 Poster: A snowHead
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| fatbob wrote: |
| I will however admit to frustration with a casual attitude when e.g. people won't fill up chairs when there is obviously a large queue behind them. |
Yes, that is frustrating. Thankfully it only happens in a very few resorts.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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ski,
Yep got that one aswell as Paul Parkers book. I'm finding it useful, from reading it another fault of mine is I sometimes have to back foot too far back. Sounds like I've got lots of faults doesn't it  . Yet someone who saw me teleling down the M2 (at Cairngorm) a couple of weekends ago said my teleing looked quite good  .
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From your descriptions (I'm NOT a tele expert - but I do enjoy it), I think a) you may still not be using the back ski enough. If you're coming into parrallel, then you are probably trying to do to much with the front/lead/outside ski.....getting low helps.
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Its possible, also as I started as a fixed heel skier I tend to fall back on tried and trusted parallels whenever the going gets the slightest bit tough. A few weekends ago I broke a pole and spent an afternoon teleing without poles - got much lower then, but found it much harder skiing without the poles, but I think it was good for my technique.
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Pushing the lead foot forward (too far) can make ankle flex tricky ! , so why not try sliding the old lead back ?
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I know, I tend to do it on steeper slopes or dificult snow and it may be because I'm sitting back on the skis. Lots to work on, just hope the snow is decent at the weekend.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, what, like all the french and italian ones.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
| ... looks like something that does interest the less profficient skier out there. |
... and I guess takes us back to your original post.
I would guess the answer is 'It aint realistically going to happen'. In fact having re-scanned some of the posts, the most sensible idea IMHO from which somebody could profit would be by writing buide books a bit like what nbts post of Whistler mentioned.
All it takes is somebody to write a few guide books describing the resorts runs and cross-referencing to similar runs ... incorporating sections 'like if you liked this run, then also try' ... and 'note this run will be heavily moguled by lunch time' ... and 'warning as steep as black 28 after the first tunr for around 200m!' etc.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, 6 weeks is enough to reach the level of "competent novice". If someone is happy at that level then how are they deluded? Becoming a better skiing will take many more weeks and may involve having more lessons. |
But check out the other thread (too steep to groom). Blacks are for advanced skiers - not competent novices! 
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| fatbob wrote: |
| If the slopes were rid of all but the "achievement orientated" skiers then they might be a lot quieter but also a lot less laid back. |
That's clearly not true, what exactly is an "achievement orientated" in that context? Most everyone is "achievement orientated", it might be the relatively modest acheivement of a run they've not done before but it all counts.
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agavin, I would be prepared to write a guide book about every piste in every resort. Any sponsors?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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GrahamN,
You've got it about right,,,just do it and enjoy....why does it need too much analysis?
Of course you want to push on a bit but.....
Some people doen't seem to have much else going on.....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Frosty the Snowman wrote: |
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Seems a shame in some ways - in these days of instant gratification, do we even want every tiny detail of the mountain environment tailored to all possible needs? Slope gradients indicated to the nearest degree, rainbow-hued piste maps.... where does it all end
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It ended with a change of underwear almost required on a very nasty black in La Thuile. I would have tipped€10 to a freindly local if he had whispered " Look Chubby, I think the 4 kids you have with you may be okay, but you and your Mrs may be in for an ability reality injection just round the first bend". My point is that it was so very different to the other blacks we had tried in resort.
Hey we didn't fall, and the kids did wait for us, but it looks like something that does interest the less profficient skier out there. |
But my question would be this, what's the after effect? Are you now in therapy for post traumatic stress? Or, are the kids still teasing you about it and it gives you a wry smile? And you feel better prepared for another time?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Quote: |
PS there's a heck of headwind coming up the hill into the village right now  |
Ise You cycle with your laptop.........impressive.
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| ise wrote: |
| agavin wrote: |
Some people run for the sake of fitness only or to enjoy getting exercise out in the open - not everybody keeps a log and tries to make sure that each time they do a route they do it faster etc.?
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I need to go further and/or faster over time to (a) get fitter or (b) to get any excercise, QED 
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Agreed on a), but not on b) - you are still getting exercise even if it's shorter/slower than the last time, just probably not as much, which, if you're not really bothered about quantification, is essentially agavin's point.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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GrahamN, isn't exercise defined as physical exertion ?
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Poster: A snowHead
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
| Kramer, what's the difference between finding any run easy and "believing" you find any run easy? |
good stance and balance
good technique
apart from that - nothing really...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| beeryletcher wrote: |
| Not sure why I'm telling this., Oh yes I felt liking blowing my own trumpet....no, actually it was an earlier comment about 'anyone thinking they don't need instruction after 1 lesson is deluded'........some people learn better by themselves, using the power of observation, some people can read technique in a book and translate it to reality and some need hands on guidance. We all learn differently. Watch the skiers you like the style of and mimmick...this really will work for some! Promise! |
not that many though...
what is it <20% of population are visual learners?
of them how many are really GOOD at learning stuff like skiing that way?
I know 2 - 1 I shared a lesson with... a dancer(from memory... if not professional then she danced a hell of a lot) ... she was totally self taught skier... just copied people on the hill and was in advanced skiers only class.... she was phenomenal.... totally outstanding (grrrr can I kill her now?).... took her about 1/2 an hour to get the idea of what ski lessons were about - then she was off.... stupendous learning ability for the balance/movement stuff... I rode t-bar with her and she asked how she could ski like me - I told her the stuff she might want to watch from the instructor(I was translating what he was asking her to do as he did not realise she was lessonless -she joined us late) .... the next t-bar ride was with him and he asked what I had told her because she changed THAT much in 1 run... when I said "to watch you more - she has never had a lesson" he went "oh - is she THAT good by herself?" .... incredible!
The other is pretty much deaf - could not hear what was being said.... learnt by watching as far as i can tell... is an instructor trainer... skis so smoothly.... grrrrrr again!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, And would this be possible without too much extra expense and effort to those that run the resorts? As I feel that one or two extra gradings wouldn't go amiss, as I like to push myself safely and not get caught out on any piste that is far beyond my capability. This said, it has only happened on one or two occasions, but had I or someone else been injured, this would have been once too many
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| RachelQ wrote: |
| agavin, I would be prepared to write a guide book about every piste in every resort. Any sponsors? |
Actually having said that half-seriously, and having had a think about it I don't think it would be a bad idea - especially if one could find sponsors to do it ... 
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Could we not have a new EU body: The Federation of International Piste Graders. The name would of course have to be in French. Perhaps the folks that inspect the lift sytem could do both jobs for a small extra cost. I realise that as an EU initiative this money saving idea would be impossible.
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The tricky thing is dealing with the changing "difficulty" of slopes. Many holidaymakers I have observed don't even listen to the weather report so expecting the general populace to keep themselves up to date (even if they understand in the first place) about whether runs will be icy morning or afternoon or both, is probably asking too much.
So the blue run that was lovely at around 11h00 yesterday (just as the ice crust from the overnight frost melted) will be a nasty boilerplate at 09h00 and potentially a minefield of lumps and bumps at 16h30. How do you put that across in a colour system?
I like the "easiest way down" as cited by WTFH (although I can't see the point in Deer Valley where there are no hard ways down) and I reckon useful additions would be "unpisted" markers - applicable to any colour - even blues can have nice gradients for forming well shaped, open bumps for folks to learn/practise on in a more relaxed fashion.
A tricky old question though...
little tiger, I met a girl once who was skiing tricky narrow bumpy blacks in good control after 4 (3?) days of simply skiing around with a bunch of us. It helped that she had been a top level dutch speed skater so really was just learning to translate those skills to skiing. Very impressed, me.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| agavin wrote: |
| RachelQ wrote: |
| agavin, I would be prepared to write a guide book about every piste in every resort. Any sponsors? |
Actually having said that half-seriously, and having had a think about it I don't think it would be a bad idea - |
because the obstacles that our nervous skiers are concerned about vary on a daily basis with the weather, volume of skiers, quality of pisting etc then sadly it's not going to work out
What does work are the ski hosts that some stations have, who can give on the spot information.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| ise wrote: |
| You've got to have been reading a different thread to me then It's exactly these factors that are being complained about. |
Nope ... page one - post one and re-iterated on page 6 - both by Frosty The Snowman which is what this thread is all about ... its the huge discrepancy between like graded runs within and across resorts largely for factors of topography more than anything else ... that run in la Thuile is genuinely significantly steeper than the rest and a lot of other blacks I have come across ... a description saying as much would have prevented his near soiling experience ...
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If anyone recalls The Sunday Times' "We learned to Ski" book, there's a whole section on the "crafty skier" - depating how to read the mountain, the weather, pistes etc. Could perhaps due with being re-printed? I first read it at about 7 years old...
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You know it makes sense.
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| David Murdoch wrote: |
| I first read it at about 7 years old... |
Oh, you've got it bad, son! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| agavin wrote: |
| ise wrote: |
| You've got to have been reading a different thread to me then It's exactly these factors that are being complained about. |
Nope ... page one - post one and re-iterated on page 6 - both by Frosty The Snowman which is what this thread is all about ... its the huge discrepancy between like graded runs within and across resorts largely for factors of topography more than anything else ... that run in la Thuile is genuinely significantly steeper than the rest and a lot of other blacks I have come across ... a description saying as much would have prevented his near soiling experience ... |
From my home resort trail map
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The trail signs used at xxxx are the standard trail marking system used internationally. The symbols
and colours indicate the relative difficulty of each trail. Bear in mind that this is relative difficulty only,
and applies to the area in which the sign is found.
For example, a blue “more difficult” or black “most difficult” trail near yyyy Chairlift may well be steeper than
trails with the same markings at other parts of xxxx or in other resorts.
The signs are a guide only.The most sensible path to follow is never take anything for granted. If you don’t know a
trail, treat it with caution. |
my bolding
I was under the impression that this is the system used everywhere - ie there is NO set standard for a "green" "blue" "red" "black" etc run anywhere.... it is simply an indication that that run is easier/harder than another in the same area of the same resort..
a simple understanding of the trail marking system used internationally would have helped..... this can be learnt in lessons with a qualified instructor....
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Poster: A snowHead
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little tiger,
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was under the impression that this is the system used everywhere - ie there is NO set standard for a "green" "blue" "red" "black" etc run anywhere.... it is simply an indication that that run is easier/harder than another in the same area of the same resort..
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That is exactly what I was told when I took up ski-ing in Switzerland 20+ years ago and has been repeated every time I have whinged about piste grading in a resort.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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yep.... I have been told the same thing by instructors from all around the world... relative gradings only anyone complaining that "that was not a blue" or whatever is just not getting the info straight... it is not and has never claimed to be a system of making all of them meet a certain set of criteria....
this means if you really need to know then you gotta ask someone.... instructor, host, information office, busdriver, local in pub, butcher, baker.... someone!
if you have a mixed group and some are weaker skiers this is probably the most important.... i had a very intermediate skier friend in argentiere and my instructor trainer friend gave me a list of where I was allowed to ski the poor girl... and he has never met her.... he simply hates seeing people dragged on too hard stuff by well meaning friends.... even then i was getting the low down from the local ski bum as to where we should head in our "allowed list" for the current conditions....
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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little tiger, the fact that something's used internationally doesn't mean that it's good. That's the whole point of this thread - the international standard way of doing things sucks.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
| the international standard way of doing things sucks. |
IYO. Sure we can add a colour or two if it makes people happy. But I doubt it'll change anything. The nature, and difficulty of a run changes by the hour - and along with the fact that most people don't actually bother to learn how to do this potentially dangerous sport properly in the first place, these are the main factors that result in accidents. Not whether there's 3° more gradient than you expected - that's just an excuse, the workman blaming his tools as usual. This is a dangerous sport, practised in a mountain environment. You can't just package it up into a Disneyland controlled environment and expect complete security.
Think I might have mentioned this before , but we've already got green runs in France, either classified as such, or called beginners runs. If those are your limit, ski on them until you've improved enough for the next stage.
If anything the system some have suggested above will result in more accidents, complaints and claims. And much higher prices.
There are resorts that are better suited for beginners and nervous skiers (La Rosière for example). There are resorts that prefer to market their 'advanced skier' appeal. Basically there's already something for everyone, as long as you take the trouble to do some research. Another big problem is that the T.O.'s just want to sell you a holiday - and you might well end up in a resort that is less than suitable. But the bottom line is that some people these days just want a holiday bundle, with perfect weather and snow. If that's the case, I suggest a booking at the Dubai snowdome ...
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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PG, what is the difference between marking a run as borderline (green/blue, blue/red or whatever) and asking a local which runs are borderline? Assuming you can easily find a local in the first place. How is that Disneyland? Even if you're talking about resort liability, responsibility still lies with the skier as to whether or not they take a particular run - and I maintain that more info puts that responsibility more squarely on the skier and enables them to take that responsibility.
| agavin wrote: |
| its the huge discrepancy between like graded runs within and across resorts largely for factors of topography more than anything else |
and
| johnny_jones wrote: |
the fact that something's used internationally doesn't mean that it's good. That's the whole point of this thread - the international standard way of doing things sucks
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Nobody has suggested the topography be bullozed and changed, and I doubt many  are going to be the type of people who don't want to improve or they wouldn't be posting here. But we all learn in different ways and at different rates.
Nothing in life is perfect, there is always room for improvement but I grant you that sometimes one has to settle for the least worst system. However, when there would seem to be a clear demand for some improvement in the current marking system (even if you just take this thread as a straw poll), and there is a way of doing so at negligible cost, I'm mystified as to why the people most vehemently and vociferously against any change whatsoever are the ones who would be least affected by it because they can ski anywhere anyway?
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Cost is a main factor, combined with the fact that the more regulated a system is, any perceived discrepancies/failures will be more liable to claims. The fact that people will perceive a greater level of 'safety' when in fact there is little change - it is not gradient, but snow conditions, weather, ability and traffic density that are the main causes of difficulty. The fact that it will tempt less that capable skiers further up the mountain before they are ready.
Pencil in a run as borderline, easy, whatever, and that liability increases as soon as there is an accident. Blue runs are of 'medium difficulty'. The classification errs on the pessimistic side, for safety reasons.
If there are any runs graded according to commercial pressures then I completely agree that the resorts concerned should be compelled to conform to national standards, but on the whole they are evaluated according to norms established and detailed in this post in the other thread.
This thread is a straw poll amongst Brits in the main. They represent no more than a fifth of skiers on French slopes.
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PG, are you saying that a resort has a greater liability at the moment if someone has an accident on a green slope rather than on a blue or red slope slope?
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| PG wrote: |
| it is not gradient, but snow conditions, weather, ability and traffic density that are the main causes of difficulty. |
I disagree that gradient doesn't present difficulty. And if a less experienced skier (however ambitious) encounters a gradient that is unexpectedly steep, in many cases it can make them freeze up so they haven't the necessary relaxation to cope with the slope well. As someone else said, it's almost a question of managing expectations. I just feel that the current bandings are just too broad
| PG wrote: |
| The fact that it will tempt less that capable skiers further up the mountain before they are ready. |
Disagree with this too - the people it will benefit most are the ones who will avoid the steeper slopes until they are ready for them imo so this would enable them to make that judgement
| PG wrote: |
| If there are any runs graded according to commercial pressures then I completely agree that the resorts concerned should be compelled to conform to national standards |
Easiski has already pointed out that runs are graded according to commercial pressures. I feel this is rather silly: yes, the resorts might get people turning up who wouldn't do so if runs were marked according to a standard (preferably international) - a blue is a blue is a blue - but they won't be going back! Another smaller resort near us has no qualms about marking its pistes by the actual gradient, I think they have 1 blue, everything else is red and black. Which allows people to do that research you mention and look at the piste map and say, right I'm not going there until I can ski rather better than I can now. My God, I think we're in agreement on something!
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Ray Zorro, not exactly. It seems logical to me that that the more effort put into ever more precise grading of difficulty on slopes, the greater degree of responsibility the resort is accepting for skier security on said slopes. That if someone then hits a stone on a slope classified as 'very easy' and comes a cropper, that the assumption of responsibility on the part of the resort will be easier to prove. That the resort will consequently be compelled to ensure far greater control of security and conditions on all slopes.
Runs will be liable to closure far more often. Every inch of fresh snow on a run will have to be bashed - no margin for error. Poor visibility? The pisteurs would have to be ready at the top of the 'easy' runs with netting, ready to close them off. Can't have a beginner skier risking skiing off the piste into the soft snow at the side. Perhaps all runs will need netting along the entire length, rather than just piste markers? Should skiing be permitted at all when avalanche risk hits level 3?
It's a trend towards the controlled environment we have seen that in the UK has stopped school teachers from taking kids on field trips - the transferral of personal responsibility to third parties. In ski resort terms it would result in an increasing burden of costs in a business that already suffers from the vagaries of climate and hardly makes excessive profits. Those extra costs would be recovered from the customer, and the sport would become more elitist once again. Small resorts would go out of business - they wouldn't be able to afford the liability insurance.
eng_ch
No - runs are not graded according to commercial demand, easiski did not say this. Some are - and as I said those should be changed asap.
I didn't say that gradient didn't present difficulty. Reread my words.
Off skiing
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FAQ
Not exactly rocket science and the overall classification needn't change either, they can still be classed as easy or medium or whatever. Don't get the extra cost aspect at all, none of your safety measures need be applied any more than they are now 