 Poster: A snowHead
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I appreciate that it wont apply to all locations, in particular the Dolomites where transfers are longer. I am not saying YOU have to do it. Just that I would be interested in seeing this type of thing offered more often by TOs in general (such as the larger ones who go to numerous resorts all over the Alps). Does everyone think I'm nuts, or just Wayne?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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carettam, we did exactly that on a Crystal holiday to La Plagne several years ago. Our outbound flight was am, our return flight from Chambery early evening. We packed up, went skiing on empty slopes, had a lovely lunch in a nice restaurant, then returned to collect our luggage and board the coach. We enjoyed it so much, that when we came to book the following year, and the flight times had changed to make it an impossibility, we drove there to get the extra skiing time.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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carettam, there are operators who do that sort of flexible trip at the moment. Your average skier can't afford them/doesn't want to pay the extra.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="Shimmy Alcott"]
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It was booked directly with First Choice over the phone. It was the year that First Choice and Crystal "merged" so I had two booking references etc. You are right to be concerned about not building on the history of your customers. My frustration comes from being a very good customer. Never complains, never needs to bother the reps, pretty laid back so I just enjoy my holiday etc etc added to that I was giving your company a whole lot of money. The year of this mess up I already had two other holidays booked with you. Another skiing one - at around £5k and a summer holiday at around £3k - add that to the £11k for the "disaster" booking and I'd put almost £20k of business in your direction in one year. If you valued your previous customers you should have known a) this woman spends a lot of money with us and b) she never causes us any bother, as a result of which your company might have treated me better following my problems. |
Ouch, that's hit home. Clearly it's a little bit pointless me responding to your original situation. That's all in the past now. Please accept my sincere apologies for what happened however.
To pick up on your point about "valuing previous customers" - it is not that we in Ski don't *value* custom, far from it!
It is more that historically (and I'm talking about 10-15 years here) the industry as a whole has not put a great deal of thought into how to manage customer relationships at scale. As a result, most of the technology that supports this sort of thing just isn't there for tour operators. Without the infrastructure in place it's almost impossible to manage.
Infrastructure costs money, and you're back to the high risk, low margin business model again. Deciding where to invest is a major headache. Most tour ops you've heard of will be trying to work out ways to work around their IT systems to scale and improve customer service without increasing overall cost. Despite what you may think there are not huge pots of cash to play with.
Having said that, I don't expect pity. For people like you we need to work all the harder to convince you that what we do has a certain value to it, and is unique in its own way. That's why we're trying to be a bit more open with people and allow anybody to ask questions etc.
Hope that helps or at least explains a little anyway.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Simon Cross, perhaps you should get in touch with shimmy and offer her a super duper discount for next season's trip!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Boredsurfing wrote: |
| La Plagne has 70% French visitors. Of the 30% left 17% are from the UK. (Probably less last season) I suggest that there would be ski resorts without the Brits, in fact I believe if one looks closely there are French Swiss and Austrian resorts with next to no Brits visiting them. |
Sorry to be so dense but won't most of the visitors be driving there then? Do they all love driving on a weekend and get stuck in jams for hours? Surely there must be a market for accommodation mid week, even discounting the English skiers?
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It is more that historically (and I'm talking about 10-15 years here) the industry as a whole has not put a great deal of thought into how to manage customer relationships at scale. As a result, most of the technology that supports this sort of thing just isn't there for tour operators
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Really? Even my local independent coffee shop (total of two shops) has a swipe card customer loyalty scheme.
I know virtually nothing about technology though.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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maggi, if you do weekend to weekend you use five days of your holiday allowance to get nine days off.
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Infrastructure costs money, and you're back to the high risk, low margin business model again. Deciding where to invest is a major headache. Most tour ops you've heard of will be trying to work out ways to work around their IT systems to scale and improve customer service without increasing overall cost. Despite what you may think there are not huge pots of cash to play with.
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Agreed, but some operators appear to be ahead of the game when it comes to managing both their clients' expectations and in responding to their feedback. Neilsons Beach operation have almost nothing but happy customers if their return rate and comments on their forums are anything to go by. I appreciate that their operation is tiny compared to other companies (and their own) ski operations, but what keeps their clients a happy bunch is communication and a willingness to deal with problems quickly.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Ghost Dog wrote: |
| what keeps clients happy is communication and a willingness to deal with problems quickly. |
Agreed. Which is why I'm on this forum as I mentioned, and why we're operating in all these new-fangled channels like Facebook, Twitter etc.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Shimmy Alcott wrote: |
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It is more that historically (and I'm talking about 10-15 years here) the industry as a whole has not put a great deal of thought into how to manage customer relationships at scale. As a result, most of the technology that supports this sort of thing just isn't there for tour operators
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Really? Even my local independent coffee shop (total of two shops) has a swipe card customer loyalty scheme.
I know virtually nothing about technology though. |
Hi Shimmy
It would be much easier for the coffee guys as I would imagine they have a (more or less) blank sheet of paper to start from, relatively small scale and the ability to choose from a wide range of vendors.
For us (and most tour operators of a certain scale), we have hundreds of thousands of passengers (customers), legacy systems from the 70s to integrate with and a narrow set of vendors.
It's sad but true I'm afraid.
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maggi,
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Boredsurfing wrote:
La Plagne has 70% French visitors. Of the 30% left 17% are from the UK. (Probably less last season) I suggest that there would be ski resorts without the Brits, in fact I believe if one looks closely there are French Swiss and Austrian resorts with next to no Brits visiting them.
Sorry to be so dense but won't most of the visitors be driving there then? Do they all love driving on a weekend and get stuck in jams for hours? Surely there must be a market for accommodation mid week, even discounting the English skiers?
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There is no real financial incentive for the French to offer mid week bookings. As most of their visitors drive to the resort, it does not matter what day of the week you drive, the cost is the same.
For UK skiers it can make a massive financial difference, the cost of flights are usually far higher for weekend than midweek flights, so there is some incentive to offer midweek bookings.
A lot of the local people in our resort who clean the apartments, welcome visitors etc. on a Saturday work for the rest of the week either on the lifts, instructing etc. Saturday is usually very quiet on the slopes so the staffing levels are reduced, most ski schools only offer private lessons on a Saturday and a few of the lifts can be closed.
Because of this it can be very difficult to find somebody available during the week to offer a cleaning / keyholding service.
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You know it makes sense.
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Lizzard, spot on! - I have often asked our daughter who uses our chalet with friends if they wouldn't prefer to travel mid-week and the answer always is that it gives them more days away with
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five days of your holiday allowance to get nine days off.
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and asking people who have rented in the past they came up with similar answers.
And we do have a breadmaker now so just occasionally nip out for croissants - usually if we have friends staying who like the 'French experience'
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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OK, all, reasonable explanations but I still think it's weird!
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Poster: A snowHead
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maggi, what's weird about making the most of your paid holiday? Entirely normal, I'd have thought. 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Simon Cross, I do appreciate your scale but have a look how the team at Silver Ski manage their customer loyalty (apart from a rather nice discount!) Twice I have dined with the Managing Director when he has 'popped in' to randomley visit his chalets particularly those with returning guests, go on you know you deserve several long weekends to sample the product first hand. Hey, you could even feature on that Undercover Boss programme 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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making the most of your paid holiday would involve skiing from Saturday morning to sunday evening -> 9 days' skiing for 5 days leave. this would involve at least 8 nights' accommodation which would send Wayne into a tizzy 
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I think "the French" do actually have some scope to think a bit more creatively about how to maximise their sales of accommodation - in our area the apartments are massively under-utilised outside those peak weeks and hence rents are often very low (super piste-side, modern, well equipped, 2 bedroom apartments for £350 a week). OK, weekend/weekend holidays make efficient use of scarce leave time, but so do long weekends, or days tagged on to "faire le pont" with weekends. Fly out Thursday evening, back late Tuesday evening - 4 days skiing for 2 days off (a better ratio than 6 days skiing for 5 days off, the standard fare) Some resorts are already thinking a bit about elasticity of demand on lift passes (e.g. cheap day on Saturday, early and late season discounts, etc
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Well I asked three questions on Crystal's FB site and got responses within 24 hours.
1. I posted a further query to another questioner's submission concerning ski/boot carriage. Apparently even if you pay for ski carriage, your ski boots must be carried in the hold and counted as part of your 20Kg hold baggage allowance.
2. I asked for the specific location of 2 chalets, one in AdH and one in LDA. These weren't empty questions as I am looking for accommodation for 29/1 in AdH (which will have to be a late booking at a price I can afford) and for 19/3 in LDA for the Cautious to Confident week. I am not sure whether to go with DIY or TO for either/both. In both cases I am keen to have easy access from the transfer vehicle with luggage and to/from the piste/lifts. The response to these was to post very helpful detailed maps of the resorts with each of Crystal's accommodations marked with a number - in each case they told me which number related to the chalet I'd asked about but not any others, so if I want to consider a different place I'll have to ask again. Why couldn't they simply publish such map on the website with a full key for each resort??
At present, my thoughts are leaning towards a late booked chalet with SkiWorld for AdH (their prices tumble well as time goes on) and perhaps the Aalborg Hotel with Neilson for LDA as its location is very good and the price seems fair. I am considering a privately booked chalet near there as an alternative.
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I'm with Carettam regarding the option of getting in extra days skiing without needing more nights of accommodation. As a teacher I have to travel at the most expensive & busiest weeks of the year so to be able to ski on one, or both, of the "extra" days at either end of the holiday makes a big difference to the amount of skiing we get per £ spent on accommodation. Skiing on the quieter "transfer days" is also a real bonus. Recently we've also found we can DIY these busy weeks cheaper than we can get a TO deal which is a mojor consideration when the cost of your ski holiday is several times what it would be if you didn't have to holiday in school holidays (BEFORE anyone starts, I'm NOT complaining about the length of school holidays).
I understand why big TOs don't offer flexibility allowing for the extra days skiing at each end of the holiday, I understand why the school holiday weeks are so busy & so expensive & I understand why the TOs don't offer much (if any) money off a holiday if you choose to self-drive. I have nothing against TOs & have had some enjoyable holidays with them, however, recently we've found for value for money, DIY suits us better.
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I'm getting 7 days skiing in at St Anton next half term. 7 nights in resorts, ski Saturday, train back to Zurich, overnight in town and Sunday sightseeing and flight home Sunday evening. DIY obviously.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Why couldn't they simply publish such map on the website with a full key for each resort??
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A very good question. and if they can provide such helpful detailed information (as described earlier on in this thread) once people have booked, I fail to see why the whole lot can't be available to all. sure, it takes resources to collect the info and keep it up to date but, having committed those resources, why not make it freely available on the website. That kind of reticence does give rise to a certain degree of suspicion.
There's quite a lot of interest on snowheads in ski weekends, given that leave is a scarce commodity for so many people. there are some specialist providers but they're few and far between, limited choice, expensive. Difficult to believe there isn't a demand out there for more readily available ski weekends - I understand that this market is much more developed in North America, but possibly a lot of people drive there, making the logistics easier. But the "ski weekend" market is probably fairly affluent - cash rich/time poor. A market niche waiting to be exploited?
A lot of holiday cottage firms offer flexible timings out of peak holiday times. I rented a lovely big house in Dorset a couple of years ago for a family party. I booked a long weekend, but the same property was available for "mid week breaks" - very reasonable prices, given the size and location of the place. In peak August weeks it's prohibitive.
The French resorts seem to be particularly inflexible - Francophone holiday habits are hard to fathom. We have friends (Belgian/French) who retired a couple of years ago and own their own apartment and still find it hard to shake the "come and go on Saturday" habit.  That frenzied and dangerous rush from the north of France down the major holiday arteries in August and February just seems to be part of a collective psyche difficult for others to understand.
So maybe this flexi-revolution will have to start somewhere else?
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| Butterfly wrote: |
| Why couldn't they simply publish such map on the website with a full key for each resort?? |
I'm glad that it appears the service we're providing appeared to answer your immediate questions.
Regarding the question posed above. The map posted was from the resort, not from a Crystal brochure. It is not strictly "our information", and I doubt we stock all of the accommodation listed in the resort. Furthermore each resort will have a different format of map, so consistency is what I would expect our customers to want from us. We carry over 140 resorts so producing a map for each is not a "simply publish" type task, although we are starting!
While saying that we need to improve on information provided to customers, we do have to balance that with business interests too. Providing "general" resort information that could potentially lead to you booking with another operator is not entirely within our interests. Unfortunately it does look like that is happening anyway... 
However your point (and pam w's) about not providing enough up front about the places we do sell is well made. Look out for improvements in the coming weeks.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Personally I wouldn't trust detailed resort information on a TO website because I know that it's collected by resort staff who see the task as a pain in the bum and a waste of ski time, and who frequently either make it up or just sign off the previous year's info as being correct and current without checking.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Personally I wouldn't trust detailed resort information on a TO website because I know that it's collected by resort staff who see the task as a pain in the bum and a waste of ski time, and who frequently either make it up or just sign off the previous year's info as being correct and current without checking. |
That's a slightly less tactful way of putting it... 
But now do you see the problem - we could employ lots of people to do it properly, but customers may not value or trust it from us anyway.
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That's a slightly less tactful way of putting it...
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It has the advantage of saying what it means though, which is useful in a method of communication. 
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You know it makes sense.
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| BergenBergen wrote: |
| Its the cold bed / warm bed argument. Resorts that have leaseback property or are supported by TO have a higher seasonal occupancy (hence warm beds) and therefore revenue with which to invest in the infrastructure. This does not subsidise the DIYer, they pay the same lift pass prices |
It isn't about "subsidising".
It is about the fact that the larger resorts would struggle to manage at all (and certainly to continually upgrade facilities) without significant guaranteed mass market income. Which means mainly TOs (whether British, Dutch, or whatever).
I don't think Wayne is saying that DIY is bad, merely that it would be available at a reasonable price point if not for the mass marekt.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| I don't think Wayne is saying that DIY is bad, merely that it would be available at a reasonable price point if not for the mass marekt. |
I certainly don’t see an DIY trips as bad – I do it all the time during the summer. Why? Because I want to. I know it would probably be a bit cheaper and less hassle with a summer TO, buy hey, it’s my money and I spend it how I want.
If I want to spend 3 nights in a lovely hotel in Pendle - Sat and Sun then miss a day and stay again on Tues – I dam well will (and I'll need them to look after bags for the night I'm not there). But of course I wouldn't expect anyone to start a company to cater for people like me - nice hotel for 2 nights then dance naked over the moors by the moonlight for the 3rd then back to the hotel for the 4th.
Mind you …….
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Poster: A snowHead
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Simon Cross, wrote
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Providing "general" resort information that could potentially lead to you booking with another operator is not entirely within our interests.
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Sorry, but that's wrong. If I'm looking for a TO package, and I'm coming to your site to get the "real info", then I'm trusting you more. also, I'd say that your main job is to take care of your customers, and worrying about "misuse" is really not doing that. Many, will look to save 10 quid and book elsewhere, many more will chose the more professional vendor. Also, you'll get many more people browsing your offers, and I could go on. Of course, some info might be made available after booking (like recommended instructors, bars etc)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| sugardaddy wrote: |
| Sorry, but that's wrong. |
I do tend to agree with you. No need to apologise 
I suppose any tour operator you speak to will be extremely aware of his or her competition and working with the web can sometimes feel like you're "giving away" valuable intellectual property. Especially when your competitors are "only 1 click away" as I'm told the phrase goes. There is a very fine line between success and failure in this business and putting your faith in new ways of working can be rather, er, challenging (or at worst unsettling!).
Anyway, as I've said earlier, it's something we're committing to. So watch this space, and thanks for the feedback.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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[quote="alex_heney"]
| BergenBergen wrote: |
I don't think Wayne is saying that DIY is bad, merely that it would be available at a reasonable price point if not for the mass marekt. |
I'm not sure this entirely holds. Looking at the US market I'd estimate that full monty TO packages are a tiny proportion of total skier days yet they manage to sustain a large number of resorts. The mass market would go somewhere, some would give up entirely but a lot would turn to DIY surely. This would increase the pressure on resorts to be more customer focused and the cream would rise to the top. I'm pretty sure that the likes of Chamonix, Morzine, Engelberg, St Anton etc wouldn't lose any sleep if the TO market disappeared overnight .
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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fatbob,
If the mass market disappeared now, it would be different to teh situation if it had never existed.
It is the fact that a guaranteed customer base has been present that has helped the resorts to put the infrastructure in place. Even then, it is only one factor, but I am sure development would have been slower and not as widespread if that large customer base had not existed.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bit of a tangential point, but I think it might be easily forgotten that the vast amount of Brit sliders are introduced to the snow by the oft maligned TO holiday. And from those sprang most of the diyers.
Faced with organising it all independently, most probably wouldn't have bothered. So if nothing else, it's a fertile breeding ground for converts, which has to be a good thing.
I, for one, was one. As are the vast majority even on here, I would aver, if they would care to admit it.
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BCjohnny, Absolutely but I wonder when the switch flips. I accept shs are an unrepresentative sample of the market and skewed towards more independent minded individuals. Maybe there's a correlation with degree of addiction - TOs work fine if you're content with 6 or 12 days skiing a year but when you're trying to squeeze in more then flexibility is the key as is the ability to ski 3 days on a single day's leave etc.
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As are the vast majority even on here, I would aver, if they would care to admit it
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You've puzzled me. Almost all the people here responding to Simon Cross's question replied by saying either 'I started off by using TO's and this is why I stopped...' or else that they continue to sometimes use TOs. So I'm not too sure there is much additional admitting to be done. And hence why it is actually not too tricky to say a big thanks to those who have or do use TOs. Nothing like giving yourself a big pat on the back...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob. When does the casual user become an junkie? Lol. Yes I agree, as it becomes more than a week or two away, and more of, for want of a better phrase, a part of your life, then as with other things, more effort is put into getting more out of it, and maybe that's when diy makes more sense. That sHs is relatively unrepresentative is clearly recognised by the industry pros/insiders on here, past and present.
nozawaonsen, maybe I should have used "loathe" instead of "care". You posted this earlier in the thread:
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| Wayne, where has this disdain or looking down on people idea come from? |
Only on a par with reformed smokers do those that have kicked the TO habit preach their crusading zeal on this august forum.
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FAQ
Brave man!
Mind you, we would miss the hours of fun looking on the resort website plan of the village and triangulating 8 minutes walk from the lift, 15 minutes walk into the centre and 10 minutes from the ski school meeting place in order to guess where it is! 