 Poster: A snowHead
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| easiski wrote: |
| eng_ch, that's polite in France. If you make the effort to speak their language they will return the compliment and make the effort to speak yours! I agree it can be irritating though when you know your fench is 10x better than their english! |
No question! I just find it faintly amusing each time as it ceases to be a language exercise and becomes one in stubbornness! Little things please little minds 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| slikedges wrote: |
| easiski, by autonomous I meant independant and without direct external restriction or control, ie not as a stagiere. I hear what you say about the French but I'm guessing the whole basis for the development of the Euro Group system in the first place was that there was such a profusion of excellent French skiers wishing to become instructors that they had to have some kind of bar to entry... |
...in order to keep the prices up (and never mind that some of those skiers could give perfectly adequate lessons to the average punter and may not possess as much natural ability for any other line of work).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ski wrote: |
easiski,
| Quote: |
the language test for BASI instructors isn't!
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I think they have recently tightened up. At ISIA level there is now a mandatory workbook. You can still gain an exemption - with an appropriate 'A' level, for instance. |
Very glad to hear it!
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slikedges the austrian exams are even harder than the French. They have to ski off (GS, tougher than eurotest) to get into the college to do the Final Staetlicher(sp?) training and exams. Last I heard, about 250 candidates for 65 places every time! the Italian Maestro is of the same standard, and also oversubscribed. what the Euro group ISTD has done is to ensure that anyone wanting to be a ski teacher, does really want to be a ski teacher, and is not just pratting around because they're a decent skier and want to show off in the pub! It's no longer worth taking the Grade 3 unless you intend to go right through the system. It certainly isn't worth being a ski teacher if you want to ski (because you hardly ever do), so the whole thing has become much more serious, which IMO is a good thing.
laundryman, You should have been on the glacier today, when I had to nurse a terrified (to the point of being unable to work his legs and body almost at all) novice down the Puy Salie. The point of being a decent skier and having lots of other skills from all the other parts of the exams and the external modules etc. etc. is that you can cope with these sorts of really difficult situations. (and to be sure, having been doing it for 30+ years helps) "...in order to keep the prices up " You've surely shot yourelf in the foot, since it's not the french ski schools that are so expensive. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, as to the first point, good for you - I mean that sincerely. I've never tried to suggest that there is not a role for excellently qualified and experienced instructors.
As to the second point, "in order to keep prices up" refers to prices in France, whatever the nationality of the providers. I haven't made any distinction on that score in any of my posts on this thread, though it's not the first time that you have implied I have! Admittedly, that might make my whole contribution off topic. 
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easiski, but in Austria (and I think in Italy (though only if Italian  )) you do not need to be ISTD in order to instruct autonomously
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slikedges, I'm pretty sure that you can't be an independent in any of the eurogroup countries without ISTD or older equivalent. Of course many of us oldies did not complete all things that are now in the ISTD, because they weren't in the exams at the time. However we all had to do the high mountain safety, as an addition. the standard is much higher now thatn when I did it in 1990, but then the standard of the average holiday skier is much higher too. I think the percentage improvement relative to the average remains fairly constant. (Only an impression of course). In mountain villages there will always be exceptions made for locals to some degree - they're all related to the mayor, after all.
laundryman, the point I was making was that prices are not universally high in France - it's only the British Ski Schools that are so expensive, and that's market forces and nothing to do with the qualifications. It costs a lot more to take a riding lesson in Britain than to take a ski lesson with most ski schools.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| laundryman wrote: |
But ...  ... maintain that prices across the board would be lower if the qualification bar were not set so high (or if legislation based on the qualification were abolished). I think you agree with that, having talked about 'protection'.
Where we differ is on the desirability of that. |
Having seen far too many poor ski instructors over the years I wouldn't support lowering the qualification threshold ('Ski instructors are dumbed down' - a headline in the Daily Mail perhaps?), even if it did lead to a larger number of instructors prepared to charge lower prices.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| Having seen far too many poor ski instructors over the years |
In what countries?
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| I wouldn't support lowering the qualification threshold ('Ski instructors are dumbed down' - a headline in the Daily Mail perhaps?), even if it did lead to a larger number of instructors prepared to charge lower prices. |
Do skiers in North America need legislation to protect them from under-qualified ski instructors?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| rob@rar wrote: |
| Having seen far too many poor ski instructors over the years |
In what countries?
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France, Italy and Austria.
| laundryman wrote: |
| Quote: |
| I wouldn't support lowering the qualification threshold ('Ski instructors are dumbed down' - a headline in the Daily Mail perhaps?), even if it did lead to a larger number of instructors prepared to charge lower prices. |
Do skiers in North America need legislation to protect them from under-qualified ski instructors? |
I don't know, never skied in North America. What qualification is required to teach in the US and in Canada?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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easiski, I'm told you can teach as an anwarter in Austria your whole career if you like so it's not like stagiere.
rob@rar, you can teach on a BASI III or PSIA 2 or a CSIA 2, ie sub-ISIA. What I don't know is if your status is equivalent to a Stagiere, ie that there is a de facto limit on how long you can do it for before having to get ISIA certification.
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My impression of the lower level Canadian instructors is that their skiing skills do not need to be so great, but their interpersonal and communication skills are valued very highly.
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You know it makes sense.
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slikedges, If you're an anwarter then you're only paid a very small proportion of what a Stadlischer is paid - pay peanuts, get monkeys. there are different lengths of time in different places for apprentices to get their full certification - the word stagiare is only, of course used in france and simply means either apprentice or trainee. BTW I was talking to Julia today, who is german, an austrian landeschilehrerin who works for a britsh/italian ski school on a french livret de formation!
laundryman, The price of private lessons in the Oisans starts at about 32 euros per hour (ecole de ski busonniere in SC) up to the most enormous 60 euros an hour (me and the European Ski school for 3-4 peeps at once). I can't say how much Stuart Adamson charges in ADH, but probably more! At any rate, I think it's outrageous of you to think these sort of prices are outrageous. the ESF here (and prbably everywhere) charge about 35 p/h for 1-2 peeps. You can come here and book Mark (grade 2 Brit with eurotest) for that much. that's only abut £20. How much per hour do you pay the fitter (I don't say mechanic) in your local garage?????
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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easiski, I've never stinted on lessons and I've never described any instructor's prices as outrageous. However, I do believe that the market mechanism is the best way of setting a fair price and ensuring the optimum allocation of people to jobs, for the benefit of society as a whole - not restricting supply by law.
Of course I'm not the first person to think so: here is Adam Smith on the subject:
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| The property which every man has in his own labour, as it is the original foundation of all other property, so it is the most sacred and inviolable. The patrimony of a poor man lies in the strength and dexterity of his hands; and to hinder him from employing this strength and dexterity in what manner he thinks proper without injury to his neighbour is a plain violation of this most sacred property. It is a manifest encroachment upon the just liberty both of the workman and of those who might be disposed to employ him. As it hinders the one from working at what he thinks proper, so it hinders the others from employing whom they think proper. To judge whether he is fit to be employed may surely be trusted to the discretion of the employers whose interest it so much concerns. The affected anxiety of the law-giver lest they should employ an improper person is evidently as impertinent as it is oppressive. |
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Kramer, that's the impression I got too.
At a major resort, with the CSIA L1 (and I believe L2), you will only teach beginners (and if you're lucky, occassionally some intermediate parallel skiers). They know this is the score, and their courses seem to be well aligned for their purpose. As you say, the skiing level is not excesive, you don't have to be Maier or Eberherter - BUT, you have to be able to ski what you will teach very, very proficiently. Now, intermediate parallel will not, under any circumstances earn you a pass in the Eurotest! 
However, moving onto Ray Hockley and laundryman's points - they want an instructor who can demonstrate what they will be skiing/learning, can analyse what their faults are, and effectively communicate what they must do to eliminate these faults. Now I presume neither Ray not laundryman are at this early stage, but probably at a stage where a CSIA L3 would certainly be adequete! Horses for courses as they say. I would now be fairly confident teaching/instructing a beginner or second week skier, but I wouldn't even dream of instructing someone in deep powder (I can't ski it well myself!  ). That's where a multi-tiered system is good. Of course, it would be wonderful if every ski instructor was good enough for the eurotest, but for most people in ski schools, that level of ability is detached from them and completely irrelevent.
At the risk of having gone from a good first half of a post into the Eurotest-bashing style, I will again move away back to the other aspects. Quite right easiski that it's not the only part. But surely at the very basic, entry level of skiing, the actual teaching side of things is more important? With of course assessment that technique at that level is up to the standard...
I've kind of lost myself in the whole meandering nature of my post. Apologies if anyone else gets lost in there...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I thought I'd forgotten something as I made my way through the maze (probably only to come out where I started!).
Sorry, but it's another 'dig' (albeit slight) at the Eurotest. Doing my CSIA L1, most people in the group realised that we needed to adopt a different skiing style entirely for 'intermediate parallel' to what we'd usually be skiing (the course conductor for the second half demonstrated the huge difference for us), we also realised that none of us could ski snow-ploughs (sorry, wedges ) very well. Let's look at some very bad graphical illustrations:
- - - - - - ^ - - - Approx. level of average CSIA L1 skier prior to course.
^ - - - - - - - - - Wedge turns
- - ^ - - - - - - - Intermediate parallel
- - - - - - - - ^ - Level required to pass Eurotest (probably absolute minimum)
Now, consider this. The adjustment between our level taking the CSIA L1 and the level skiing we'd be expected to teach is fairly large. And it wasn't, I have to admit, the easiest transition to make. Whilst I accept that Eurotest (ISTD) skiers will be better skiers, and may possibly find it easier to adapt, this poses two questions:
1) Where on the scale are the vast majority of ski lessons? Being so far below natural ability, will the ISTD skiers be too far ahead of their charges? (Goes back a previous point about most British ski instructors being able to remember what it was like not to be able to ski and to learn).
2) Are they going to be happy/satisfied teaching at that level? Will their enthusiasm etc. take a hit due to this?
This is where I point out (or re-emphasise) that I have no problem with the Eurotest, or its selective nature. The likelihood of me ever passing it is quite low (unless I do ski racing with the RN), however, the likelihood of me ever wanting to instruct at the top level is zilch. If I ever do decide to use my qualification, and advance through the qualifications, I wouldn't want to teach above low-mid intermediate. I will also re-emphasise my support of a multi-tier system, just as in education: teacher-lecturer-professor (very basic progression admittidly). A GCSE student does not need a professor to teach them - infact, my old school had a number of teachers with PhDs, most were very good, but a couple were just on such a different, higher intellectual plane, that most students couldn't understand, and the teachers couldn't comprehend them not understanding.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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skisimon, this "lower level for lower level" argument is a common one to hear, but I, personally think that beginners need the BEST teachers and not the worst. the first day/week on skis is the most vital in your whole skiing life - it will literally make or break your decision to become a skier - so you need the best. Now it's true that not all ski teachers are good, and that not all good teachers are good skiers, however, with an incident like the day before yesterday I seriously doubt that anyone below ISIA could have coped. Just because you are capable of passing a higher level exam in no way means that you'll be unhappy teaching beginners. One of the best skiers on this mountain (Serge Primatesta, former WC skier) teaches only children and adult beginners by choice. Variety is what you need in teaching, any level becomes boring if that's all you teach.
laundryman, "I've never stinted on lessons and I've never described any instructor's prices as outrageous. However, I do believe that the market mechanism is the best way of setting a fair price and ensuring the optimum allocation of people to jobs, for the benefit of society as a whole - not restricting supply by law."
For the third time in this thread: the government only say you have to be qualified - what's involved in the qualifications is a matter for the governing body of skiing (ENSA in France and BASI in the UK). Neither government is involved in these decisions.
You say you've never stinted on lessons and have no problem about the market forces but at the top of this page wrote " As to the second point, "in order to keep prices up" refers to prices in France, whatever the nationality of the providers."
You appear to be disagreeing with yourself!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't think lesons are more exoensive in France than elsewhere. I thought our lessons in Whistler were quite pricey, and I was certainly not satisfied with my tuition.
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easiski,
trade body sets overly restrictive qualification standard + government adopts it in law = government prohibits consenting adults from doing business.
I can't make head nor tail of your "appear to be disagreeing with yourself" comment.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| trade body sets overly restrictive qualification standard + government adopts it in law = government prohibits consenting adults from doing business. |
so there's no place for any sort of regulation?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, er ... that's not what the above says.
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easiski, you won't win this argument with laundryman, as you are arguing practicalities whereas he is arguing philosophy. As you don't go over to Apres much you won't have seen his "previous"; as befits a true son of Thatcher and Friedman this is just another skirmish in his regular crusade to convert everyone to extreme libertarianism. Regulation is just a red rag to his bull. He's entirely self-consistent provided that you are only concerned about the self - the freedom to do whatever you want provided you accept the consequences that may arise. It's as inappropriate here as in most other places it crops up.
Re the eurotest, what my recent course showed up was that the difference between skiing "well enough for the Eurotest" and just "well" may be small in appearance, but very large in effect, although mostly those who skied with noticeable eccentricities recorded fairly poor times. Having said that though I found it quite scary that I was faster than several BASI IIs, and in one case very significantly. For the top international qualification (and remember that ISTD is essentially that, until you get to the even higher trainer levels), it seems to me that the Eurotest is an entirely justifiable component, just as is a mountain safety module, and an off-piste module - provided there are the appropriate teaching requirements too. There may be an argument that the qualification level is a bit too high, but if there are adequate passes each year, then it's probably about right....the supply and demand do seem to match, for those that give these ideas credence . Given current trends, how long before there is a Park requirement (assuming there's not one already)?
Back to the basic point being argued here, the argument that lower level learners only need lower level instruction. Maybe. But I think it's important that the teacher knows where the techniques being taught lead, can pick up on errors, and most importantly know what the effects of those errors are. While I've not seen it much on the hill, I suspect that demonstrating the consequences of doing something wrong is important - and that requires skill (both to make the mistake on demand, and also recover from it). If you can sing reasonably, try deliberately singing out of tune - I understand it's quite difficult (the first part of that task is where I fail miserably). While it's not (or at least shouldn't be ) too difficult to demonstrate a reasonable snowplough, I would be surprised if adequate demonstration of techniques beyond the first couple of weeks is satisfied by someone who couldn't have made a decent crack at the Eurotest sometime in there career (phrased there to possibly open a door for those who may only take up teaching later in life).
And picking up on an earlier point, I do agree that teaching adult beginners is probably best done by someone who also learned as an adult - if you learned at age 5 you can't possibly know (other than by detailed observation - and I suspect you need to be a VERY talented teacher to do that) what the adult is going through when trying to work out why their various planks and associate body parts are doing something completely different from what a) you're sure you instructed them to do and b) what you thought they were doing.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| easiski, you won't win this argument with laundryman, as you are arguing practicalities whereas he is arguing philosophy. As you don't go over to Apres much you won't have seen his "previous"; as befits a true son of Thatcher and Friedman this is just another skirmish in his regular crusade to convert everyone to extreme libertarianism. Regulation is just a red rag to his bull. He's entirely self-consistent provided that you are only concerned about the self - the freedom to do whatever you want provided you accept the consequences that may arise. It's as inappropriate here as in most other places it crops up. |
I am also arguing practicalities, but from a wider perspective. Far from being concerned about the self, my view has looked at the effect of regulation on ski instruction on society as a whole. As a physical scientist, you should understand that you seldom get the right answers if you focus purely on the system and neglect its surroundings.
So, setting a very high bar for the "right" to practise ski instruction implies:
Narrow view
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Every ski lesson is likely to be very good
Wide view
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There will be fewer ski lessons because there will be fewer instructors and higher prices;
Some potentially good ski instructors will have to take less skilled work, or be unemployed - thus be less useful to society or actually a drain;
People who pay the above-market rate for lessons will have less money to spend on other things (to the detriment of themselves and the providers of those other things).
This is quite apart from the "impertinence" of the government in constraining the buyer's choice and the "oppression" in preventing a person from practising a trade for which buyers judge them fit (Adam Smith's words in quotes).
Has the sky fallen in N. American ski resorts yet?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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laundryman,
I think there is a far more economically free market in European ski instruction than in American.
In Europe different ski schools can and do compete in the same resort on price numbwer of nstructors and qualification of instructors. In America my understanding is that most ski schools are monopoly providers in the resort and usually owned by the resort. Certainly the prices are higher and the instructors seem to see less of the money and rely on tips.
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T Bar, I think that's right. My point was about use of instructors with lesser qualifications and relative absence (I think) of government regulation.
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You know it makes sense.
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GrahamN, A freestyle (park) module can be taken as an alternative for the performance part of the BASI ski teacher qualification instead of doing APC 1.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| easiski wrote: |
| but I, personally think that beginners need the BEST teachers and not the worst. |
But surely the best teacher may not necessarily be the best skier. But of course, I whole heartedly agree that they should be very competent and practically flawless in the skill that they are teaching.
In maths I could very competently teach, for example, trigonometry to a GCSE standard. I could explain the history of it, what we us it for and the processes we use it for. I could also let the students into the little remembering things, like SohCahToa. I believe I could equally be able to look at what they are doing, and if they've gone wrong, tell them where, suggest why and give them some ideas on how to get it right. Then make sure this works. If it doesn't, become more exact, and tell them how to correct their error instead of suggest how to correct it. I could do this because I understand the concept and am practically flawless when it comes to trigonometry at that level (as one would hope as I'll soon be navigating a warship in the RN). On the other hand, I could neither do, nor teach, anything to do with trigonometry which would be found on a third year of a maths degree.
I have no problems with the bar being set very high, as GrahamN has said, there doesn't appear to be a shortage of adequetly qualified instructors in the Eurotest areas. However, with the numbers of people who suggest N America to beginners, does it have that much of an affect at the very 'snowroots' of the sport. (See what I've done there? grassroots - snowroots ). Whilst I wouldn't say that my lessons with the ESF were bad, they weren't taught very well. The Italian ski school seem infinitely better at this, so perhaps the French need to look at how they assess teaching skills? It's obvious that BASI seem to have very high all-round standards, as I'd say the Italians do, but do the French concentrate too much on skiing ability to the detriment of teaching ability? I wouldn't know. If anyone's been through the French system (unlikely though it probably is here), please enlighten us. I can't comment on Austria as I've never been there so can't have taken any lessons (I'll have to have a go when I'm in Zell at Easter, just to compare!).
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Poster: A snowHead
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Does anyone know what a Grade 1 ISTD instructor makes for working 6-7 days a week for the whole ski season? Not as much as you think would be my guess.
I dont think they are that overpriced, if anything the ski schools skim a large portion just for being "british" or mainly english speaking. I sent my daughter through the ESF system and she loved it......
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the "do lower level learners only need lower level instruction" topic, would you want to be taught golf by an 18 handicaper who is a good communicator? Not me, i would want a pro that could shoot consistently in the 70's and has mastered the technique to demonstrate a good swing.
i was on a BASI training course last week and hardest day was trying to perfect demonstrating plough and plough parallel turns. The best skier in the group, a 17 year old who races for England fell asleep after the lesson totally exhausted.
It seemed to me that people training to be instructors work very hard to not only be good technical skiers but also to be able to demonstrate the basics correctly....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Roy Hockley wrote: |
| Back to the point. When you take lessons from a club pro, you are not taking lessons from "The Great White Shark", I am not a golfer and therefor cant remember his name |
I'd always assumed that the Eurotest was the golfing equivalent of the Club Pro rather than Greg Norman? Maybe someone who has passed the Eurotest could comment? When I was on a 'race' course a few weeks back there were a bunch of 3s and 2s training for the Eurotest plus a junior racer (competes at FIS level). There was a big performance gap between the FIS racer and the trainee instructors who were close to the Eurotest level (about 5 seconds on a 45 seconds course). A vaguely recall reading the Eurotest was roughly equal to 140 FIS points - compare that to the FIS points that junior racers are achieving in FIS and Europa Cup competitions.
While the Eurotest might seem to be an impossible dream for recreational skiers and aspirant instructors, I don't think it's that high a demand for skiers with a true race pedigree.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| T Bar, I think that's right. My point was about use of instructors with lesser qualifications and relative absence (I think) of government regulation. |
But since lessons are more expensive in the USA your argument that higher qualifications = higher price doesn't hold water. the price is not high in europe on the whole (although you can find places to pay more). since PSIA full cert only has equivalence to ISIA and not ISTD - I don't see where you're coming from. You keep arguing that high qualifications lead to a high price, and yet you say you don't stint on lessons, and can give no evidence that the price is higher in the eurogroup countries (indeed it's lower).
there is no shortage of ski teachers in europe, so obviously the bar is not too high.
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skisimon, I think the French do more theoretical and classroom work than BASI throughout their courses. It seems to be a cultural thing. OTOH did you compare like with like? groups or privates? So, for anyone who's actually interested; here is the page (in english) of the ensa exam system syllabus and information.
http://www.ensa.jeunesse-sports.fr/anglais/formations/ski/index.htm
GrahamN, Excellent post. Just this week I've had two beginners who were taught to snowplough incorrectly - knees together, very crouched and huge edge angles, of course they struggled to turn - poor quality teaching and/or this very serious fault not spotted and corrected. I don't know who taught them, but I'd like to have his/her guts for garters! Clearly not a national!
Roy Hockley, since the eurotest is nowhere near WC level I don't quite get your point?
If you see Grade 3s, Grade 2,s and Grade 1s all doing snowplough turns down the same piste it would be immediatley apparent who is who. 
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easiski, there may be other factors affecting the price in the USA, such as the local monopolies T Bar mentioned. If a higher level of qualification were demanded there, and enforced by law, I would expect the price to rise still further. Conversely, if controls were relaxed in France, I would expect them to drop. Since you said this was all about "protection", I presume you think the same.
Whether or not there is a shortage will depend on your point of view. If anyone has ever taken fewer lessons than they would, on the grounds of price, then to them there is a shortage. There are threads here regularly with people making quite nice calculations on the number/type of lessons they can afford, so I think that proves the point.
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laundryman, There are more would be ski instructors every year than jobs, not all ski teachers can get jobs, so I don't see a problem with numbers. Why do you keep talking and France please be accurate and say eurogroup or europe - or are you just majorly anti-french? If unqualifieds were allowed to teach it would be back to the bad old days when no-one could actually make a proper living or career out of it. then, in this day and age, the clients would undoubtedly sue the school/teacher if there was an accident. there would be even more dangerous skiers out there and even more accidents. there are enough hazzards on the slopes already without going back to the 1920's but with 2007 skiing numbers, pistes and modern skis.
I really think it's quite offensive that you clearly think prices of around £30 - £40 per hour for private instruction is too much - when did you last see a garage that charged less than £30 per hour? Why should we be not allowed to earn a decent living, because that's what you constantly imply. We charge too much (according to you) because we indulge ourselves by taking too many exams in order to actually have the career of our choice? Or are you just jealous?
the USA will always be more expenisve because they are greedy and money orientated, and yes - if all instructors there were level IV trainers, no doubt they'd put the prices up, but it's just not the case in europe, and I don't see why you think it is. You are legally allowed to hire someone who isn't qualified to teach you - take him/her on holiday with you and go for it - so long as you don't pay them for "teaching".
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Roy Hockley,
A club pro has to have a handicap of 4 or less I think it is before he can become a pro, possibly about the golfing equivalent of the Eurotest, certainly a fairly stiff test of golf.
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rob@rar, Georgie is currently on 88 points in GS, you can look at the times for the two races that average out to this value on the FIS website. He was about 6s per run slower than the winner on a 60s course, WC level would be a couple of seconds faster still.
Anyone who has had points below 100 is exempt from needing to take the Eurotest anyway
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