 Poster: A snowHead
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[quote="jjc"]
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Stewart I have been thinking about other ways of doing the test and you might be able to help me remember something. When they tested the proposed ISIA test in Garmish last year, I think I am right in saying it worked out a lot harder than the ET would have? I remember being used as the current 50 point skier for the ISIA tests calculation and I am pretty sure it worked out that less would have passed. |
If i recall correctly the pass mark was approx 2 secs slower but i am not 100% sure.
Someone asked Alain Baxter in Garmisch if current FIS point racers would be fairer. Alain's thoughts were that 50 point racers would always try to go faster to acheive 40/30/20 points whilst he was trying to ski to his coefficent.
Someone earlier mentioned 160 FIS points as equal to ET pass. In Garmisch 3 of the openers managed exactly the same base time of 44.20 secs, after their coefficents had been taken into account. This would have given a pass time of 52.16 secs (44.20 x 18%). The pass time was actually 53.01 as the closing times were slightly slower due to the ruts. Please correct me if i am wrong but this would mean 90 FIS points
A pretty high standard 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stewart woodward, Can you confirm how the ET pass time is calculated ? I assume they use the fastest openers time (after adjusting for coefficient) and then add his adjusted opening and closing run time and divide by two ? But i had heard it was just the opening time...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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BindingcheckOnce they pass the appropriate qualifications they can have a job anytime, and they will very soon.
They have shown great charachteristics. These include;
The willingness to continue to progress and keep learning themselves.
Being able to apply themselves to difficult tasks.
Understanding of what is required to do the job successfully.
The ability to take responsibility for their own situation.
Good understanding of what they could have done better.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Wed 23-03-11 22:58; edited 2 times in total
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| stewart woodward, Can you confirm how the ET pass time is calculated ? I assume they use the fastest openers time (after adjusting for coefficient) and then add his adjusted opening and closing run time and divide by two ? But i had heard it was just the opening time... |
pass time is calculated as follows;
Fastest opening time after coefficent is applied
Fastest closing time after coefficent is applied.
Add the 2 together divide by 2 and add 18%
It dosen't have to be the same opener and closer.
The fastest opening/closing time after the coefficents have been applied are not normally the fastest skiers (i.e Alain Baxter/ French openers) but another opener who has skied much faster than his/her coefficent ( Craig has done this before and a very fit German opener called Christina. I think Crag was chasing her!)
Hope this is understandable 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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[quote="stewart woodward"][quote="jjc"]
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Someone asked Alain Baxter in Garmisch if current FIS point racers would be fairer. Alain's thoughts were that 50 point racers would always try to go faster to acheive 40/30/20 points whilst he was trying to ski to his coefficent.
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I think that is a fair point... One of the difficulties with the ISIA test is having openers who are 45-55 FIS points currently... GB doesnt have that many racers in that range and lots of nations would struggle to have enough racers of that calibre. although the calibration method used by the ET isnt perfect they can always use retired racers of a wider range of standards who have nothing to prove giving a bigger pool of potential openers.
To me if they kept the current ET test and instead of the fastest openers avg time used the average of ALL the openers it would be a much fairer and consistent test. Then if they applied an old guy handicap life would be very fair indeed 
The ET is here to stay imo, but if pressure could be brought to modify it to make it more consistent this debate will have been worth while
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stewart woodward,very understandable thank you, i didnt appreciate it wasnt the same person for the opening and closing times.
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Yep was in Morzine, set 3 out of the 4 times. Not a bad day at the office.
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jjc james,
It would be interesting if you could post your opening/closing times & coefficent. We could then compare this to a ISIA pass as Craig mentioned earlier.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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skimott its probably worth your while having a look at a test if you're really interested. I really don't think what you suggest would alter the pass time too much. If the host nation want a ball park no of passes in a test week they can set more technical courses / have more openers (I've seen 5 french openers plus RG at a test) / tell openers to put the foot on the gas / slip the course heavily prior to closing etc etc etc...
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skimottaret, The other problem with using a current 50 point racer is that they ski to 50 points on the fis circuit starting with high bib numbers. Once they have a clean track they ski much faster. I am much closer to some of the top french openers at ET than i would be at a FIS race. I also think when they used me as the 50 point racer i was in better shape and skiing better than 50 points. Seemed like a lot could go wrong with the ISIA test.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Most amused that people a page or so back were encouraging others to join in the debate - were the points/questions I posted above such nonsense that they're being politely ignored, thanks guys but do tell me I can take it 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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JJC - James
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If you can teach 1 person to ski you can teach 12.
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Absolutely agree, in fact sometimes 12 can be more successful then 6. It wasn’t the relative numbers that I felt was wrong it was the completely different contexts.
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It also makes no difference how i do, as this miniature battle of words we all enjoy is unfortunately never going to get past the stage it has been at for the last few days. I do believe we have hit a wall, it will take action from an external party, Basi, Femps, Lawyers etc to move our discussions further than they are now.
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If we assume that no-one is trying to win and no-one is trying to ‘score points’ then how we conduct ourselves on this forum is actually quite important. It is about being able to respect the opinions of others, not necessarily agree with them but respect them. My observation is that all of those who have contributed have changed/adjusted/adapted their position, they are beginning to appreciate other perspectives. Some notions, such as an age allowance or the ‘on the day fairness’ of the Eurotest are better understood. I disagree that a wall has been hit, It might be appropriate to review where we have arrived at, press the ‘reset’ button and then take the forum on from there. I do agree that ultimately changes will be affected by an external party, but as I said in my first post those who are involved in this forum will be in a well reasoned position to stimulate that external party into action
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However the visual learner is just as important as a kinaesthetic or audio learner. Each has a right to be taught in the fashion that yields the best results for them. These 3 forms may from a spectrum in which each learner will benefit to different extents but the need for a suitable teaching standard in each one individually is still required.
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Agreed and a “how we can improve our teaching” thread is one that I would relish – if only I knew how to start a new thread!
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May i ask Bindingcheck, your point of view to this issue? Which side interests you the most, the legal side? the challenge of debate? working as a ski instructor?
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Very perceptive question which I am happy to answer. But first I have to point out that I have absolutely no vested interest in any changes that may occur to the Eurotest or the consequences that may arise should, for example, all Level 3’s be allowed to work in the FEMPS nations. I am a working ski instructor and that work currently forms the bulk of my income stream but I do have to supplement it with summer work, a situation which will not change.
I have tried to maintain a neutral position thus far because it was apparent that the forum did not need more opinions, However, as you have asked my point of view on this issue: it is simply one of fairness.
Currently the system is controlled by those who have a vested interest. I am uncomfortable with a system which enables a ‘few’ people to have a lot of money, my preference would be that a lot of people had ‘enough’ money. I would like to see a system where the instructor services the industry rather than the industry serving the instructor. Currently the system places a premium on performing not on teaching, there are a lot of very good teachers who are unable to add quality to the system all because of the time it takes to snap your fingers, that is not a fair system.
As several postee’s have said the system is currently set up the wrong way round, instead of setting the standard by how much you can ‘de-tune’ the racer we should set the standard based on how much you need to ‘uptune’ or upskill the ski instructor for the job as a ski instructor. I would like to see the vast majority of British holiday skiers and snowboarders taking lessons but before that happens the lessons will have to become more affordable, it’s basic economics.
The way that you will change the system is not by pretending that you are ‘at the top table’ of FEMPS when clearly you are not. If you knew the background to the Brussels Agreement you would be embarrassed (it's very similar to HURTLE's observation of "why did BASI cave in?"). The way that you will change the system is to use the law to your advantage.
Phew - well that was a lot more than I planned to say. Did I answer all of your questions?
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You know it makes sense.
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BEANIE1
Thanks for doing the needful.
I can't get my head around BASI thinking that they can support both the ISIA and FEMPS (the Eurotest). Such a feat takes fence sitting into another dimension.
HURTLE
I am likewise minded. The submissions were made by the Board on behalf of the members. The date for submissions on the matter has passed and the submissions of all interested parties now lie with the Commission. Why can the details of the BASI submission be made known to the members. It is this sort of behaviour that increases suspicion about the motives of the Board.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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STOATSBROTHER
Great name.
On the basis of my observation of young kids ski schools in France you are correct. And you win another coconut by noting that the having passed the Eurotest is relevant to only 10% (max) of an Ski Schools clientele.
My mind is going overtime trying to work out what the "numerically-limited-qualification-restricted-profession" might be. Don't tell us it would only spoil the fun. But you have picked up a full set by spotting the main reason for the Eurotest - money
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Poster: A snowHead
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how can the board of basi be representing the membership on these issues when it all seems to be behind closed doors ,how many of you isia,s out there knew this stuff was going on in january ,let alone even now .
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| sixman wrote: |
| how can the board of basi be representing the membership on these issues when it all seems to be behind closed doors |
How many of the board have actually passed the Eurotest ? How do they know how difficult it is ?
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| roga wrote: |
| Most amused that people a page or so back were encouraging others to join in the debate - were the points/questions I posted above such nonsense that they're being politely ignored, thanks guys but do tell me I can take it |
Not nonsense at all. Excellent questions which mirror my own. Particularly the relevance of the L3\ISIA as a stand alone qualification for working in Europe, which I've alluded to in my posts.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| jjc wrote: |
| skimottaret, The other problem with using a current 50 point racer is that they ski to 50 points on the fis circuit starting with high bib numbers. Once they have a clean track they ski much faster. I am much closer to some of the top french openers at ET than i would be at a FIS race. I also think when they used me as the 50 point racer i was in better shape and skiing better than 50 points. Seemed like a lot could go wrong with the ISIA test. |
| Jonnie wrote: |
| skimott its probably worth your while having a look at a test if you're really interested. I really don't think what you suggest would alter the pass time too much. If the host nation want a ball park no of passes in a test week they can set more technical courses / have more openers (I've seen 5 french openers plus RG at a test) / tell openers to put the foot on the gas / slip the course heavily prior to closing etc etc etc... |
Both very excellent points that show the ISIA test isnt perfect either !! I started this thread when the ISIA announced they had reviewed and rejected the ET as the basis for a global technical test and formulated their own. On initial reading the ISIA test seemed more consistent to me but to be honest with the recent change to the ET of being the average of the two fastest openers and closers and all that i have learned here from current openers and test candidates i dont think there is much in it.
I personally believe that to ensure honest mutual recognition of qualifications between nations there should be a timed test. The tests are run to international agreed FIS standards, are regulated and the clock doesnt lie. This debate to me is becoming less about how "fair" the ET is but more what should be the minimum standard for migrant workers. The main issues remaining are
1. Is the pass time too difficult? In 10 years only roughly 150 BASI members have passed the ET. This is the pinnacle out of a membership of 6000 plus. Is this the correct level for a ski associations top elite instructor award and the only way to be a migrant worker in the EU.
2. Should the test be age handicapped? It is already sex handicapped and there has been lots of good debate that shows clearly (to me at least) that as a test of skill as opposed to a performance test that it could be and that an age handicapped test would still ensure a basic level of skill. It also appears to me that there is a strong legal case for age handicapping. Finally a ski racing age handicap already exists for FIS Masters ski racing which the current ET could utilise (more about this later)
Most of the people arguing are older ISIA's or L2's who came to teaching later in life and would like to teach in a foreign country as roga points out. The current ISIA although meant to doesnt work for that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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ROGA
I see that you are also involved in the thread about ADC 1 & 2 so clearly you are thinking seriously about progressing through the system. I assume that you are receiving ongoing training outwith a BASI course. Is the training from within the ski school or are you using one of the non - aligned BASI staff / race coaches. If you haven't already done so I would suggest that you offer to help out with either Cairngorm Ski Club or Scottish Ski Club so that you can gain experience of coaching on the race side.
Trust me - someone who is beyond the teenager stage needs to develop their racing skills differently from the way the youngsters are coached. It's not the skills that are different, it's the way that you learn them. There might be, as JJC has identified, other reasons why you might not reproduce them in a pressure situation but the skills can be learned if you are coached by someone who understands where you are on the learning maturation continuum, ie. if the coach works with you the same way that (s)he works with 13 / 15 year olds the chances of you developing are reduced.
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skimottaret, I'm going to have ago at your first question.
Where all the other nations differ to ours is that they have a much higher base standard of members and therefore their hierarchy is going to differ to ours. They have sufficient numbers passing to justify the ET as having an appropriate level. Not many basi members will have skied twice a week all season whilst they were growing up! Hence the difference in pass rates.
But should the whole standard change because some of us were out playing footy with our mates while the others may have been training with their local ski club? I think its hard to justify lowering the test on the behalf of so few.
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skimottaret, I will try answer number two.
I think we can conclude from everything said on both sides that you could have a good case for age handicaps. To what % isnt for me to decide but i would predict it to be no more than 4-5%
Is age handicapping going to make much difference to the results we see? I would suggest from my experience very little. To increase the % passing we need to look at everything we have mentioned over the last 4 pages with the client in mind.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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jjc james, jjc, i tend to agree with both of you. I am in favour of the ET but feel it should be age handicapped just like an allowance is made for gender. I am not really in a position to comment not having taken a test but hearing from guys who have done I think a 4% allowance could be a big difference. 2 seconds on a 50 sec course would make a it a lot fairer in my view for a 40 or 50 year old. As i mentioned earlier FIS apparently have an age handicap system already in place for FIS masters races in the States. If they applied this handicap to the new ET with the average of 2 openers/closers job done in my opinion.
I would also say that if there is a ET to ensure a level playing field between the top certs of all EU nations BASI should drop the L4 technical as it doesnt add anything and content of each nations top tech test would be too subjective. How about the ISTD being the ET and the Euro Mountain Security only, both of these tests are common throughout the EU and the same standard would apply to all countries.
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skimottaret, You need a test that ensures all other aspects such as understanding and application of that understanding are tested. Tech doesn't just test on how you ski but how well you know skiing (written exam).
Doing away with the Tech would lower the standard just as much as scrapping the ET, both work hand in hand with each other. 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Just to be clear when you are talking about a 4% allowance do you mean adding 4% to the 18% i.e. 22% or adding 4% of 18% (0.72%) so 18.72%? Looks like you mean adding 4% to the 18% which is in my view over generous for a 40 year old.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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snowrider, i dont have an exact figure as of yet but from what others suggested 4% would not be unreasonable. I am trying to get some official FIS age handicap infomation and perhaps that would be more accurate as opposed to what is used in other sports like running which is where the 4 % came from. so yes i was talking about adding a percentage on.
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| jjc james wrote: |
But should the whole standard change because some of us were out playing footy with our mates while the others may have been training with their local ski club? I think its hard to justify lowering the test on the behalf of so few. |
Quite.
Had tried to post this morning in response to something Rob@Rar said a few pages back but for some reason it didn't work.
Anyway - to summarise (and playing devil's advocate a little):
For many/most brits being a ski instructor is very much a 'lifestyle choice'; for many/most locals, being a ski instructor is one of the few ways they can make really good money for part of each year whilst living in the village their parents, grandparents etc etc lived in, and from which they have pretty much been excluded from buying a home due to property inflation by holiday-home-buying 'outsiders' already, unless their family happens to own a shop/hotel/restaurant etc.
Seems like a pretty good reason to have a selective test to me.
Or should we maybe just send all those pesky locals to work on building sites in Paris & Lyon, far from their family/homeland?
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You know it makes sense.
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offpisteskiing, It is a fair point you make about having a 'local shop' for 'local people' 
But if the ET is a standard that is genuinely required it should be a standard that is maintained throughout your career and that means re-certification to the same standard on a regular basis. No excuses for injury/age if you cant pass you cant teach, be you local or someone making a 'lifestyle choice'.
After all who wants to be taught by somone who cant hit the 18%?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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kevindonkleywood, Bang on, im all for re testing.
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Poster: A snowHead
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kevindonkleywood, so when are you going to be retaking your driving test?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Interesting thread with many valuable contributions.
The one thing that I have always thought about and it has been mentioned; does it add to an instructors ability to do what most in the industry do, which is teach people to ski. Not teach them to ski at race standard, just getting on a mountain and getting clients to a good standard to enjoy the sport and ski the whole mountain. Would it make a difference to the ISTD qualification if it was not there? I don't mean in terms of equivalence to other national bodies, more precisely would the outcome of ISTD level teach and tech alter. No, of course not.
I know and have worked with many people in the industry who have gone through to complete ISTD level training and I can honestly say that for the majority it is a case of 'it's done'. Not, 'great that will make a difference to my ability as a ski teacher'.
Without doubt it is needed, as there needs to be a level of skill which has been assessed to allow higher qualified teachers/coaches to become involved in the higher end of the sport (national team coaches etc)
At a skill level I don't believe it makes a marked difference to an instructors ability to do the run of the mill job of teaching people to ski. If there is no tangible gain why is it required. Anything could be manufactured and bolted in to a qualification. Likewise, what is not needed could equally be removed.
Most do the ET training because they have to, not because they want to and therein lies the issue: what measurable benefit does it provide when teaching people to ski? We need good quality teachers which is addressed within the various levels of BASI as it stands.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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OFFPISTESKIING
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for many/most locals, being a ski instructor is one of the few ways they can make really good money for part of each year whilst living in the village their parents, grandparents etc etc lived in, and from which they have pretty much been excluded from buying a home due to property inflation by holiday-home-buying 'outsiders' already, unless their family happens to own a shop/hotel/restaurant etc.
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So now the EUROTEST is a tool for social engineering - in addition to all of its other benefits of course.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Bindingcheck, I really don't know why the UK doesn't do a bit of social engineering and see off all those Polish builders and the like, do you?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Bindingcheck, Hurtle, One viewpoint could be that enforced social engineering is already ongoing in the Alps with the locals being priced out of their homes...
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offpisteskiing, yes, the difference being that that's not against the law.
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offpisteskiing, Sounds a bit like our village here in the UK.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Hurtle, I am not a lawyer & not familiar with the intricacies of the law. I do however see what is happening out here to the local population. It seems to me that a lot of people treat these mountains as a disposable resource...
david@mediacopy, it's sad to see - I know quite a few folks who have basically had to leave the valley to provide a reasonable home for their family.
Anyway, enough from me, I'll leave you all to get back to your legalistic & percentage-based arguments
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offpisteskiing,
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I do however see what is happening out here to the local population. It seems to me that a lot of people treat these mountains as a disposable resource...
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Please don't think I'm condoning that, but free movement of labour is what we all signed up to, at one time or another.
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FAQ
