 Poster: A snowHead
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Gone a bit quiet on here 
abc, I assume you have not skied extensively in UK during March - it can be very hit and miss at lower altitude resorts and is perhaps not quite mid - season 
| rayscoops wrote: |
... I have just checked freeze levels of Notre Dame de Bellecombe (Fr 1000 - 2000m) for the month of March 2008 and this is the result......
NDdB average afternoon freeze level is 1700m
The freeze line was 2000m and above on 10 occasions at NDdB
The freeze line was 1000m and below on 4 occasions at NDdB
The freeze line was 1500m and below on 10 occasions at NDdB |
| abc wrote: |
| Don't know about your plan. But for the OP, who's planning a trip in March, dodgy snow is NOT going to be much of a concern. December, yes. March, not really. |
| abc wrote: |
| I have no problem heading to low elavation resorts in mid-March, especially regions that have history of cold, dry snow, typically away from the ocean. |
| abc wrote: |
| March is middle of the season as far as I'm concern. And even at 1000m, there's usually a lot of snow. |
| Kel wrote: |
| I'm not averse to change, but I am very picky about where I go, well at least now I am. Look at this pic of Passo Tonale Easter 2007. This is the centre of resort and it had been like this for about 6 weeks previous, worse conditions they experienced in living memory by all accounts. BTW the resort is marketed as snow sure !! https://snowheads.com/the_zone/showphoto.php/showphoto.php/photo/9571/ppuser/989 |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It's quiet because people are repeating themselves.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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at the end of the day France is a rip off with very rude europeans. They would have queues at the weekends if they bothered queuing. The lunch food is terrible and most resorts crowded with cars. You will not say this about most of austria. Yes I like to generalise but it is generalised fact.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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It has been my experience that the Austrians are more willing to treat the visitors as their guests and take pride in serving them. One just doesn't get the similar courtesy/respect/attitude from the French.
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queen bodecia, ousekjarr, Tom W, boabski and Hayls - you have spoken much good sense.
Kel: If you go to Austria, find ski in ski out accommodation in a big area resort (not difficult), take a silly hat, don't limit yourself to the confines of a chalet party, cast aside your pre-conceptions and inhibitions and prepare yourself for a PARTY.
If you go to France, take your skis and a good book.
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Zillertal valley is pretty all encompassing, from mayrhofen you have 4 ski resorts from the lift on your doorstep and another 4 big resorts that you can use your pass on. I don't know what you're looking for but there's not much it doesnt do.... though they don't come much more biased than me
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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any comments on schladming for New Year with kids?
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chrisb, You'll have a ball - fabulous skiing with great après of all types. Loads of excellent skiing for all levels and lifties, hoteliers and ski schools who are actively working to ensure that you will return again and again.
Food on the mountain is varied and portions tend to be very large so enjoy the thought of paying 7/8 Euros for a Spag Bog that will feed three normally.
As for those who cannot see beyond France despite everything that has been said here, enjoy your skiing but then don't complain when things are not so happy or cheap!
And before someone pipes up about Austrian bias - I'm half French, and damned proud of it. But I am ashamed of the money-grabbing attitude displayed in many French ski resorts. I still ski in France but go mainly to the smaller more interesting and less avaricious Stations de Ski!
I learnt to ski in France, took my first instructor training with the ESF in Chamonix and enjoyed many good skiing days there BUT that was before the big city shysters from Paris, Lyon and Marseilles came along and saw the ski stations as easy cash cows! How many of you were in the Haute Savoie in the 60s and 70s when everything was locally owned and run? Then the place was more like Austria and the tourist office, hoteliers and ski schools worked hard to get you to return. Now it seems the attitude is milk the tourists for everything now because the chances are they won't come back!
Sue
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
How many of you were in the Haute Savoie in the 60s and 70s when everything was locally owned and run? Then the place was more like Austria and the tourist office, hoteliers and ski schools worked hard to get you to return.
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To be fair, it still seems like that in the part of France we frequent. Indeed a Frenchman from the wrong part of France who recently took over a popular local restaurant is having rather a hard time - partly because he's from Provence and partly, I suppose, because he's actually not a very good restaurateur.  It's the case, however, that for the average Brit skier "France" seems to be equated with the Espace Killy, 3 Valleys, La Plagne, Les Arcs or Chamonix.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I don't see any reason to convince anyone Austria is great. Please go to France and avoid Austria, if it doesn't appeal to you. This way, there will be less crowd on tracks, and I will have much more fun there.
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| bramhall182 wrote: |
| at the end of the day France is a rip off with very rude europeans. They would have queues at the weekends if they bothered queuing. The lunch food is terrible and most resorts crowded with cars. You will not say this about most of austria. Yes I like to generalise but it is generalised fact. |
Generally sounds like rubbish to me 
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You know it makes sense.
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rob@rar, generally sounds terrible, can't believe any one would want go there at all.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
rob@rar
bramhall182 wrote:
at the end of the day France is a rip off with very rude europeans. They would have queues at the weekends if they bothered queuing. The lunch food is terrible and most resorts crowded with cars. You will not say this about most of austria. Yes I like to generalise but it is generalised fact.
Generally sounds like rubbish to me rolling eyes
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Unfortunately I concur with bramhall182 with only reservation that there are nice French resorts too. My own view is based on
Possibly due to the larger number of visitors French resorts lose out in politeness
On average Austria resorts have less visitors than the French and so queues are not a problem. Also I can hardly find a Austrian resort with a reserved side entry for kids or for the ski school taking priority over the normal queue.
The food in Austrian resorts are on par with the Swiss if not better and this is not related to how much the skier spends either.
I can substantiate that the Austrian resorts are bending backward to welcome skiers with cars. I have never had a problem to park my car in any Austrian resort or had to pay for it. If I paid then I had been able to get its value knocked off as a discount when purchasing the ski pass! I would say one can judge how serious an Austrian resort wants its skiers by the size and the number of car parks made available.
A quote from Internet "Hochzillertal was recently catapulted from insider tip to 3rd place in the international ski resort test (www.skiresort.de), and was even awarded 1st place for its parking, babysitting and hut facilities!" Hochzillertal is one of 7 unlinked restos in Zillertal Valley where Mayrhohen is one. It is small by the French standard with only 155km piste. If I remember correctly it has 5 to 6 huge car parks. Any user purchase a ski pass lasting more than 4 days automatically can ski any resort in the Valley.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| chrisb wrote: |
| any comments on schladming for New Year with kids? |
I would consider Schladming as among the best "mainstream" resorts ("mainstream" as in good on-piste skiing using an efficient, interlinked lift system) in Austria. There are as many as four independent mountains (Hauser Kaibling, Planai, Hohchwurzen, Reiteralm) which are linked together with top-notch gondolas (some of them very new). And you have always the option to go to the Ramsau plateau (decent skiing around Rittisberg) and the Dachstein glacier (aweseome view in all directions if the weather is clear!).
However, don't forget that Schladming is a real town, so not every accomodation is in walking distance to the gondola. Hence, a careful selection of the accomodation is recommended. Especially if you are with small kids who cannot carry their equipment by themselves.
Christmans / New Year is high season, but this holds true for everywhere. I am just guessing now, but I think that the relationship between tourist beds and lift potentials is better in the Schladming areas than in some of the more famous resorts.
The region has some of Austria's best snow-making systems. Two years ago I was skiing as early as between November 1-2 here (mix of early natural snow and man-made snow).
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Will be in Schladming myself in 3rd week of Jan as my first visit to Ski Amade.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Samerberg Sue,
Very interested to hear the "half-French" perspective on the F v A debate. Some of us have already voted with our feet, or rather our skis and our bank balances/mortgages. At least no one can accuse you of being biased.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| saikee wrote: |
| On average Austria resorts have less visitors than the French and so queues are not a problem. |
I don't think you can come even close to substantiating that "fact".
I frequently ski the large French resorts, the ones which it has become extremely fashionable to criticise on the forum, and very rarely do I find myself in a lengthy queue. I avoid half-term and if it's a busy week there's usually quiet parts of the ski domain to go and play in. New Year's Day this year being a good example - one of the busiest days of the season so I head to one end of the domain and ski myself to a standstill, lapping around two or three lifts which did not have a single queue all day. This experience was fairly typical for me, so when you say queues in Austria are not a problem but that the converse is true in France it simply doesn't make sense to me as my experience is so different.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
one of the busiest days of the season so I head to one end of the domain and ski myself to a standstill, lapping around two or three lifts which did not have a single queue all day
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And in mid-season, in what I believe was the middle of the very same domain, I was able to avoid pistes which had a few people on them, in favour of pistes which had absolutely nobody else on them at all!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| saikee wrote: |
| On average Austria resorts have less visitors than the French and so queues are not a problem. |
I don't think you can come even close to substantiating that "fact".
I frequently ski the large French resorts, the ones which it has become extremely fashionable to criticise on the forum, and very rarely do I find myself in a lengthy queue. I avoid half-term and if it's a busy week there's usually quiet parts of the ski domain to go and play in. New Year's Day this year being a good example - one of the busiest days of the season so I head to one end of the domain and ski myself to a standstill, lapping around two or three lifts which did not have a single queue all day. This experience was fairly typical for me, so when you say queues in Austria are not a problem but that the converse is true in France it simply doesn't make sense to me as my experience is so different. |
Yebbut 
I have only ever found one place in Austria where it there would be sufficient queues to want to avoid them in the way you said above. (The Penkenbahn at Mayrhofen), although admittedly, I haven't really skied anywhere at peak season.
But I am sure that people who know a resort reasonably well will be able to avoid almost all queues in almost all resorts, regardless of which country the resort is in.
The fact they can be avoided though, doesn't make what Saikee said wrong. I do think he is probably right to say that significant lift queues are less common in Austria than in France. That isn't saying lift queues in Austria are non existent, nor is it saying that many places in France have a significant issue with them.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| The fact they can be avoided though, doesn't make what Saikee said wrong. I do think he is probably right to say that significant lift queues are less common in Austria than in France. That isn't saying lift queues in Austria are non existent, nor is it saying that many places in France have a significant issue with them. |
My problem with what Saikee writes is that it is said with a level of certainty, nay, fact, that is completely at odds with my experience. The country-level generalisations rarely hold water in my experience. To give another example, a couple of seasons ago I spent a long weekend is a Swiss resort that gets a lot of nods 'n' winks as being where real skiers who are in the know go to escape the madding crowds. Had a wonderful time there, with great skiing and good company despite too much snow and wind. But it was a 20 minute queue at the cablecar to get out of the village and up to the skiing. Not at all what I was expecting, and didn't affect my enjoyment of the weekend one jot. But you'd be forgiven for thinking that queuing for lifts in that valley was forbidden by law if you took at face value was was said and implied about it here on snowHeads.
I agree that if you know a ski domain well you are at an advantage over visitors who are only there for a few days. I think they get to see the least appealing side of a resort that way, but each to their own. What seems to hold true in all the resorts I've visited is that the outer edges of the skiing area gets less traffic than the centre of the piste map, so if it's busy head to the outskirts for a more enjoyable experience.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| I have only ever found one place in Austria where it there would be sufficient queues to want to avoid them in the way you said above. (The Penkenbahn at Mayrhofen), although admittedly, I haven't really skied anywhere at peak season. |
My example was New Year's Day in a large French ski resort. I need take no such actions in December, January, first half of February, most of March and all of April except for Easter weekend. There are some bottleneck lifts which can get busy (as there are in many resorts, Penkenbahn being just one example) but it is sometimes possible to avoid those for much of the day. Again, a little bit of local knowledge helps with that if it is not obvious on the piste map.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
admittedly, I haven't really skied anywhere at peak season.
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well then, it's hardly surprising you haven't encountered lift queues. I agree with rob@rar that country level generalisations are likely to be unhelpul - not to say wrong - and this can easily become a "my dad is bigger than your dad" sort of discussion. I would venture one tentative generalisation that the difference between high and low season numbers might be greater in the French resorts (at least those of them with a majority of French skiers) because French holiday patterns are so ingrained. Even folk with no children often holiday in mid February and travel on Saturdays (which creates a self reinforcing pattern of accommodation only being available on a Saturday, of course).
Les Saisies was, by the way, founded by an Austrian. Until two years ago his youngest daughter was the proprietor of the restaurant over the road from our apartment (which has sadly gone downhill since she left).
What is notable about this debate is that whilst those of us who ski in France tend to leap loyally to the defence of "our" areas, we generally do so without slagging off Austrian ones. The converse is, alas, not true. I just have a teeny little nagging suspicion that some of those who do slag off French resorts often do so having visited rather few of them, and perhaps at just one time of year.
But that's probably an unworthy suspicion so perhaps I should try to put it out of my mind.
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The bigger the resort the worse the bottle kneck imho, so in general the mega (or big) resorts/villages suffer from larger queues because there are simply more people hitting the lifts at similar times. Austria mainly has smaller linked resorts that spread the load I suppose so it seems that the queues are smaller. I have queued a bit at St Anton but queued much more getting to and from the likes of Avoriaz, and at bottleknecks at Whistler, and the likes of Tignes and Verbie can be bit of a chore for lifts at the main points of uplift.
Unfortunately the biggest resorts are to be found in France
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I would venture one tentative generalisation that the difference between high and low season numbers might be greater in the French resorts (at least those of them with a majority of French skiers) because French holiday patterns are so ingrained. Even folk with no children often holiday in mid February and travel on Saturdays (which creates a self reinforcing pattern of accommodation only being available on a Saturday, of course). |
I think that's probably right. So if the large French resorts like 3V, Espace Killy, Paradiski, etc can just about cope with the crowds that turn up in school holidays that level of infrastructure is going to offer a semi-deserted experience when the same crowds go back home...
| pam w wrote: |
| What is notable about this debate is that whilst those of us who ski in France tend to leap loyally to the defence of "our" areas, we generally do so without slagging off Austrian ones. The converse is, alas, not true. |
That is something that I have also observed. I'm not trying to defend skiing in France, or even skiing in the large, well-known French resorts which is not necessarily the same thing, but I do think the French slag-fest needs a little bit of balancing every now and then.
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You know it makes sense.
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| rayscoops wrote: |
| The bigger the resort the worse the bottle kneck imho, so in general the mega (or big) resorts/villages suffer from larger queues because there are simply more people hitting the lifts at similar times. |
That applies in peak weeks, essentially school holidays and mainly the half-terms. A big resort needs lots of infrastructure to cope (just about) with peak demand. In France there seems to be a huge differential between peak demand and off-peak demand, so a resort that can cope with peak demand has extensive unused capacity in off-peak periods. That is my experience of skiing the big French resorts - extensive unused capacity in uplift and piste availability.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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We have skied Austria in the past 2 seasons and loved it. We skied France every year since 2004 usually more than once a season with last season being the first time we missed going there. The credit crunch has hit our business and money is tight BUT we still want to ski. We are trying to plan 1 family trip to the Ski Amade in Austria because the place is great and relatively cheap. For our boys trip we have chosen the 3valleys  Why on earth I hear you ask:
1) Great flights from our local airport
2) Say what you like but the 3 Valleys is awesome
3) CHEAP Accomodation; due to various circumstances some of us cant do Sundays so we are going on a Monday and returning late on a saturday. The flights have been £63 return, car hire is coming down in price, we have hired a s/c place just outside St Martin de Bellville and have hired both the upstairs and downstairs of a place so that we can all have single rooms. We are 11 so far and the cost of the accomodation is £940 for a full Saturday - Saturday and it could sleep 20! It is owned by snowHead Villz and we plan to buy in Moutiers and mainly eat and drink in.
The 3v doesn't have to be pricey and it certainly is magnificent. Very limited northern flight options put the kybosh on Austria.....and we all got a little bit excited at the thought of the 3V
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Samerberg Sue wrote: |
| As for those who cannot see beyond France despite everything that has been said |
Apart from convenience and familiarity, I really can't work out the "France" thing, as it manifests itself on here.
John.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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SH like rob@rar and pam w who own a property in France certainly know how to avoid queues. I have also spent the new years weeks in Tarentaise and can confirm queuing is not much a problem there at this period, even though I did have a hellish problem to get out on a change over day.
However I did run a mobile home in Chamonix for 8 years and due to inexperience often visited various French resorts at peak times and come to know what the score is like in Porte Du Soleil, Grand Massif, Domain Evasion, Chamonix and Tarentaise. In term of crowd density I ask whoever say French and Austrian resorts are no different to visit Meribel and compare it with any Austrian resort say at the 3rd week of Feb. In one visit the wife and I actually got separated by the crowd when we skied down Meribel after the lifts were about to be stopped. It took me an hour to find her back. Since then I never go skiing without carrying a pair of walkie talkie. Am I certain of the crowd density? Yes I am and I can even say if the rest of the Alps is like Meribel at peak time then I am happy to call it a day for my skiing.
My opinion is based on a single person experience after having visited 37 French resorts but ony 27 in Austria. I go to ski in France just like any other country in the Alps but would be much more selective of the time and the location.
I think I am reasonably certain that the French do not visit Asutrian resorts in any big number (A French teenager once said "fu?k you" when an Austrian resort was suggested to her as many French believe they invented the skiing and their resorts are the best in the world) and neither do the British (relative to those going to France). That fact alone guarantees less crowd.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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My comments on Austrian resorts were really to side with bramhall182 whose remarks were dismissed as "rubbish" by a SH without offering any specific counter argument.
I took a hard look at what was written and although I wouldn't put it the same way I feel the arguments were NOT rubbish as I was able to put together some information relevant to his/her assertions.
Of all the relevant points it is only the density of the crowd that is now in dispute here. Apparently bramhall182 other points are not rubbish after all.
France has many exciting resorts that will give us a great time in skiing. My point is there are also similar exciting resorts in other countries and the Austrian resorts have some advantages that may be suitable to some but not others. An informed opinion can only be formed after one has tried a few of the resorts outside France and able to make a sensible comparision.
Some of the features that other countries have difficulties in beating France could include
size
large number of catered chalets
ski-in ski-out accommodations
First class lift system in most resorts
High number of TO promoting French resorts hence more choices
Can be quite affordable at selected locations
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 5-10-09 13:17; edited 1 time in total
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A lot of what appeals about any place is clearly a matter of personal taste and rto a certain extent luck with conditions and what ones abilities and aptitudes are at any time.
It was very apparent from reading the where would you not go back to thread? that some of my favourite resorts were disliked by others.
I have been quite abit to both Austria and France recently and reckon anyone who does not give the other a try is missing out, they both have a lot to offer.
I would not like to generalise about lift queus in different countries though my instinctis to avoid France in the Feb half term. The worst queues I have encountered recently have been in an Austrian resort which shall remain nameless as I have whinged before and persistatntly complaining about the resort after only one experience is not really fair. But it was mid week the queues at the bottom of the mountain were horrendous, We thought these would be the worst. Up the mountain was just as bad, long queues and very crowded pistes. They were not avoidable from that resort. All the lifts on the hill appeared to be at least 20 minutes and frequently longer.
Behaviour can be bad trying to get onthe ski bus from Rauz to Lech generates far worse behviour than anything I have witnessed in France. The French and Brits may not go in quantities to Austria teh Dutch, Germans ad Scandies certainly do.
I am going back to Ausstria this Feb and may wel go to France at Easter if I can get the holidays. I certainly intend and expect to enjoy both but you can encounter problems anywhere.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| saikee wrote: |
| My comments on Austrian resorts were really to side with bramhall182 whose remarks were dismissed as "rubbish" by a SH without offering any specific counter argument. |
IMO it was such a stupid post that I couldn't bother giving it a substantive reply. I responded to you in a more detailed way to offer a radically different experience which I think countered the sweeping generalisation that you made about how busy French resorts were and how long the queues were in relation to Austria.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| saikee wrote: |
| My point is there are also similar exciting resorts in other countries and the Austrian resorts have some advantages that may be suitable to some but not others. |
I agree entirely. It's just a shame that you have to make (IMO, unsubstantiated) sweeping generalisations which are derogatory about skiing in an entire country in order to justify your choices.
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Frosty the Snowman, ultimately when considering where to go, a big factor for me is convenience, and if I can afford it I like to be as close as possible to the main lifts for a region, and whilst you deal looks very good value there is always a very good reason for it, mainly that you are outside the village of a 3V 'statellite'. Are you worried that to access the 3V you are solely relying upon two consecutive lifts (gondola then change to a fast chair) just to get to the Tougnette ridge ? Does the chair to the ridge close much on stormy days ?
Of course a group of you and your mates will make your own fun, but for me the enjoyment of boarding is finishing at 4.30, chucking my board in a corner, buying a beer and then watching the world go buy for the next few hours before walking back to the accom for a quick change to go out for the evening, and St Martin would not seem to provide that. Maybe when I get to your age I might go for the more sedate charms of such a resort
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When we started skiing in the early 90's , friends who had previously skied in Austria and Switzerland had switched to France, because Austria and Switzerland had become so expensive.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I stood for 2 hrs at Mid-station at Les Deux Alpes in a massive queue waiting to be to be uploaded to the glacier. There was a fault with the stage 2 bubble and we all had to go up on a chair, carrying our skis. L2A has a bit of a reputation for yobbery but the behaviouer in the queue was exemplary. Getting a bus back from the Achterjet base to Kaprun was a TOTALLy different experience that involved me and my mate throwing all the teddies out of the pram.
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FAQ
's more carefully this is what I said in an earlier report. 
