Snow + Rock : transmit only avalanche beacons!

A snowHead

Might be useful for adults or kids lost in a white out on a piste that has been closed due to a snowstorm ? Also what about in the US where the off-piste is inbounds ?

A snowHead

meh, Millions of people have bought and wear recco, this is a similar product only now the general public wearing search Arva's can join in the search. People wear helmets and don't fall over, people buy insurance, and don't crash cars, people smoke cigarettes, despite their warning. The only thing that this product needs id a warning on the packaging stating "send only" device, can not be used for searching victims. It's then upto whoever buys it to take some personal responsibility. The world's gone tits.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

^ you are confusing the issue of 'freedom of choice' vs. 'cr@p' product.

for example : people should be allowed to smoke cigarettes if they choose - however that still doesn't make it a healthy thing to do.....

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I believe my following statement would normally close the thread, but "That's a bit Hitleresque, non". Freedom of choice, cigarettes are cr@p products.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

Nah they are not, they are very good at doing what they do.

Not sure we can go around deciding what is crap and asking it to be withdrawn though. We have markets to do that for us.

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Haggis_Trap, Why is it a cr@p product? Because you (and others) say so? Because it doesn't follow your personal ethos?

If it doesn't do what it says it does i.e. transmit a signal detectable by other fully functioned detectors, then it'd be a cr@p product - Nothing suggests this is anything other than a transmitter device.

After all it is free

cambridgeski, I was just wondering why do you think that a younger person would be capable of switching your device off but not switching a beacon to seach (or to off if you don't want to have them searching themselvs?)

Personally, I cannot see why one would be easier than the other, if that is the case, then we are simply talking about economics. So for an extra £25 you can buy a beacon, that is full tested and approved (by the revelent bodies) that will be of use in a search situation. While it is a personal situation, and I do not have any kids myself, I would spend the extra £25 for my dog (although he does struggle to use buttons, due to the lack of thumbs.)

Dublinfella, Switching a beacon to search is nothing, organising and participating in a search party is much more important, use of probe, traverse debris line, last point seen, equipment trail, all need to be exicuted perfectly. Add the stress of saving a life and the products become very different things.

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CH2O, I understand that. I am just wondering why [b[cambridgeski[/b] insists that not having to turn the snowbe thing to search is an added advantage to younger people? If a slide does happen, they will have to turn it off, so is there a huge difference between turning it off and turning it to seach? The answer is not on my beacon. Thus one of the products main selling points is nullified. Wheather a child is cabable of using the beacon in a search or be involved in a search is a whole other debate, of which, I am sure, we could get up to at least 12 pages.

Simply put: why go a snobe when you go from a beacon at slightly more money and a fraction of the price of a ski holiday?

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CH2O, yer but a Recco reflector costs bug all, this is a pisstaking manner in which to extract money from people for a device more useless than a chocolate teapot. Transceivers already exist and if people want protection from on piste avalanches they can spend money on them for not very much more than the cost of this device. I don't see a problem with the manufacturer of safety product having to prove that it is actually useful and contributes meaningfully to personal safety. Personal responsibility is a wonderful thing but there is a reason regulation exists and it is in part to stop unscrupulous people selling you dangerous products or ones not fit for purpose. For example real transceivers have to meet some quality requirements, this product doesn't even though it claims to meet one of them which is only saying that people can build radio devices for use in emergencies.

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meh, If I was near an avalanche zone and my boy wasn't caught up, I wouldn't ask him to turn off his beacon, i'd simply ski with him to safety and return later if all circumstances permitted.

You know it makes sense.

Here's my overall take CSS devised a product for one purpose - to provide a measure of avy safety for kids on & offpiste with the primary driver being cost of product. As a result search was excluded from functionality.

Extremely negative feedback resulted at which time frantic repositioning was done to make it a "piste only" device. As the development was in this order there was no proven need for this specific device & CSS is still trying to backfill on this point.

Nebulous statements about informing and providing options sound like someone who hasn't got a real USP or can't admit that there isn't a real need or that creating that need relies on creating the perception of risks that don't really exist.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

fatbob, rather elegantly summarized.

A snowHead

CH2O, leaving anyone caught by the avalanche to die?

A snowHead

Hypothetically, if a fully functioning transceiver was cheap enough (say £10 ish) so that everybody could afford one and quite literally everybody skied with one then would that be a problem?

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

Elston, given the way that they currently work - this would be a nightmare. Everyone nearby would be pinging away madly - unless they knew a search was in progress and also understood the importance of switching off their transmitter. Go and have a play in an Arva park near a piste and you'll soon understand the problem Wink

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Elston, if I only ever skied on piste, and took ski holidays, and didn't already have a fully functional device why would I want to spend £10 extra per trip (as invariably they'd be put in a safe place) for effectively zero additional security/safety?

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

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Something to consider, wich was touched upon in previous discussions about sno-be or whatever it's known as now.

As it's not a transceiver, it is not required to meet the relevant CE standards. While it can transmit a compatible signal, and the signal itself may be "to standard", there's no mention of the physical device itself being tested to meet the relevant standard.

So it might well transmit a square wave on the relevant frequency, but there are no reassurances that it'll work after being subject to extreme cold, wet, vibration, drops, have sufficient battery life nor other things that a transceiver MUST deal with before they can be marketed for sale.

Unless all those things can be met and proven it's suitability, even for the purpose for which it is advertised, is in question.

Without a standard for a transmit only device, which I don't see coming any time soon, you only have the word of the manufacturer that this "life saving device" will work.

Consider the nature of the company behind it, and how they have dodged the subject, changed name and purpose of the product, even the country in which it is based. "Integrity" isn't a word that springs to mind

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Elston, i am going to install machines at Gatwick selling crap people don't need.

Ooops, maybe that market is a little oversaturated... Crying or Very sad

After all it is free

feef, all electronic equipment must be tested for electromagnetic compatibility and CE marked before it is put onto the European market. Any wireless transmitting device will have to satisfy additional requirements which, in this case, are probably covered by ETSI EN 300 718. It is illegal to sell equipment that has not been properly approved and marked.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electromagnetic_compatibility
http://www.etsi.org/technologies-clusters/technologies/radio/avalanche-beacons

altis, I'm not talking about the signal transmission. I talking about the additional physical tests that transceivers undergo to ensure they can continue to transmit while buried under snow, soaked through, bumped about and generally abused in the rough and tumble of a slide.

It's those physical tests that I'm referring to, not, as I said, that it can transmit the correct signal

The CE test for transceivers is more than just the signal.

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So, Ive been sitting here for some time reading all this. While there are some valid questions and good points here, can I ask what is the problem with a emiter that parents can put on their kids as an extra form of safety? Like Recco! Which is rarley used for finding a person, more for finding body.

To make a few things clear here.

Avalanches DO go across pistes. I´ve seen many over the years.

http://youtube.com/v/Urge2E3F_Lc

Rare but proof!

People who wear your standard receivers DO ski on piste, Not many of us are that lucky to never ski on piste. We have to cross them and use them at some point. We do not only ski off piste or no where near the piste. The amount of people on the mountain means there is a higher chance of having more people near an on piste slide than an off piste one.

The chance of no one being in the area without a transceiver, on a day where there is avalanche danger is very low. Any self respecting ski bum/guide/instructor, lifty, knowledgeable tourist (this includes a massive % of you guys who are arguing this) is wearing one. How many of you ski with one on all the time, in your bag or about your person?

As long as a slide area is managed properly, as all top level ski teachers have training in, a search can be made quickly and effectively, stopping many people arriving at the scene sending out signals and making sure they turn them to receive.

Originally, like most of you I did not agree with the product and was very skeptical on first hearing about it. I did some research and immediately saw "We do not manufacture or sell equipment for off-piste use. Our on-piste emitter is for use on marked ski runs, in-resort only. It is not suitable for off-piste skiing or other alpine pursuits in the backcountry." This is important and there for people to make a decision if they want to use it or not.

There has been talk of what if the parents are buried and the kids are just standing buy with a emitter and cannot search. Well, better that the parent has one than not at all. And to make something very clear here, for those of you how have ever had to dig someone out of an avalanche, be it someone you may or may not know. At the point of finding the signal, you do not even know who it is you are digging out. If it is your parent, child, boyfriend Et.c How do you think you will react?

It is not for children. Most adults collaps in panic. trust me, I know. So if the situation arose that the parents were to be buried and the kids are for some reason saved, (Parents do not just ski off and leave the kids behind) I cannot see a child calmly pulling out a receiver and conducting a search! If they are wearing an emitter, at least someone else can find them.

CSS clearly state what the product is. They make no attempt to fool or make people think that it is anything other than that. It is not a crap product. It is another product to make the mountains a safer place.

Is the Barryvox Element any different? A cheaper, lower tech version of the Pulse. Anyone remember that PEIPS used to make an emitter? (if anyone has said, this, I have missed it) but it was not marketed in the same way. It was used by some guides for their clients.

How many of you guys ski with a Pulse, Ortovox, Pieps Et.c and do not have a full back pack with shovel and probe?

Would I put on my kid? After all the arguments here and giving this product more thought then I thought I ever would. Yes I would! I live, work and ski in the mountains. The mountains can be a dangerous place. If you do not want to put one on your kid, that is up to you. Every little helps.

A family of 4 can add a little extra saftey to themselves for around 200 quid instead of 2 grand. Whats wrong with that?

Though please continue to boycott Snow and Rock in general. They are poo-poo!

My2c.

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soulskier, are you Mrs Aubrey-Robson? Puzzled

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Soulskier, I personally can't stand this device. It is a total pile of snake oil. I don't feel strongly enough to type a dissertation on it though. But you seem to, for a shoddy piece of crap? Something suss? CG might suggest kickbacks, but then again he always does.

soulskier, Several points:

1. What 4 transceivers are you buying that cost £2K or £500 each?

2. How many piste avalanche rescues have you been involved with, you claim to have witnessed many?

3. You state that 'Most adults collapse in panic' and yet 'all top level ski teachers have training in, a search can be made quickly and effectively' are you suggesting that all top level ski instructors will react well to a life or death situation?

Your arguments are so ill considered as to be ridiculous.

I am a great fan of free markets, so if anyone is stupid enough to think this product is worth their money then fair play to them, but you are 'scaremongering' by making a claim that on piste avalanches post such a risk that they require mitigation.

You know it makes sense.

Mcspreader.

I think the 7 previous pages of the same people writing the same thing is feeling strongly about it. Asking to Boycott a shop is feeling strongly about it. I was just making some valid argument, which excuse me if I am wrong, is that not what forums are about? If you do not like the way forums work, then don´t post in or read them.

Airbornebadger.

Ill anse you quesitons though you have not answered mine.

Sorry, I live in Norway. I am not well versed in the prices of ski stuff in the UK. They are around 500 pounds each here. I do not know the price in the UK. Sorry for that! How much are they? More than 50 - 60 pounds I know. Its still cheaper!

I have been involved in searching in 1. 3 massive slides in Verbier that came down the shoots going across 2 or 3 transport slopes in Verbier from Mont Fort back to verbier close to Cabin du Mont Fort. The 3rd one came down later once the search was under way. If it was not for the great skill of the helicopter pilot, and luck that people ran for their lives there would have been a helicopter and many rescuers caught up in it as well. No one was caught, and it was a miracle that it was not. It did not take long for people to get there just skiing around or seeing it from afar. I saw one in Cervinia where 2 snowboarders set one off, got caught but were left on the top. The ski patrol stopped them and they got arrested for attempted murder. A common thing in Italy!!! Sadly I have actually set one off that went across a slope in Verbier down from Mont Gele down the Grand Couloir. It was 24th Dec and the psite was packed but luckily no one was hit. Nothing I am at all proud of, but you asked.

I have seen people lose it in a search situation. My brother lost control when we thought his GF was caught and buried. I saw others just standing and looking in disbelief unable to move. I watched well trained people with avalanche equipment struggle to come to terms with it as they had not used it in a real life situation. People who normally are strong needing direction and/or help to proceed with the search. ISIA ski teachers are not all bullet proof, but we have training and like any training, that can kick in when needs must. Kids do not and are not emotionally equipt for such an event. That I can assure you.

There is no scaremongering going on here. I am like everyone else here, making my point.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

soulskier, a point made with anecdote which as any even slightly scientific mind would tell you is very poor data because it tells you nothing other than these incidents do happen. That was a fact never in dispute. It is however incredibly rare hence why this device is scaremongering to sell its product.

You claim to have read everything but obviously have skipped huge chunks as it's explained several different ways on the previous two pages the shortcomings of this product. Not only that but you seem ignorant of the products history where it was marketed under a different brand name as an off piste product. All of this has been explained in depth so you might want to take a glance back to avoid retreading the same ground, again.

A snowHead

soulskier, I've only been involved with one avalanche rescue, which was at the beginning of the season in Tignes.

Out of the 200 or so helping with the searh, noone collapsed in panic (except the chap who was responsible fir the group that were caught).
All of those in the group who triggered or were caught in the avalanche were trainee instructors who all had (or at least had access to) transceivers, and would have known how to use them, but were not wearing them at the time.

To continue the argument about it's use on piste, as a transceiver isn't THAT much more expensive, would it not be a reasonably expectation that even if the parent of a child caught in a piste slide doesn't know how to use a transceiver, someone else in the vicinity who hasn't brought one DOES know.

If I was to come upon a slide and I wasn't wearing mine, the first thing I'd ask was if anyone had a transceiver. If all the answers are "no, only trasmitters" then despite the fact I could help, I would be unable to help because they wanted to save a few quid. I have things in my first aid kit that I know I would not be comfortable using, but I carry them anyway, as there's a good chance that someone else would be able to use them.

Personally, my rucksack is packed no differently day to day, I might change the chocolate from plain to milk with salt-caramel, I may or may not put my skins in, but apart from that I'll always have a probe, shovel and transceiver. I even have a Peips Backup but that's a bit belt-and-braces.

I don't dispute that wearing a device that transmits while skiing on piste is a good idea. I do dispute that wearing a device that ONLY transmits while skiing on piste is a good idea.

A snowHead

Soul Skier : IMHO the family would be better spending their £50 on a probe + shovel than just a transit only beacon. This would give them some small chance of locating and rescuing any victim who was close to the surface (instead of waiting 10-15 mins for rescue services to be alerted and arrive to the site).

A transmit only beacon will be no better than RECCO has been in the past : good for finding dead people!

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

snowball, My responsibility would first lie with my son, his safety would come before any other, Darwin is his name, survival of the fittest is my game.

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soulskier, all fair points. Of course, not everyone will agree with them (and I have previously made it clear that I am somewhat sceptical of this device) but that is unavoidable. Nevertheless, your points should provoke thought and (like contrary viewpoints) should be treated with respect. It would be a nicer world if those whose immediate reaction has been to dismiss what you say out of hand (mentioning no names, meh, stiv24) might just show a little more courtesy to opposing points of view.

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

DT68, I didn't dismiss his points out of hand but gave a considered response to some of it and suggested that he might read the last couple of pages as they answer in detail some of the points he raised.

For someone that complains about politeness you are a bit of a hypocrite to be so impolite as to misrepresent what someone actually said.

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^ We are on the same page.
The reason that rescuers in large ski resorts have RECCO systems is that it allows them to search a wide area very quickly from a helicopter.
However even that capability hasn't saved very many lives.

After all it is free

feef, it's not even forcing awareness on people, it's scaremongering about the risk level of that particular danger, if the facts were presented truthfully then they wouldn't sell any product.

cambridgeski,

You are definitely scaremongering. You are using an event of very low probability to sell a product which is virtually useless.
But worse than that - if your product enters the skiing ecosystem it is likely to kill people.

What will happen is that people will start buying them and using them (regardless of your warnings) for kids or teenagers going off-piste. This will lead them in to terrain where they might not have been without being able to perform companion rescue. Some people - sooner or later - will adjust their risk analysis to take into account the possibility that they/their nearest and dearest will be rescued if bad stuff happens...

I would be happy to see your product sold widely IF and ONLY IF -

1) You put on the package and publicity in large letters the cost per piste-skier life potentially saved measured in micromorts , given the low background chance of on-piste avalanche, the likelihood that it will be at least 10 mins before ski-patrol arrives, and the chances they will die through trauma if buried in any case.

2) You put on the package that if you buy it for someone who may use it off piste, they may kill their friends as a result.

But you won't.

I think this is a selfish and stupid business you are in. I don't know how you can look in a mirror.

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Do you think he is coming back? It was good PR for him to arrive on the scene in the first place. It doesn't say much for his confidence in his product if he disappears into the woodwork because he was getting a hard time. I think if is was a good product it should be able to stand up to scrutiny. Does that, in itself, answer the question?

Help!!

Snow + Rock : transmit only avalanche beacons!

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