 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Despite Bergfex forecasting a sunny day in the valley today, we are getting heavy snow here down to 700 meters in the Kitzbühel area
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Looking like we’ll get about 15cm tomorrow - 600m
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@Cacciatore, where are you?
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@kitenski, about 20km from Dachstein West, Austria…in a small village, about halfway up a mountain (not a ski resort, but great for touring in the wild!).
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Flew over a lump of the alps today, a lot more snow than 2 weeks ago. There was even a dusting on the tops of outlying hills. Not sure there is much more snow on the horizon (at least not for the northern Austrian area) but it should be enough for a base combined with snow making for resorts to open on time. Who knows what weather December will bring but I guess much less chance now of Christmas skiing being restricted to a few white ribbons on green hillsides.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@munich_irish, there’s a fair amount of snow forecast tomorrow for Tirol and further east, northern Italy too, though granted it’s falling on grass below 2000m at the moment.
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@Scarlet, yes a bit more today but it looks drier with a few spots of rain / snow though staying reasonably cool for the next 10 days. Often Föhn storms at this time of year but no sign of that at the moment. There is a suggestion of more snow early December but too far away for anything but speculation, which is the whole point of this thread 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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@südtirolistdeutsch, how much fell up the mountain?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Just watching Alpenpanorama on German Channel 3Sat and there looks to be a lot of Austrian resorts getting some decent snowfall this morning.
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there was enough up on the stubital Gletscher yesterday to have fun but those crevasses aren't fully bridged yet.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Mother hucker wrote: |
| @südtirolistdeutsch, how much fell up the mountain? |
I’m not sure, but most of the snow is supposed to come anyways. Kitzsteinhorn can get up to 70 centimeters today according to Bergfex, with the 2000 high skiing mountains getting up to 30cm (like Saalbach, Kitzbühel, Bramberg, Zell am Ziller, and Zell am See).
The original forecast was for us to get 8cm in the valley (800 meters), but the forecast shifted to a few degrees warmer in. the afternoon which would give us lots of rain. In any case it is currently snowing heavy in the valley.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| südtirolistdeutsch wrote: |
| Mother hucker wrote: |
| @südtirolistdeutsch, how much fell up the mountain? |
I’m not sure, but most of the snow is supposed to come anyways. Kitzsteinhorn can get up to 70 centimeters today according to Bergfex, with the 2000 high skiing mountains getting up to 30cm (like Saalbach, Kitzbühel, Bramberg, Zell am Ziller, and Zell am See).
The original forecast was for us to get 8cm in the valley (800 meters), but the forecast shifted to a few degrees warmer in. the afternoon which would give us lots of rain. In any case it is currently snowing heavy in the valley.
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Update: it has now begun to rain. It's very frustrating what a difference a single degree makes
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 22-11-22 16:50; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Another 15cm overnight and the next storm coming tomorrow night… #snowvember
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@südtirolistdeutsch, still early in winter at least some base forming up the hill
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Thought I might jot down my thoughts on how early season seems to have been shaping up for the Alps. My overall summary would be "not as good as it looks". Would be interested to see if others agree / disagree.
November seems to have been a "steady" month, with gradual accumulation of snow at altitude, and increasingly at lower levels too. That sounds like what you expect for the time of year, but it contrasts with some of the emotional rollercoasters of recent early seasons, either with weeks of high pressure and lack of precipitation, or with a season-defining major dump for certain parts of the Alps.
On the plus side, we generally aren't looking at green webcams, or a "ribbons of artificial" scenario. The pretty white scenes have led to generally optimistic murmurings across the snow conditions forum threads! On the minus side, much of the lower level snow is only a superficial covering preserved by current low temperatures, but not deep enough to easily prepare pistes, and vulnerable to thaw.
Looking ahead, the slow improvements look set to continue through the next week. Closer to and into December, GFS runs have been increasingly keen on quite a widespread cold spell - but fairly dry. Which basically means the current conditions may well be "frozen in place" for a couple of weeks. So if we're currently perhaps on par for the time if year (for the Alps as a whole), we may be lagging behind in a fortnight's time, when many ski areas will be looking to open up. It's by no means a disaster scenario, but it's far from vintage.
Where is doing well? Aside from the obvious high altitude suspects, the Dolomites are looking promising. They've done well from recent storms and their comprehensive snowmaking will be ideal for the upcoming cold spell. So, energy costs aside, I think this region is the frontrunner.
I think there is lots to be positive about in Austria too, with moderate recent / upcoming snowfalls plus good snowmaking opportunities ahead. Ditto for central northern Italy (Passo Tonale, Livigno...).
Further west, I'm not quite convinced by northern France or western Switzerland (Portes du Soleil, Gstaad, Tarentaise, Maurienne...). Hills may be white above 1200m (i.e. most skiing altitudes) but it is quite thin except much higher up (plus snowmaking tends to be less comprehensive than in Austria / eastern Italy, so it's harder to "paper over the cracks"). Most ski areas in the western Alps don't open until mid December onwards, so there is still time for things to improve.
That leaves the weakest quadrant, which is surely the SW Alps (southern French Alps plus southwestern Italian Alps). They've done the least well out of recent snowfalls. Sauze d'Oulx, Prato Nevoso, Pra-Loup, Serre Chevalier etc. These areas had an exceptionally dry 2021-22 season so will be hoping lightning doesn't strike twice.
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| denfinella wrote: |
Further west, I'm not quite convinced by northern France or western Switzerland (Portes du Soleil, Gstaad, Tarentaise, Maurienne...). Hills may be white above 1200m (i.e. most skiing altitudes) but it is quite thin except much higher up (plus snowmaking tends to be less comprehensive than in Austria / eastern Italy, so it's harder to "paper over the cracks"). Most ski areas in the western Alps don't open until mid December onwards, so there is still time for things to improve.
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The snow cover is significantly better in Verbier than at the same time last year and skiing this weekend will be very good. But last year we had a big dump early December, while the forecast looks pretty dry for the next couple of weeks. It does look very cold though so piste skiing will be fine.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Quote: |
it's far from vintage
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I think (from where I sit) that sounds about right, especially as "vintage" means unusually good. I'm hoping to do a gentle skin up the top of the valley on Friday and Monterosa's opening 2.12 so we're aiming to go across for that weekend. All good for us 
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It’s only the 23rd November !
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@Rob Mackley, basically season’s over. It‘s a write off.
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@Rob Mackley, precisely!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Snow depth %’s at 2500m
compared to average according to SLF
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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^yep and slightly further west I'd say it's bang on average....good base at 1800m, possible base forming at 1500m (10cm, more on the way), and there's another week until meteorlogical winter, and about 3-4 weeks from full lift opening, and it still won't even be christmas. Anyone booked to a low resort at christmas probably only has a 50/50 shot most years at skiing a full resort.
At the moment there is natural snow down to 1200, but no one expects that to last.....a few more top ups, with canons securing the base and it will be as good as anyone could expect this early in the season. No wait, it's actually still interseason for a while yet.
So we're on track.....it's not vintage (40-50cm at 1200m) and it's not a terrible start....of which there have been at least 3 in the last 7-8 years. I can only speak for PdS area / NW alps.
I better throw in some pictures before this becomes TLDR. Here's the Jura this morning..... while inner valleys (Haute Savoie) have more snow and a lower snowline.
So short term a top up tonight to 1400, and a better chance on mon-tues, maybe starting 1600m but dropping to 1000 or so.
Into Decemeber it continues to look quite different to previous years. Normally the vortex is ramping up and we enter a period of strong westerlies....which can be wet or dry depending on azores influence, but nearly always mild. Not the case this year, as we've already had 2 months of that (also unusual), and now with cross polar highs forming via Scandi and Pacific merge, below average cold is going to flow from the NE into europe.
GEM cross polar mean next week
ECM mean temp anomalies day 10
GEM mean pressure anmolies day 16----key here is the continued modelling of Scandi high regressing west to Greenland, potentially opening some northerly flow into a cold continent.
So as things stand there is little chance of mild and dry, or mild and wet.....two christmas killers low down. Far more likely that we see a sustained cold period with modest top ups....maybe more in the southern alps via jet stream.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Bang on the money about this being neither early season nor winter yet. Also about the realism required if you decide to head out in December. If you are fortunate enough to live close to the mountains this period can be lots of fun, if it snows early you can be enjoying the slopes even down to the valley floor from mid to late November and count your blessings (2017 springs to mind). Sometimes early December snow can be superb. Equally it can often be a frustrating wait watching high pressure establish itself and at least getting out hiking, running or biking. Or worse yet dreary rain. In really poor years this can sometimes extend into mid January (cue photos of helicopters ferrying in snow to cover the Hahnenkamm). But really a bit early to pull the rip cord at this stage I would suggest.
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| nozawaonsen wrote: |
| ......if it snows early you can be enjoying the slopes even down to the valley floor from mid to late November and count your blessings...... |
The flip-side as it were, is that this time of year, we often see rain in the valley, which can be heavy at times, but then the snow-line is 2,200 so simply jump in the car and out with the touring gear, and that's what we relish as there's far more accessible terrain at this time of year than the Spring as then the roads can often be still closed in places (N facing bends) due to snow still about etc
That's the other side of the valley and the Col de Granon in the middle, back in 2014 that was.
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You know it makes sense.
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Hehe, I was expecting to get replies along the lines of "it's only the 23rd of November!" and lo and behold...
I did say in my summary that I thought the Alps as a whole are currently "on par" for the time of year. But also that when you add in the dry(ish) forecast looking into December, we are likely to be "below par" by then.
I also note that weathertoski.co.uk's update this morning summarises as thus: "Overall it’s an improving situation in the Alps but, before we can say it’s a convincing start to the winter season, more snow will be needed, especially lower down." - which I would tend to agree with.
My post wasn't supposed to be a moan, or suggesting anyone rebook. I'm sorry if it came across that way.
@under a new name, @BobinCH, @polo, I think you all make good points about the current conditions and base forming.
@nozawaonsen, no-one (except you, in jest) said that this season is a write-off, or anything to that effect. You have an unpleasant tendency to mock other posters contributing to this thread, almost as if it challenges your authority. Perhaps that wasn't your intention, but I am far from the first person you have done it to, even if I may be one of the first to call it out.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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@denfinella, in all seriousness (I'm sure this was discussed before) resorts seem to have been trying to open earlier and earlier, presumably to increase revenue. I'm sure I read somewhere that many many years go resorts didn't really look to open until Jan, then they decided they were missing out on Xmas revenue so bought that forward, then some places started trying to open end of Nov/early Dec.
So loads of time for the ground to freeze & snow to fall - long term forecasts are very unreliable, so anything could happen, good, bad or indifferent! As ever, time will tell
Issues is (as we are starting to see) people booking early season holidays pre Xmas and starting to panic! I've booked flights to GVA for 18th Dec, I'm sure I'll find something to ski on, and whatever happens (short of torrential rain to 300m) will be better than four days in the office!!
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Poster: A snowHead
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@kitenski, that's an interesting point about resorts opening earlier. I hadn't noticed that but you may well be right - perhaps especially in the eastern Alps with artificial help?
I agree that, for anyone coming for Christmas and beyond, there is ample time for more snow to fall (and I'm sure 18th December will be fine too  ). The cold outlook also means that new snow is more likely to stick due to frozen ground.
Usually what happens at this time of year has little bearing on the season as a whole. (A notable exception was last season, when IIRC it snowed a lot in late November / early December, but was then almost completely dry for most of the season in some parts of the Alps). I do still find it interesting to keep an eye on these early conditions though, and compare them to seasons past.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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@denfinella, yeah it's a good hobby following what happens
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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@kitenski, @denfinella, Resorts opening early ? well a great example is Sainte Foy where I have a small place . Always used to open the week before Christmas depending how it fell no earlier . However about six or seven years ago they started laying an artificial run on the slalom stade mid to late November for the French ski teams and a few others to train in secret ahead of the early Val races , it’s a fairly steep stade north facing at mid mountain. This developed with lots of the local ski clubs using it also so the station ŵas in effect open to racers only .
As cannon coverage has developed , nearly all the lower half of the area , the Marie last year decided to open the mountain for a pre season weekend around on the first weekend in December to great success with a full opening the following weekend . This season they are going for it with the season opening on the 3rd Dec a full two weeks before the old opening dates . I wouldn’t expect the whole mountain to open but it looks on track for part to open it will be interesting to see how successful it is with the abolition of the cheap local season pass , that’s another story .
@denfinella, no offence mean’t with it’s only the 23rd Nov but lots like a ok to normal start so far , seen much much worse .
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Rob Mackley wrote: |
| It’s only the 23rd November ! |
Amen
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I'm a committed Early Season gambler over the last 10 yrs, especially risky as we like to go to Les Gets. But on the whole it has paid off, we've always had great snow and good skiing, and missed travel disruption, despite some close calls.
My first trip to Avoriaz was 2009, with work colleagues, the year it was freezing cold in early December, some amazing snow to be had, but we got stuck in Geneva on the way back due to blizzards in the UK, we had to stay overnight in a hotel near the airport. Lots of rushing around to rebook onto the first Easyjet out in the morning, and caught the train home via a work Christmas party in London. This was just before a second wave of snow hit the UK, and the whole of the SE of UK road and air network was shut down. Amazingly we landed in a clear window at Luton before it was closed again, and the trains were running fine. My wife (7 mths pregnant) was not impressed when I walked in the door 24hrs late, pretty much still in ski gear, and a bit worse the wear from my Xmas party!
In 2014/15, (I'd not been allowed to ski for a while after the above...) we return to PDS, to Les Gets, this time with two young kids ready for their first ski lessons, just after NYE. This was the year that Les Gets had pretty much no snow pre-season or for Christmas, and things were looking bleak for our trip. But we ultimately arrived few days after Snowmageddon, when all the snow arrived with a thump a day or so after Xmas, resulting in changeover carnage over the weekend of 27/28 Dec, people stranded in their cars for 24hrs etc. However, and apologies to those stuck in traffic, we had a great time and amazing snow!!
Since then, we've been another 4 times, this year our 5th, we've either come just before Christmas or just after New Year, depending on school holidays, and Les Gets has always delivered. It's always a little bit hairy in the lead up, and on my part a lot of unnecessary weather forecast checks go on, usually starting in September!! Fingers and everything crossed for our early trip this year. We have extra jeopardy this time, on our recommendation bringing another family, so we need the weather to be on best behaviour.
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@Rob Mackley, no worries, and no offence taken. That is interesting to hear about the Sainte-Foy opening date.
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Where can I get the old school squiggly graph for AdH pls? 
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@MoodyFFS, here you go. This is for the 00Z run but you can change the run by clicking the buttons on the left.
(And the static version which won't update:)
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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@denfinella, thanks!
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If there is precipitation falling as rain at 1,800m it’s likely to be snow further up right?
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FAQ
