got. How many of the large, and now very commercial, lift companies would not resort to a bit of landscaping if they thought they were below quota for the new blue-minus and over quota for the blue-plus level?
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
| Kramer, what's the difference between finding any run easy and "believing" you find any run easy? |
When you watch some skiers come down a black run they come down with nice technique and in control, and make it look easy, others come flying down with poor technique, barely in control, or possibly not, but seem to believe that because they can keep standing up all the way down that they have skied the run well.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| eng_ch wrote: |
Nobody has suggested the topography be bullozed and changed, |
I'm afraid that's likely to be exactly the consequence though. It's already happening, it was mentioned on here sometime back that CDA at Flaine had been landscaping the mountain to make it more accessible and reduce the vagaries of the landscape.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I really don't see what the fuss about gradings is. As someone else pointed out, there is an adequate grading system: green, blue, red, black. If you are afraid that a run could be too difficult due to variables such as weather, busyness, bumpyness, icyness, "inconsistency of gradings", etc. then simply don't do it.
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I was always told it was relative within a resort - not relative to a particular face/lift - and that the concept of green= suitable for beginners, blue suitable for novices, red for advanced and black for experts was generally adhered to at least at the lower end? So if the easiest run in resort is a mogul field it wouldn't be marked green, but red...
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You know it makes sense.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
"Have you ever tried the bump run just after a competition? It's the one to the skier's left of the slalom run."
yep. 
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Thu 30-03-06 13:08; edited 1 time in total
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ajhainey wrote: |
| I was always told it was relative within a resort - not relative to a particular face/lift - and that the concept of green= suitable for beginners, blue suitable for novices, red for advanced and black for experts was generally adhered to at least at the lower end? So if the easiest run in resort is a mogul field it wouldn't be marked green, but red... |
Yes to the first bit, no to the second. If the easiest run in a resort is a steep mogul field, then it will be green.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Frosty the Snowman,
Bl00dy hell, look what you've started..!!
Have you stopped laughing yet...??
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Ray Zorro, I do understand what some others are getting at. My point is that it's part of a trend towards excessive regulatory control in life in general, where we have to have someone hold our hands even when we're doing a dangerous sport of our own free will. We will eventually end up paying for the functionaries that manage the red tape and the manpower needed to keep the infrastructure 'within accepted norms'. Actually given the way the French manage their economy, they might go for a suggestion à la DM. But don't forget who pays for it in the end!
I believe the current system, that errs on the pessimistic side - assuming that 'commercially' decided gradings are eradicated - is pretty adequate. You never hear French skiers/boarders complain for some strange reason. Maybe it's because even those who aren't living on the mountains have had lessons at some point. The 'classes de neige' school trips to the snow are all under the supervision of ESF or equivalent instructors. If more Brits had lessons they would be better equipped to recognise those slopes that they are capable of skiing and those that are still beyond them, and through instruction would make progress more quickly in the first place.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, but before anyone thinks I'm just being crass; I was pleased to be able to ski it tolerably well and turn on each bump.
It reinforced my most incredible respect for anyone who skis that sort of thing in a competitive context at any sort of pace. My impression was that there was about a 10 foot gap between each bump. Imagine the shock absorption required at speed!! It bears little resemblance to what you might imagine if all you'd done was watch the event on TV.
And I was a little tongue in cheek about Deer Valley. It's a weird place though. In the main, either you have immaculately groomed blues with the odd interspersing of easy reds - or you have the most marvellous, beautifully formed bumps fields. With no one on them. Nothing in between (hardly). Bizarre.
You may use the colour brown if that makes you happier.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
| I really don't see what the fuss about gradings is. As someone else pointed out, there is an adequate grading system: green, blue, red, black. |
!!!!! Do you think the thread would have stretched to 8 pages and counting if the grading system were generally considered adequate? Are you really suggesting that the current system is the very best that could possibly devised and there is no room for improvement?
| xyzpaul wrote: |
| If you are afraid that a run could be too difficult due to variables such as weather, busyness, bumpyness, icyness, "inconsistency of gradings", etc. then simply don't do it. |
Which means if you have come across one red that was too difficult for you, you're relegated to blues etc. We all have to learn to free-ski at some point, just like you have to learn to drive unaccompanied. What's wrong with aiding that process? I don't agree PG's logic that a slap of paint will inevitably lead to nanny-state skiing and litigation, although I appreciate the concern. If it hasn't in the US so far, it's hardly likely to in Europe.
As far as I'm concerned, the conditions that might pertain on any given day are a separate issue and part of learning mountaincraft - I'm just talking about the constants of gradient and width, not the variables
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JT, I haven't posted much but do seem to get the feeling that the good and confident skiers think it is a soft and needless option, but that the less experienced and more timid skiers are in favour.
Perhaps instead of adverts on the back of piste maps the more interesting or difficult runs could be listed along with a brief discription. e.g. A challenging run through the trees, but dont be decieved by the top section as there are 3 very steep sections that can suffer from ice. OR Black but no very difficult sections, usually keeps snow well.
Another option would be the skiers version of a Golf course guide. Every great golf course in this country will have its own course guide for sale in the pro shop. Anyone seen such a thing readily available in a ski resort?
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| Quote: |
| Which means if you have come across one red that was too difficult for you, you're relegated to blues etc. That's a good way to progress - not. |
As easiski wrote (and told me during lessons) the best place to learn to ski a red properly is on a blue or a green. Or words to that effect. She's not alone - several instructors have told me more or less the same thing.
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Frosty the Snowman, take your point, but perhaps the good/confident skiers feel that way because they've been through the learning process, had instruction, and understand that graduated instruction and learning is better than being chucked in the deep end?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| PG wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Which means if you have come across one red that was too difficult for you, you're relegated to blues etc. That's a good way to progress - not. |
As easiski wrote (and told me during lessons) the best place to learn to ski a red properly is on a blue or a green. Or words to that effect. She's not alone - several instructors have told me more or less the same thing. |
I agree with you which is why I edited my post. The problem lies with free skiing I think, not lessons. And slopes that are new to you. I think we agree lessons are fairly essential - but most people can't afford all-day lessons.
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PG, You may not agree that a larger number of colours would be useful, but many others do, including easiski. We could carry this discussion on until the fat lady sings but we wouldn't want that as I don't think that IncogSkiSno has a particularly nice voice. Maybe we shall just have to agree to disagree.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
Another option would be the skiers version of a Golf course guide. Every great golf course in this country will have its own course guide for sale in the pro shop. Anyone seen such a thing readily available in a ski resort? |
I like this idea. People that visit a different resorts each time they ski would be able to work out instantly where to ski on the first day, and where to avoid through the week if you have a mixed ability group. I could see that being very helpful, but to be honest any more information would be helpful for me.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Ray Zorro, fair enough. I didn't say that it wouldn't be useful - just that it's usefulness is offset by a number of negatives. Conditions can change radically, even day to day through the season, and gradings are a rough guide, not some bible of precise difficulty. And whether 'many' people agree I would like to see reflected in an inclusive poll - not a mainly British one, and not one where the majority expressing a favourable view consist mainly of those who have limited experience of the mountains and may be a little ill-equipped to judge how the mountains could/should be managed safely.
I'll ask the piste security director at Les Arcs for his opinion - I'll be seeing him in a couple of days.
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| Quote: |
I'll ask the piste security director at Les Arcs for his opinion - I'll be seeing him in a couple of days.
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That would be excellent. Great to get the view of such a person. Is he a nervous novice . No seriously i think his views would be a excellent contibution to the debate.
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You know it makes sense.
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Frosty the Snowman,
I kind of think its overkill. The mountains are all different and the weather conditions make that even more variable. A steep but not bumpy black can be easier than a bumpy ridden icy blue etc etc. We all know that. I just think that you build up a level of experience and then you test it out on any given day. I also think getting the technique right on a blue only helps to a certain point, it might get your skiing to be able to cope there but you have introduced others things like ice and steepness. You need to know what you have works in that situation and you might need to adjust various bits of your skiing. If you can't do this, you probably shouldn't be on that run at that time.
You can have all the written aides you like and you will still get people wanting the piste in better nick. I remain firmly in the camp of, learn to ski the mountain as it is. Its a wild enviroment and it should stay that way as much as possible IMV.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Without wishing to be flippant, I think it would be fair to say we've not heard the French complaining about the grading system because this is an English-language board and the majority of Brits don't have enough French to ask them when there (and typically even less German for Switzerland and Austria). Also it's precisely the people with less experience, who may not have started learning to ski until well into adulthood, who might need the help - not the ones who've been skiing since before they could walk. Given how many Brits frequent the major resorts, I suspect one that did try an experiment with more info might find the costs offset by increased revenue?
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Poster: A snowHead
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JT, Perhaps. There are however a few climbers on this site can they tell us how different climbs are rated. Do they have 4 colours. A bit of an over dramatic comparison I know, but I'm sure you can see where I am going
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I think the variation in difficulty due to changing snow conditions is at least as great as the variation in difficulty from one grade of piste to another. This, in my opinion, makes a more finely tuned grading system more or less impossible. How can you more precisely summarise the difficulty of a piste, if that difficulty changes on a day-by-day, week-by-week basis?
I can't imagine a situation where paper-based piste maps were banned and electronic information boards conveyed the message that "today Piste X is graded black (1st Dan), but by the end of the week it will probably be graded black (2nd Dan)". Perhaps it would be better if skiers and boarders understood that the piste grading system is a broad indicator only, rather than a precision instrument?
When was the piste grading system invented? What did skiers do before piste difficulty was summarised by a simple colour grading system?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Frosty the Snowman,
It is fair enough to bring that into the equation but does their grading have to cope with daily changable weather conditions?
I think they just mark the climb by a degree of technical difficulty. You could side-slip an icy slope...!! Maybe that is what more people need to learn, I've always said its a very very important skill. If you have a great side-slip technique you can go just about anywhere, if you haven't, you can't...!!
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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eng_ch, (I started skiing when I was 41, by the way). The Brits represent one in five of snowsport practitioners on French slopes. And the reason I mentioned the lack of complaints was because I've been a member of the French equivalent of snowHeads, Skipass (several times the membership of SnowHeads) for a number of years, and the main clamouring is in the opposite direction, in threads such as this - that mainly manifest a dread of increasingly homogenised, motorway-pisted resorts.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Ray Zorro wrote: |
| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
Another option would be the skiers version of a Golf course guide. Every great golf course in this country will have its own course guide for sale in the pro shop. Anyone seen such a thing readily available in a ski resort? |
I like this idea. People that visit a different resorts each time they ski would be able to work out instantly where to ski on the first day, and where to avoid through the week if you have a mixed ability group. I could see that being very helpful, but to be honest any more information would be helpful for me. |
How about better than a guide book, having an actual GUIDE?
Say a resort was to offer free season passes to locals who would give 1 day a week to free guiding, so a tourist arrives in town, and can join in a half day guided tour of the slopes, whether it be for beginners, intermediates, advanced, experts... and that these guides would take people in small groups to show them the resort.
The resort has the advantage of having fewer people getting lost or into difficulty, the guide gets a free lift pass, and the punters get to see the resort (and maybe bits of it they wouldn't have found on their own)
I realise nay sayers may claim this opens the resort up to litigation, because they are offering a guide, but it is safer that way than just handing over a piste map.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| PG wrote: |
Ray Zorro, fair enough. I didn't say that it wouldn't be useful - just that it's usefulness is offset by a number of negatives. Conditions can change radically, even day to day through the season, and gradings are a rough guide, not some bible of precise difficulty. And whether 'many' people agree I would like to see reflected in an inclusive poll - not a mainly British one, and not one where the majority expressing a favourable view consist mainly of those who have limited experience of the mountains and may be a little ill-equipped to judge how the mountains could/should be managed safely.
I'll ask the piste security director at Les Arcs for his opinion - I'll be seeing him in a couple of days. |
I suppose its usefulness could be judged by how well it works in countries that currently have more than 4 designations, and have been using them for many years. I believe I referred to that fact in earlier posts.
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| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
How can you more precisely summarise the difficulty of a piste, if that difficulty changes on a day-by-day, week-by-week basis?
I can't imagine a situation where paper-based piste maps were banned and electronic information boards conveyed the message that "today Piste X is graded black (1st Dan) |
Ah, you mean like the idea I mentioned earlier - daily printed piste maps which contain grooming information, overnight snow fall, a forecast for the day, and recommended runs?
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| When was the piste grading system invented? |
Which system? (not all continents use the same system!!!)
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Don't some countries just have three colour gradings? I'm thinking of Austria - don't recall 'green' pistes there, but I might be wrong..
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Its easy..
Don't go near a black run if you can't traverse a 35 degree slope which might be 30 ft wide. If you can't get a way to turn there in icy conditions there is no way you are upto black runs. Now, of course, not all black runs are like that but just to be safe, you're not upto it...!!
How much namby-pambying do we need ?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
How can you more precisely summarise the difficulty of a piste, if that difficulty changes on a day-by-day, week-by-week basis?
I can't imagine a situation where paper-based piste maps were banned and electronic information boards conveyed the message that "today Piste X is graded black (1st Dan) |
Ah, you mean like the idea I mentioned earlier - daily printed piste maps which contain grooming information, overnight snow fall, a forecast for the day, and recommended runs?
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A number of resorts already do something like this. Do any of them change the grading of a piste? For example, Red to black, or single diamond to double diamond?
| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| rob@rar.org.uk wrote: |
| When was the piste grading system invented? |
Which system? (not all continents use the same system!!!) |
There are different systems? You mean that some resorts don't use colours and/or symbols to grade their pistes? What do they use? Actual slope angles? The average height of the bumps? I'm intrigued...
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