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A snowHead

The SCGB clubhouse until 1997: 118 Eaton Square

Re. 118 Eaton Square (former SCGB clubhouse), Clouseau has this:

"One of the other properties that is still known to be a single residence, is 118 Eaton Square, which was sold to a Russian businessman for £65m at the height of the property boom, but which is a large building. The price was considered high even then, since despite the fact that the property was circa 15,000 sq ft, it is also on a very noisy side of the square, busy with traffic."

Length of lease not known for the £65 million.
Source: London Property Insider
http://londonpropertyinsider.blogspot.co.uk/2013/01/movers-and-shakers-at-eaton-square.html

It seems that 118 Eaton Square (6 beds, 7 baths, 4 receptions) may recently have been on the rental market at £130,000 pcm.

Source: Zoopla.co.uk
http://www.zoopla.co.uk/property/118-eaton-square/london/sw1w-9aa/23102838

A snowHead

Mistress Panda, The braying twot in VDisease 14 years ago was one very obnoxious reason I didn't join the Tea Club

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I must have misheard something at the AGM about leases.

At least the club does not have to worry about funding that then.

Kind of get the impression that there is little room for manoeuvre regarding the Leaders. They may however come back into their own if Tour Operator guides disappear in France but the club still keeps a presence there.

I think they would be delighted to ramp up the expensive holidays and replace departing members with a similar number of new recruits ech year - but it seems it will look to sign them up mostly online rather than in resort.

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George Jones, The Les Arcs development with the leaders needing to carry a letter for the 'police' is interesting, I wonder if it will spread to other ski areas connected to Les Arcs...

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Land Registry property sale prices reveals nothing about 118 Eaton Sq but something unusual has happened at Flat 1, 114 Eaton Sq:

Sold on 30/5/07 for £1,590,000
Sold on 18/9/09 for £1,590,000 - an arrangement to avoid CGT, maybe?
Sold on 9/10/12 for £ 460,000 - quite a loss in value!

Could it be that an undesirable neighbour dragged the whole area down? Any suggestions who that may have been? Toofy Grin

Edit: I thought £1.6m was a lot of money but it's small pertaters compared to £65m!

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Comedy Goldsmith, so, if they'd just extended the lease and hung on a bit they'd be maybe £60m better off. I never understood the move out of central London.

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Bode Swiller, I was a member at the time and worked in Central London and had used the club house a couple of times. It was a very handy meeting place and in those days quite easy to park. I have forgotten the reasons for the sale and move but vaguely recall it seemed a good idea.

After all it is free

A property company with its own ski club ..

A Carpet Baggers dream -- sorry DG, you're banned.

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There is more opposition to ski club leaders in some resorts compared to others. Sometimes the tourist office and hoteliers are in favour and the ski school against. It varies from resort to resort. It is a similar situation to the TO hosting debate.

I was the ski club leader in Les Arcs for four weeks in 1992. It's hard to imagine it was so long ago. Even then Les Arcs was a resort where there was opposition within the resort although the tourist office was in favour. I do not know where the objections came from. I was briefed by the club before I went to ensure that I did nothing to rock the boat and I kept a fairly low profile when promoting the club's services. I get the feeling from speaking to leaders occasionally since then that the situation has remained delicate although I am not sure. I also have the impression that at times, any incident that might be seen to be connected to the ski club might have been used against it.

It comes as no surprise to me therefore that if the ski club is going to have a problem it will be in Les Arcs. It was said at the AGM that club had taken French legal advice and legally speaking the club is doing nothing wrong. I think it remains to be seen however if the there will be any future issues.

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As far as the sale of Eaton Square is concerned it was down to money. It was the time of another recession but not as bad as the current one.

DG would have you believe that time was part of a golden era for the club, but it was losing money. You may think the ski club could be better run now, but you should have seen it them. I hate to be critical to the people at the time that were doing their best, but for various reasons it needed to become more professional and indeed did so in my view.

It is easy to say Eaton Square should never have been sold but from what I know there was not much choice. Some kind of bank loan might possible, but we have to remember at the time lending criteria were much stricter than we have seen more recently.

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Freehold property versus leasehold? Freehold for long term security. It is easy to look back with rose tinted glasses but nobody knew how property prices would go.

Given those points about potential difficulty in France, it seems surprising that the SCGB massively increased its 'skier volume' in the country last winter.

As the diagram shows, the 'skier volume' of France:Austria was 3:1 in winter 2011-2, but leapt to 4.5:1 in winter 2012-3.

Given the fairly level market share/popularity of the two countries, the persistent actions of the French authorities, and the SCGB's increasing desire to be seen as a tour operator, this seems an odd strategy.

The cost of the repping/leading programme continues to be enormous, relative to its effectiveness compared to 20-30 years ago (in skier numbers and new-member recruitment). More about this soon.

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

George Jones, the exact words of the 2013 annual report ...

[breakdown of income and expenditure to the right]

"The Leader service continued to prove very popular last season, with over 13,000 skier days achieved in 33 resorts."

This ballooned-up figure must include a huge number of skier days given away to those who have not paid subscriptions to the SCGB and are (it would seem) unlikely to join-up in the resort. If the Club has a claimed 30,000+ members, why is there the capacity to give away so many free days?

As far as I can gather, based on previous annual reports (which were far more informative), about 3000 to 3500 different SCGB members (out of a total claimed membership of 30,000) used the leader service last winter, at a stated cost of £241,320.

So, that's a cost of £70 to £80 per member.

And the Club wonders why it's hard to retain the membership of the 85% to 90% of members who don't use the service?

-----------------
A historical comparison, from the SCGB 1992 annual report:

Number of people skied with a rep: approx 15,000
Number of rep resorts: 31
Number of new members recruited by reps: 1,108
Skiing operations cost: £85,406

[NB: 1992 air fares were, as I recall, comparable to 2013 air fares.]

A snowHead

So 3500 members ski for a week with the rep 3500 * 6 would give 21000 ski days.

So I am not convinced that there are huge numbers of non members skiing with leaders from those figures.

Cost is 240/13 about £18 per ski day.

I am not saying that you could not offer a two tier membership with and without leader access but it does not seem to be as onerous as you suggest.

Also leaders are central to the holiday offering and it may be considered that weakening the leader system may damage the prospcts of the holiday arm.

A snowHead

Comedy Goldsmith, David.

How do you think the club - of which neither of us are members now - should change?

Can you give us some practical sense of what it should be to make you happy?

It is financially doing ok.
It seems to be roughly holding stable membership numbers at a time when skier numbers have dropped.
The mag was hardly selling on newsstands - and has now been withdrawn from them - but that's in line with the slow death of print based journalism.
Many clubs have an active core who both contribute and benefit more. The same is true of my MTB club, of the CTC, and even of snowHeads

And people are voting with their wallets to stay members.

Are they wrong and you right? Puzzled

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I suppose it is like gyms. Those who sign up in the new year often make little use of facilities but subsidise regular attendees. If they do not renew, hopefully there may be a fresh crowd next year to replace them.

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George Jones, the SCGB doesn't seem to feel obliged, these days, to quote the number of different members who ski with reps ... which is, of course, the key figure.

The only annual report in the past two decades that gave clear figures was 2005: 4162 members, 1366 non-members.

There's been endless monkeying about and inconsistency in the reporting of this data, over the years.

As long as the SCGB is run by the reps for the reps, nothing will change!

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^ OK. Maybe 1366 non members got a free day?

Nothing wrong with that - especially if they then sign up to become members. With a 40% take up rate on average it would appear there is room for non members - on average.

I would like to think non members get knocked back if the day is oversubscribed though.

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After all it is free

George Jones, I'm guessing member communications is all about reminding people why they are members. ie it's a retention exercise. OK, so take it out if not sure, it still leaves a marketing budget of £275k which should never ever result in a negative result. On a cost per acquisition basis of say £50 it would net 5000+ memberships. BUT, that only works if the offering is right and I suspect it isn't.

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^ Fair comment but if you are an unemployed Leader, stood at the meeting place every morning, in the club jacket with no punters, how do you persuade new people to join?

Also leaders are mostly mature volunteers and a chugging mentality may not be part of their mindset.

You know it makes sense.

Comedy Goldsmith, Well, Turkeys don't usually vote for Xmas. I think your goal is rather unrealistic, whatever the reasons for it. And I think very few of us would think archiving a core function, or one in the top 5 goals.

And we really don't know from the stuff in the public domain - how many of the new members sign up via the internet, but because of reps.

If I rejoin at some point it will be precisely because of the reps and the freshtracks holidays in which they play a prominent part. I had a brilliant holiday with the current SCGB Chairman present, some years ago.

Bottom line is - lots of people - as I said - are voting with their wallets to continue the club. If they stop doing so, or if you offer an alternative which lures them away, then it may be worth having a 60 page discussion...

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

George Jones, well it's a rough, tough world out there and I call it "no hay, no pay". They are nearest the coalface you can get so time to get chugging.

I went to the ski show twice. Bumped into some nice SCGB people a number of times. Not once did anyone even enquire as to whether I'm a member or not. To some people the idea of promotion is to stand around trying to look smiley and helpful, whereas you have to knock doors down.

A snowHead

George Jones, I recall ringing the number on a ski club poster for a client once, only to get a very confused barmaid who had no idea what I was talking about. Perhaps he did spend a lot of time in that bar, but I imagine it posed some difficulties for many other people trying to get a guiding day... No doubt things have changed, but if not perhaps some of the communication budget could go on local mobile phones.

A snowHead

It's nonsense. A gravy train with wings, jet engines, free drinks, a French ticket inspector threatening to throw people off, powered by BS eco-fuel ... but ...

... "spearheading the social snowsports revolution!" ...
Frank McCusker, CEO, SCGB, 2013 annual report

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

I will respond to David's repeated obsession with the leader costs, although I have no intention of getting into an online argument with him. There is no point, but for others reading this it might be worth presenting a different view. By the way George, I was the bloke who raised the U24 issue at the AGM and although it was only a small issue, I hope it will show that I am not totally blinkered about the ski club.

I have been a member continuously for thirty seven years, maybe a year or so more. Yes - have a cheap shot if anyone wants to. I ski three to four times a year now, split between Snoworks and the ski club. I was a leader for 12 weeks one season a long time ago but have never been involved with the council.

I joined via the repping system, so I think I should count as thirty seven memberships and not one. I must have been on at least forty Freshtracks so at current day prices, that is about £40K of revenue for the club. There needs to be a broader perspective than just looking at the leader costs in isolation. I know people who have been on more trips than me. David by contrast has taken far more money from the club than he has ever put into it.

I am a strong supporter of the leader system, although I have not used it myself for over ten years. Great though it is, I want to ski all day every day off piste and the leader system cannot give me that. When David was a member he said he objected to his sixty odd quid fee subsidising the leaders. I object to my sixty odd quid having being wasted on staff responding to his endless requests for information.

I believe there are lots of members like me, who having joined via the leader system will stick with club in the long term and use the holiday service. Why do I believe that, well because I actually ski with the club. As far as I know David has not skied with the club for over ten years. If that is wrong David please correct me, but please give a straight answer. I have probably spent more time skiing with other members in the last two years than he has in the last twenty.

The leader system introduced me to off piste skiing and the holidays then gave me the means to learn how to do it. It still does that for a lot of people. That to me is the most important thing the ski club should do, encourage people to get more out of their skiing.

I also think the suggestion that the club is run by leaders for leaders is ridiculous. A lot of people have tried to put something back into the club where as David only wants to soak up attention from it.

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George Jones,

There is more that I could have said at the meeting, but at the time I decided to give the management the benefit of the doubt.

The club has had a challenging five years IMHO because of events in the Alps, the recession and more recently the management changes.

When you look at the future direction of it, well it's like the old Irish joke about the bloke asking for directions - "If I was wanting to be going there, I wouldn't be starting from here." Actually it has a lot in its history to be proud of and I hope it can move forward.

As I see it from the positive side:

The membership is still declining but is almost stable which is remarkable given the recession.

Costs appear to be under control.

The balance sheet is strong with a cash position a bit stronger than it was three years, although it may be a bit less if adjusted for inflation.

From my own selfish perspective, with the current cash position it should be able to keep going even with a further membership decline for at least five to ten years, which will surely see out my skiing career.

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It would seem too much effort is required to be a Leader for it to attract those seeking a gravy train.

However, if someone pays their membership then I think they are entitled to ask whatever questions they want about how the club is run. Maybe others find it boring, or strange, or an impertinent attempt to micro manage the club's affairs but high-handed actions like expelling members of the awkward squad without reasonable cause often backfire. It causes others to question the Club's transparency for a start.

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[quote="Comedy Goldsmith
Also ... archiving is a big factor these days, completely ignored by the Skeeb. It still has a library, which should be digitised. A mobile skiing museum would be great. There's been a terrible lack of application to ski history in the UK over the past 50 years - the British had a very important role in the development of this sport, and we should celebrate it![/quote]

Its interesting that you complain about money being spent on the leader service because in your interpretation not enough people are using it, yet you want money spent on digitising the library which hardly ever gets used at all. Nobody looked at any books last week although the meeting was held in the room. You want a mobile skiing museum as well?

I accept the club has a moral responsibility to look after it as no doubt a lot of it has been donated but I see no point in digitising it.

This may be sacrilege to some, but all the library does for me is make a function room look a bit cosier. I expect a lot of it is only there because people have been clearing out their attics.

I am sure adequate fire protection is in place but if the place did get burnt down or was vandalised, I do not think the loss of the library would be any great loss to the nation.

If it is so important to you, then why not offer to fund it, or leave a legacy for the same purpose? I am sure the ski club would be prepared to put a plaque on the wall in memory of your generosity.

That's enough, I am off down the pub now.

After all it is free

That club is run by librarians for librarians. I say throw the book at them.

While we're all busy scribbling and quibbling ...

Just a reminder that applications for the position of Editor of the SCGB's magazine Ski+Board have to be in by 5pm Friday (i.e. 46 hours to go). Although there was a run of several editors between 1992 and 2000, this tends to be a long-term opportunity. Arnie Wilson, the magazine's present editor, has been in post since 2001. Details ...

http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/news/story.aspx?storyID=9017#.UpY5Fyff5xU

Candidates are invited to edit this thread, for a first-anniversary edition of New Ski Club of Great Britain chat forum on 18 December 2013. This is bound to impress, at interview stage.

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First thing I'd say is: "think we need to drop the +Board"

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