 Poster: A snowHead
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laundryman, Oh, thats good - I shan't embarass myself then!! Thanks!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
I can do 50-70 days on snow for around $10,000 Oz dollars . Most of that cost is lessons.
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That's only possible when you live within short distance of a ski resort. Most people spend a much bigger portion of their budget on lodging and just getting there.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Megamum, to be honest, I'd be upping my lessons if I were you. A 1 hour private lesson doesn't really allow you to progress and consolidate your skills. How about 2 sessions of 2 hours each? With a free day inbetween. That way you can go away and practise what you've been taught and then your instructor can build on those skills and progress with you in your next session? Your instructor should naturally be taking you to more difficult slopes as your ability increases.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Megamum, i am kinda with cathy, on that one. I tend to find 1 hour isnt enough to get comfortable with a new instructor and 2 hours in a private lesson can be almost too much with a bit of information overload creeping in.
Have you thought about "clinics" typically up to 4 or 6 peeps depending on ski school and usually a couple of hours for two or three days but in a small group very manageable as far as absorbing the lesson content.
I did peek at you video and i think you would do well in that type of structured environment.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I got the impression she did one hour lesson EACH DAY for four days instead of just one one hour lesson for the whole holiday. To me, that sounds just about right.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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abc, ah - you could be right. I read it as one 1 hour lesson for the whole of the time there! Megamum?
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abc, Correct, 1 hr on Monday, another hour on Tuesday, another on Wednesday and another on Thursday - is that clear enough?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Megamum wrote: |
| abc, Correct, 1 hr on Monday, another hour on Tuesday, another on Wednesday and another on Thursday - is that clear enough? |
I'm sorry to break the bad news but unless each lesson is with a different top-grade instructor, each specialising in a different aspect of ski technique, you're wasting your time & money 
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Red Leon, why is it a waste of time? as a fairly early stage skier Megamum would benefit from lessons from any qualified instructor. Why do you recon a beginner/intermediate needs a different "top-grade" instructor?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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skimottaret, I gather the cold is still affecting the brain. Hope you get well soon 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Red Leon, yep, agree with that, except I'd take issue in that each top-grade instructor should actually specialise in a different turn and be required to pass competency diplomas in each, before being selected to teach exclusively the one they did best at
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Frosty the Snowman, cold better now thanks i take it you mean Red Leon, was being facetious and refering to our friend from the emerald isle?
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You know it makes sense.
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skimottaret,
Glad to hear you're up to speed.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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skimottaret, do you mean me or johnboy?
You can only claim to be from the emerald isle if you were born there. Anyone else is just a blow in.
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Poster: A snowHead
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Does that make you a blow-out, then?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Hey Gang, thanks for the positive comments. Haven't been away sulking,,, just working. For a ski bum like me, summer must be used to financially support my winter passion. Free time is short and I just don't have much of it for posting, but as long as I'm apparently not viewed here as a snake oil salesman I'll continue to when I can and not consider it a wasted effort.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Leon,,, not sure I understand the basis of the jab, but I will suggest to everyone that all lessons and coaches are not created equal. At least here in the states you can end up with some pretty incompetent instructors, because there's a heap of them around. If they don't have a full understanding of the technical aspects of the sport they won't have a concept of how to set their students on a course that will take them to truly high skill levels. Most instructors here need serious instructing themselves. Kind of sad,,, but it's the reality.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
skimottaret, do you mean me or johnboy?
You can only claim to be from the emerald isle if you were born there. Anyone else is just a blow in. |
neither i was refering to LT... I am a plastic paddy meself, guess im just a blow in.....
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I think that if you're committed, and get lessons, and practice your drills, it is quite possible to make significant improvements up to a fairly high standard with only six days skiing a year. A huge part of skiing is confidence, and if you have that, but some humility at the same time (a rare combination admittedly), then you'll progress.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
A huge part of skiing is confidence
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Kramer, and I can get that over the counter at the local chemist.....yes?
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FastMan, good to see you back
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Most instructors here need serious instructing themselves. Kind of sad,,, but it's the reality.
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so true
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FastMan,
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Most instructors here [US not sH ] need serious instructing themselves.
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Interesting and telling observation, but I suspect one that could apply to the tier who teach most of the beginners in quite a few countries. Do you think the PSIA1/CSIA1/BASI Level 1 standard is generally sufficient to instruct beginners or do you feel that a higher cert is required to properly get across the fundamentals? Is having been a competent racer important to be able to teach intermediates well or does it become important only if teaching more advanced skiers?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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slikedges, not much point in being an instructor who is/was a racer if you're not a good teacher.
Thankfully the likes of Fastman and Martin Bell are good teachers, but that doesn't mean all racers would be good.
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slikedges, at the palcsit slope i worked at years ago, we used to employ the highest qualified instructor available to teach the beginners groups, the thinking being that the clients would gat a solid foundation and if this was correct a lesser qualified instructor couldn't stuff things up as badly
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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slikedges, I think it depends on the aspirations of the student. Many go to lessons just to learn enough to get down the hill, and are satisfied with that. Their skills will never progress much beyond the average intermediate level that represents the majority of the skiing population. I suppose for those people the lower grade instructor can serve the bill adequately. But for those students who have their sites set on greater goals, it's of immeasurable importance to replace Joe-know-nothing instructor with a true professional who has a clear understanding of the technical principles of the sport, and possesses a sound teaching methodology to help guide students to the upper skill levels they desire to acquire.
Here in the US, the average PSIA level 1 instructor just doesn't have the goods to provide that. Many are stuck on the intermediate plateau themselves; limited ability to manage turn shape,,, poor balance skills,,, an inability to vary transitions on demand, ugly edging skills, very dependant on single default turn types. These folks working with beginners and intermediates have no concept of how to direct their students to high skill levels, because they've yet to discover how to achieve it in their own skiing. Many don't even know what the picture is suppose to look like. All they have is the basic school lesson plan which they administer in blind by-the-numbers fashion.
CEM, I like the philosophy of the school you used to work at. Strong fundamental are the foundations upon which great skiing is built.
Wear The Fox Hat, you're right. Not all racers are cut out to be future teachers. They need to have the passion, the people skills, a genuine interest in seeing their students achieve their goals, an ability to make the complicated simple to comprehend and learn, to be able to adapt and shift approaches when need calls. It's just not in everyone's personal makeup. But I will say, for those who hear the calling, and have the needed personal tools, a racing background is a valuable asset. There is probably no better training ground for a new coach/instructor than having gone through a multi year racing training program. Racing is all about building solid skill fundamentals, and racers train and drill these fundamentals 7 days a week for years, till they're coming out their ears. They've learned all the skills,,, all the drills. They understand the applications of all the technical variations, and have them at their disposal. Most can very easily jump into coaching mode in an instance, because the progressions are all clearly embedded in their brains via years of training within the system. The training these racers have had, the hours they've committed to the learning the technical aspects of the sport, would be almost impossible to duplicate for a new hire instructor coming to the profession lacking this intense, multi year training background.
Sad part is, at least in the US, most racers do not go into PSIA instructing. They come from such an intense training background, the idea of working with people who are not highly motivated to learn to ski at such levels, or within such a limited contact with students environment, does not stimulate their interest. If they do go into teaching it's often within the realm from which they came,,, racing. That was my path for many years. Just recently I've decided to try working with the recreational level skier who has the desire to shoot for high skill levels, but not the opportunity for access to programs that provide that. I think such opportunity represents a long overlooked void in the sport. Guys and gals,,, what do you think? Am I all wet?
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FastMan, I fully agree. I think that the lower levels are adequate for those who want to learn enough to get down the hill, but that these instructors may not have served their clients well if the clients decide in the future to aim for a higher skill level. Thing is of course that most won't know till they've skied a bit how far they'll want to go. Also there just aren't enough high level instructor around and so they're much less easy to come by and much more expensive. Ideally, yes, we'd have someone like you for all our ski teaching, but as things are it just isn't practicable. That doesn't mean however that I don't commend you for trying. I'd certainly like to ski with you at some point, no doubt after I've ironed in some more of my bad habits!!
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Just recently I've decided to try working with the recreational level skier who has the desire to shoot for high skill levels, but not the opportunity for access to programs that provide that. I think such opportunity represents a long overlooked void in the sport. Guys and gals,,, what do you think? Am I all wet?
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I have no doubt there's a market for that kind of service. So you could do very well steping up to fill that void.
Though I might hazard to guess the number of skier want to go through such intense programe would be small, due mostly to limit of time, and only to a lesser degree, limit of funds. When I look back to the one sport I did very well, the training was during high school, when I had no life of my own. 6 days a week for 6 years! Sad, perhaps, but I simply don't see myself putting in that kind of time for another sport as an adult. I do wonder how many adults can be so focus in their recreational activities.
As one of my teammate puts it "I was highly focus and progressing very well. Then, I discovered girls!"
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Also there just aren't enough high level instructor around and so they're much less easy to come by and much more expensive. |
I know plenty... that don't work as instructors because they could not support their families on the pitiful fraction of lesson fees that large resort companies, with monopolies on instruction at a resort, choose to pay to the instructor doing the work....
If we want more high level instructors then a change of process may be in order...
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Poster: A snowHead
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| slikedges wrote: |
| Also there just aren't enough high level instructor around and so they're much less easy to come by and much more expensive. |
They are around, but are maybe hard to spot if you happen to be beginner or intermediate. I'm not sure that they are all that expensive in terms of cash compared to the potential gain, but as you say there is a price to pay in terms of time and application especially as you move from 'spot' instruction to an ongoing coaching type relationship. But it's worth it 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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david@mediacopy, it's depends on your take, and it's relative, but in my opinion there aren't many around who I'd consider to be high level instructors eg of the calibre of FastMan. When it comes to price, just as an example, pvt lessons with a British ski school ISTD cost about £60 per hour - say 3 hours a day for 5 days is £900/week - 10x more than the £90 many pay for a week's ESF ski school. Who did you use, how much did you pay and over what period/how many sessions? 
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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slikedges, I have skied with a recently retired world cup racer for around 30 euros an hour. He was not quite as good as Fastman for coaching me and my needs... but he had a great eye and excellent understanding of modern technical skiing... and he would certainly be a great example for those who learn better by"see and do" than I do. He is however quite fussy - he wants you to perfect each technical skill to a certain level before he will move on. So as I see it the issue is more of a student being "open" to the coach in this sort of situation... very few really want to have their skiing dissected in this manner... There is almost certainly a very good reason he chooses to not teach adults other than ski instructors(my coffee stop hotel hosts told me this before my lesson and I was scared witless by the description - but had been assured by the instructor that organised the lesson that I would enjoy it)
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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little tiger, who and where?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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slikedges, PM on the way
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| FastMan wrote: |
All they have is the basic school lesson plan which they administer in blind by-the-numbers fashion.
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I wonder what proportion of recipe teaching is founded on a lack of class management skills as opposed to lack of fundamental understanding.
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slikedges, I'll PM later.
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| comprex wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
All they have is the basic school lesson plan which they administer in blind by-the-numbers fashion.
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I wonder what proportion of recipe teaching is founded on a lack of class management skills as opposed to lack of fundamental understanding. |
I have to say that I have never done that, but I can see that as the group gets larger, then the temptation is greater to achieve some results.
Althought almost invariably everyone needs work on fore-aft balance in the first instance, so that could be seen as formulaic.
With the best will in the world, unless people are willing to accept a Gordon Ramsey style of instruction, then personalised attention and feedback in a large group is always going to be a challenge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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little tiger, david@mediacopy, ta very much
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| comprex wrote: |
| FastMan wrote: |
All they have is the basic school lesson plan which they administer in blind by-the-numbers fashion.
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I wonder what proportion of recipe teaching is founded on a lack of class management skills as opposed to lack of fundamental understanding. |
Again, interesting thought. I suspect many largely part-time lower qualified instructors might fall victim to this, while I'd guess the more fuller time higher qualified, as long as they've still got their enthusiasm for ski teaching, wouldn't be so rigid. I think one has to stick to the script when lacking in experience and knowledge, but if one has a good fundamental understanding, I'd hope one would eventually start to improvise towards the delivery of a flexible both reactive and dynamic lesson.
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FAQ
That sounds good to me 
