 Poster: A snowHead
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Updated info with regards to a rumour i heard regarding the Simon Butler case.
Word is he has not "won" his case but was not prosecuted due to a "plea bargain" and the opposition dropped parts of their case... also, The transcript hasnt been given to BASI so they cant really comment on the case......
I dont like spreading rumours about such serious matters and especially when it is relating to someones living, but i do find it odd that a press release was issued and reported here and on Pisthors but a transcript of the court case has not been made available.
It sounds as though Simon has won the right to carry on (well done!) but it is less than clear what the implication is for others
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| skimottaret wrote: |
a transcript of the court case has not been made available.
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You can get the case papers from Bonneville court - they would cost be about 10 euros but you would just get the judgement, about a couple of pages normally.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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davidof, thanks for the tip, i am hoping someone who has the transcript will go to the toruble of making a scanned copy available on line so it can be reviewed to see what the general implications may be.
My comment of "has not been made available" is kindof out of order as it is a paper transcript by the sounds of it...
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skimottaret, that rumour sounds very odd. The recent judgement was an appeal, which overturned the previous conviction. I can't see how the concept of a plea bargain could be relevant (but perhaps I'm just projecting such knowledge as I have of the legal systems of English-speaking countries onto France).
At any rate, I find the public airing of such a rumour pretty unedifying.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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skimottaret, interesting
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regards to a rumour i heard regarding the Simon Butler case
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The transcript hasnt been given to BASI so they cant really comment on the case......
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As a member of BASI I would expect them to get a transcript and comment because it directly effects their members?
I do hope that it is just a rumour but nothing in the latest news letter and nothing on the website.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| skimottaret, that rumour sounds very odd. The recent judgement was an appeal, which overturned the previous conviction. |
Are you sure of that Laundryman? Bonneville is a first instance court. AFAIKS this thread relates to a court case in 2006 rather than a recent judgement and was not an appeal. Maybe there is something in this long thread that I missed?
If someone Paypal's me a few euros I will go and pick up the judgement from Bonneville and scan it here - however this won't be the full transcript of the case which won't be available - the legal system doesn't work like that here.
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To all BASI members who have studied this thread and have realised that a BASI qualification (ISTD accepted) does not prohibit you from teaching in France due to this ruling, are you wondering why BASI have not made an announcement?
I am?
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Dunk, maybe i got the wrong end of the stick, but i thought this only affected a v small number of people? I.e. those who have the old BASI 1 (pre speed test) but didn't do the paperwork at the appropriate time that was needed to have the qualification recognised.
Please anyone correct me if i'm wrong, i've not read the whole thread!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, I may be wrong, but with consultation with the appealant it is any level which BASI considers appropiate to teach on snow. Please forgive me if I am incorrect.
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Dunk, i think you are wrong after speaking with a higher up in basi this past week.... once we get a copy of the judgement reviewed all will be a bit clearer.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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How long ago was the judgement handed down??? What are BASI doing??? Do they need a brewery to organise the party!!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Roy Hockley, maybe the answer is that the judgement means nothing to other BASI members..
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skimottaret, How is that possible, if a precedent has been set?
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You know it makes sense.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| skimottaret, How is that possible, if a precedent has been set? |
Perhaps Simon Butler's case might be unique, of no relevance to other BASI members?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Roy Hockley, i personally don't think (but dont know) any major precedents have been set and that the case is unique to Simon and his operation. I hope that they have put a dent in the whole centre du formation training school status and i congratulate Simon on sticking to his principles and fighting this. Speaking with a senior BASI person last week he said that the speed test will continue to be a part of the ISTD and that Simons case was not significant to other BASI members. He was aware of it but didn't comment on the specifics. His stance with regards to working in France was that BASI will be battling against the requirement for the test technique and the protectionist status that training centre schools must be staffed by french trained ISTD's and that BASI trained ones don't count.
Lets wait till someone posts the case transcript to actually see what the actual implications are and if any major precedents have been set for other BASI members.
I find it odd that a press release was prepared and published online here and at pistehors and sent to major newspapers but the actual transcript hasn't been published hence my feeling that it doesnt set a major precedent.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| His stance with regards to working in France was that BASI will be battling against the requirement for the test technique and the protectionist status that training centre schools must be staffed by french trained ISTD's and that BASI trained ones don't count. |
It would seem to me that it's a perfectly reasonable position that a "Centre de Formation" that prepared people for the French ISTD should be staffed by a quota of French-trained ISTDs - i.e. people who knew and understood the system that they were being trained in. What doesn't seem reasonable is that that should be the only progression. So if a school was preparing trainees in e.g. the BASI or CSIA system then they should be allowed to operate, and their trainees work on the same basis as do French ones, with BASI or CSIA ISTDs as appropriate.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, i agree with you but a lot of this boils down to commercial issues in France. The ESF and other training schools have large numbers of low paid apprentices on their books and can offer lower cost lessons than other schools who can only have ISTD's on staff.
I can see both sides of the arguement. The French have a good training system that produces high level career ISTD instructors and allows those instructors to earn a proper living. That is why loads of Brit ISTD's work in France as the wages are good there. The French would say if you want to train under the British system do it in Britain. The Brits counter that as EU members we should be able to ply our trade in any EU county....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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This seems a complicated issue. Without spending ages on trying to sort out the issues, arguments and parties to the dispute and what exactly has been established so far. It does seem that the result is of limited application. France does not have binding precedent and if the court is fairly low in the pecking order the decision in this case may not be verry influential.
Has Simon's lawyer thought of going for enofrcement of the relevant dierective?
If ESF's action is preventing the application of the dirrective someone adversely affected can via the local courts seek redress.
If ESF is held to be part of the state ('state' has a fairly wide meaning in this regard) a claimant can seek direct enforcement of the terms of a directive.
If however the blocker is 'state' then the claimant can get the directive enforced indirectly. That means the local court is obliged to interpret local laws in the spirit of the directive even if it means disapplying conflicting local provisions.
If this succeeds it will send a message that it is going to be more difficult to ride roughshod over directive provisions. If it fails (say where the local court is disinclined to apply indirect application) and the directive is clear enough then the matter can go to ECJ. If that happens and a favourable rulilng is given then that rulling will have very powerful pursuasive effect. It will be very difficult for any local court to decide similar cases when there has been a specific ECJ ruling. In this way all instructors/ schools will benefit by the outcome and there won't have to be individual actions etc.
This is all speculation not having looked at the matter in any detail and I could be v wide of the mark but it may be worth considering if the facts etc make this approach worthwhile.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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oops i've just looked at my post and it's full of typos. Also I've missed not' after If however the blocker is 'state' It should read 'If however the blocker is not 'state'......
sorry should get better glasses.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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some interesting stuff on this over at Pistehors......
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I am a Basi 1 teaching on a dry slope and to further the discussion
I don't need the skill set required to get a race time to teach a pupil how to rotate their legs and feet for their early stages of snow plough turning. Agreed if I were teaching carving the same skills of racing do apply.
So at 50 years old, where I have absolutly no chance in the speed test, would that make me a bad instructor to teach at a level WELL WITHIN MY CAPABILITY.
We have some candidates currently dong their Club instructor training from the race squad, They are fair skiers whilst racing but their basics (snow ploughs) are absolute crap and this is as they have nearly finished their training so does having the ability to ski face actually have anything to do with teaching?
I realise that this may be a simplistic view as I am on the very bottom of the ladder of becoming an ISIA (Don't expect to get any further at my age, if I can get even that far) But to put to analagy, I am a monkey at the bottom of the tree looking up at all the other moneys and all I can see is back bottom
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"Back bottom" ???? I never wrote that, What I said was A..se
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Rocksteadee, welcome to snowHeads. The forum has a word censor which changes some words 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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rob@rar, That could be the basis of an interesting thread....... 
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What does one have to type to get "front bottom"?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Quote: |
What does one have to type to get "front bottom"?
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PMSL
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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To further yet still
One of the fundementals: "Adjustment"........ To be judged on a speed test, which is essentially the speed at which adjustments are made (Provided all the fundementals are in place) as far as I can see, has no relevance to ski instructing
Apart from race training.
So in all practicality shouldn't it be a separate module,
Swiss have got the right idea. Anyway who has ever heard of a decent watch being made in france.
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You know it makes sense.
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A "fresh action" has been taken against Simon B by the French... not finished yet 
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FAQ
