 Poster: A snowHead
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bobmcstuff,
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I don't really understand where they're getting such big prices from...
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When you start to add up the cost of the free pre trip H&S inspection with the relevant person and partner all inclusive for a week and then throw some heli skiing in to boot it is not to difficult 
Now digging out tin hat!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Having taught some school trips, I was disgusted that the children not only paid for the free places of all the staff, but they had to pay for their bar bill as well.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bobmcstuff wrote: |
| I don't really understand where they're getting such big prices from... |
A bit of a guess based on what I know - the school/student ski market has fallen by about 20-25% in the last 5 years. During the same time, the Euro got harder, inflation increased and transport costs have only gone upwards and things like lift passes seem to have increased beyond mere inflation. Tour Op overheads will not have dropped in line with the market drop either. The other thing that was happening around the height of the market (07/08 ish) was that the big operators were busy buying up schools operators and paying top money for them. The investments have to pay back and, along with all the other price pressures, it means today's kids are probably being asked to pay a premium.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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bobmcstuff,
The amount of free places usually depends on when you go. In school holidays then half a place in 10 would be about right (possibly generous), but it can get as good as 1 in 5 (or 2 in 10 as they seem to do it) if you go off peak.
Presumably school trips end up needing very expensive insurance? All those teachers on free places indemnifying themselves against anything and everything.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I don't really understand where they're getting such big prices from...
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Uni trips don;t generally need full time supervision/instruction on the slopes, include kit hire, evening activities planned and 3 meals a day. Schools usually stay in hotels for ease of supervision rather than separate apartments which is often more expensive. Uni have 4 weeks at easter to play with enabling a cheaper week choice than schools tied to 2 weeks (when, nor surprisingly, most UK schools are also off!).
I don't really like the bash-school-ski-trips for being a waste of money. We should be saying 'thank goodness some staff are willing to spend time organinsing a trip, and then spend a week of their holiday, away from family/partner, with snotty nosed 14 year olds'. Although saying that the uber young teachers who came on our 6th form only school trip had quite a nice time.
Lots of people don't have parents who ski, or parents who can get time off and so a school ski trip is great. No, not everyone can afford to go, but that's life. It isn't exactly a compulsory trip!
Hooray for teachers still willing to take on the risk and hassle of running ski trips 
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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It isn't exactly a compulsory trip!
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I agree
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Hooray for teachers
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It isn't exactly a compulsory trip!
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
| Hooray for teachers still willing to take on the risk and hassle of running ski trips |
Hope the forum mods allow me to tell you about my brand new ski trip.
OK then I can I ask you all to send me a deposit please for the 2013.
Not sure when it’s going but it will sometime around mid feb.
Hotel details will be advised later but it will be 4 to a room and there is a least 1 bathroom to each 4 rooms
We will be going to really nice resort. Of course I will spend some time there beforehand to ensure that you don’t slap over on the ice and that the hotel has lots of fire extinguishers.
We will be flying from somewhere in the south east to somewhere in northern Italy but we may use a coach. I will let you know nearer to the departure date (whenever that is)
We can’t give a definite cost yet but once you have paid your deposit I’ll try and work it out
Your money is fully protected as I have told the teacher it is
Yes we have bonding, but can’t give you any details yet
Everything will be supplied in the cost except for the items you need to pay for when you arrive
I will be bringing my mates with me to supervise (at your expense)
Please would you send thank you notes to me for giving up my time to help you have a holiday
Whilst I can agree that I’m not actually qualified not do I hold any form of professional indemnity, I have organized lots of these trip before so you can trust me. ABTA ? ATOL? Well not yet but I have all the forms ready to send off. But don’t worry, if it all goes wrong you can rest assured the we will put out a full press statement that you will agree fully passes the buck.
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Wayne, In a nutshell nail on head
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Wayne, This is why Slippery survived so long.
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I'm a teacher, and ski organiser. Off to Folgarida next year, incidentally! I am appalled by the skiing Europe fiasco, and have been posting on this thread since page 1. I've never taken an inspection visit, but do take a free place for every 10 paying pupils. I'm often offered inducements (free I pad for a booking this year - didn't take it). But some do... I know of many schools which factor a contingency fund into the price - a beer fund, the rationale being that staff should not be out of pocket for attending. I also know of schools which ask for receipts from reps, so that they can trouser some of the contingency fund....
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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daveyladboy, I bet the OP wished that the teachers/school that organised the holidays with SE were as honest as yourself, no doubt they would not have used that operator and the parents and schools involved would not be out of pocket. It was their greed that hooked them for CR et al!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Wayne, very funny, thanks for the smiles.
Last week I had to go back to a school who asked for all the money for a March-time 2013 trip to be paid by October 2012?!? No details, operator, accomm and so on. Alarmingly similar to your post!
daveyladboy, Congrats for taking trips and your stance.
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
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I don't really understand where they're getting such big prices from...
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Uni trips don;t generally need full time supervision/instruction on the slopes, include kit hire, evening activities planned and 3 meals a day. Schools usually stay in hotels for ease of supervision rather than separate apartments which is often more expensive. Uni have 4 weeks at easter to play with enabling a cheaper week choice than schools tied to 2 weeks (when, nor surprisingly, most UK schools are also off!).
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Last one I went on at uni was £500 with UCPA including full time instruction, kit hire and food.
Also went on in January through a student company, that was £280 for accomodation, lift pass and hire. And we got 1 free place for 8 bookings (off peak). That was possibly the cheapest week of the season though (except very early and late season weeks obviously).
The £1200 someone quoted before sounds way too much, the £800 sounds plausible.
But on the whole I agree with you though.
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You know it makes sense.
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Last one I went on at uni was £500 with UCPA including full time instruction, kit hire and food.
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Including transport?
You need to factor in approx £180 each for a coach from London, more from up north. More for flights if the teachers don't want to spend 24 hours+ on a coach.
UCPA 'full time' instruction is actually for 4 and a half days. So you need to pay for extra instructor cover for the additional day and a half. Kiddies can't go off skiing by themselves. Or we were never allowed to anyway.
You also need to factor in insurance. Never worked out for a group trip before but still probs adds a tenner onto the cost.
I agree the UCPA holidays are fantastic, great value. I loved the week I went on this year and it would be a superb set up for schools.
Do they actually take school bookings? I know they do a few weeks for under 18s but not sure how many / how easy it woudl be for English Schools to book on (would imagine the under 18 weeks are pretty popular with the French schools) Also not 100% sure as a teacher I would want to be staying in bunk beds in a dorm room of 6 like at ValT although there are centers with twin rooms.
Wayne, my god if that is how trips are organised at your school then I can kind of see your point!
All the ones I went on were all oprganised very well with everything set from the outset. We had a very experienced teacher running the trips (she did them when my bro (12 years older) was at the school and was still doing them when I left!. She had good links with TOs so she knew the score. Must say they got progressively more expensive and nicer throughout my 5 years at the school though. Reckon she got sick of 24h+ coach travel and in my final year we flew to Taho and that was an AMAZING trip. 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Wayne wrote: |
Mr Marmot,
...........Every day in the UK someone goes bust, many haven’t got themselves into that situation on purpose, but of course a few have. I would imagine that some people see it as a legitimate business practice. Is there anything you can do about this? No, and it doesn’t matter what new law they bring in it will change nothing. Not a dam thing.
I honestly can’t afford to lose this type of cash but it was spent a couple of years ago now, so that’s it, it gone. You could say the same of the parents who lost some cash for a ski holiday that never materialised, it was spent a few years ago, and it’s gone. Get over it and move on.
No I don’t think the system works. Anyone who really wants to play it will continue to rip people of. But, regardless of what the newspapers may tell you about the recent moral decline, nothing changes, it’s always been like that and it always will.
But I really do believe that life’s too short to worry about things you have sod all chance of changing. So apart from a good dose of Schadenfreude what else does the baying crowd think they will get if they attend the bankruptcy hearing. Will they get a refund – nope, will the holidays be re-instated – nope, in fact will they get absolutely anything from the experience (other than a feeling of satisfaction) – nope. But I’m told it can be appealing to see yourself as a victim and hey, even better, if you’re not alone, you can form a lynch-mob with all the other victims, OK it will not change your status but you can always justify it as “ensuring that it doesn’t happen to someone else”.
Stuff happens, accept it and move on................
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The Government have today announced plans to try and stem the unrest felt by electors who are unhappy at being ripped off and being able to do very little about it. Ministers have been shocked that some people feel outrage that they are seen as an unlimited source of income for cheats, scammers, flim-flam men and, of course, the Government themselves.
It was hoped that the MP expenses scandal and the banking crisis had eased the general population into a state of mind where they considered themselves to be powerless to do anything about being robbed. However, alarm spread along the corridors of Whithall when it was mentioned on SnowHeads forum that ' For evil to flourish, it only takes good men to do nothing'.
Trying to deflect the population's attention from the growing realisation of their predicament, the Prime Minister described Jimmy Carr as 'immoral' for using legitimate 'tax reduction' schemes, whilst conveniently ignoring mentioning any Tory-supporting celebrities using the same schemes or the Government promoted tax avoidance scheme known as ISAs.
The Minister of Propaganda (please insert any MP's name here) has decided that the best way to curb the recent unrest is by initiating a new 'information' poster campaign. Encouraged by comments made by 'fatalists' on SnowHeads forum, the design of the first poster in a series of over 400 was unveiled to the press.
[img] http://s290.photobucket.com/albums/ll263/pxenon/?action=view¤t=photosiu.jpg[/img] 
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Tue 26-06-12 10:46; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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In all seriousness I think there are a few basic problems with the overall methods that school trips are operated. But the whole problem could be solved VERY simply – by stopping teachers and school trying to operate as tour operators. Note - this of course will not stop some TO's going bust, but it will mean parents get their cash back in this case.
Firstly I honestly don’t think that teachers should be responsible for running them. The reasons are evident; many of them simply don’t know what they are doing. Please don’t miss-understand this, I don’t mean for one minute that they are purposely doing anything wrong but, due to their lack of insider knowledge (on how the tour operator industry works) they are (to put it bluntly) being scammed by a small percentage of operators - not all, but a small percentage. Let’s face it many of the prices they agree to (on behalf of the parents of the children on the trips) are simply exploitative. I don’t operate school trips for many reasons, but I am doing one next year (as a relative is one of the parents, and the school asked me to) for £595 per child fully inc. of flights, accomm, lift pass, ski school equipment, etc, etc. I should point out that I am still making what I consider a reasonable mark-up on this. Of course my area of Italy does tend to be slightly cheaper than some others in Europe, but still…. I have seen many parents being asked to pay £800 or £900 or even more for what is in essence an extremely basic package. Sorry to say this but some organising teachers could get a better deal for the kids by simply walking into their local Thomas Cooks.
Next, in many case the school trips are quite large and could be described as small companies (with a turn-over of more than £100,000) so there needs to be more financial control; from all quarters. I would suggest that each education authority sets up a department specifically to operate any school “outings” with an income of more than £2,500. The basics are that if a company director operated in the way that some schools do, they would be committing an offence. The new departments could gain an ATOL maybe join ABTA, etc. They should be staffed by people who actually understand what they are doing; this means there maybe one or two ex-teachers with some experience of dealing children’s welfare, but the majority of staff should have a tour operation background.
There MUST be more transparency throughout the whole operations. Parents should be informed from the outset, “exactly” what they are paying for. Now I am NOT saying that teachers should not go on the trips – that would be simply ridiculous – but parents should be told just what is being supplied (at their expense).
Regardless of what some people think, many school are definitely operating as tour operators (that really is obvious) and if they wish to continue doing so (which I don’t think they should do) they should be compelled (by parents if necessary) to follow the relevant regulations. This includes giving full details of what is being offered for sale – so no more of the well we may go to this hotel or we may go to that, we may fly or we may take a bus. But I do understand that this can be difficult. If you are thinking about running a school trip you don’t know how many kids will participate, so if you are quoted for a coach costing £XYZ you can’t work out the transport costs per person, etc. How many people will be in each room, how many instructors do you need, etc, etc (There you go; tour operator). So teachers tend to put out a ball-park figure based on expected numbers. This is a daft why to do things. Once again this boils down to teachers trying to be tour operators instead of simply buying a set priced product. If the TO that a school chooses will not give a set-price figure then simply go to someone else.
No-one wants to see school trips stopped. But, things change, the old PE teachers who has been running then since the 1950’s may no longer be the person who “should” be running them.
I am not advocating more regulation – as we all know that all that will happen in that case would be that the government states that school must use a member of some self-proclaimed over-sight body. E.g. a few of the larger TO’s will get together and say “hey everyone, we are in charge of this” and then start to make entrance to this wonderful new collective more and more restrictive – until they have cordoned off the schools market for the founder members benefit .
So we don’t need more regulations, those in place are already strict enough – it’s just that schools are simple ignoring them.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 26-06-12 10:47; edited 1 time in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| kat.ryb wrote: |
UCPA 'full time' instruction is actually for 4 and a half days. So you need to pay for extra instructor cover for the additional day and a half. Kiddies can't go off skiing by themselves. Or we were never allowed to anyway.
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See we were always given afternoons off to ski with mates on the three school ones I went with, but I have since realised this seems to be really unusual. On a side note I can understand why they don't do this but I always preferred skiing with mates.
Wayne I have always thought that schools could run it more like my uni one was run (although i never went I helped a novice mate book). Where you have a website and each person books it themselves and then you can specify options etc. As several people on the school one used to moan as we were charged 1 size fits all price and they had their own gear. That would neatly bypass the whole issue.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Whilst there is a mark up which allows companies to make their money in many cases for the student whether it be £500 or £1000, the school trip will / maybe the only ski trip he / she goes on. For 99% of families who would like to go on a ski trip together this sum then becomes £2500, ruling out this type of holiday.
Like everything and obviously this being skiing being a ski forum everything gets blown out of proportion. It was was the same with the coach crashes, thousands and thousands of coach journeys for various type of holiday there will be 2 crashes and then massive investigations / inquests.
What CR did was morally any legally wrong I understand but questioning teachers who offer a fantastic opportunity to many students.
I was asked the question in the last season - if schools didn't offer trips and families of 4 couldn't afford (£2500) would the sport come to an end?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| wam15 wrote: |
| several people on the school one used to moan as we were charged 1 size fits all price and they had their own gear. |
All our trips are priced like this 
I assume that everyone is part of a family group (mum-dad-2kids) and price it like that.
This way instead of kids paying 8 and parents paying 12, everyone pays 10.
Since we started doing it this way our bookings have gone up every year, so "most" people seem to like it.
Of course we give discounts if people don't need a flight or equipmnet, etc. But have found that peope prefer to just be given the full cost of the trip up front.
Not saying this will work for all TO's but it seems to for us.
You will NEVER keep everyone happy, all you can do is try your best.
1969jma, Good points you made.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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1969jma, How about a family who wants the kids to experience skiing saves up over a few years then has a family hol or sends the kids with a local ski club? Or waits until they are over 16 and lets them go themselves on a week to Scotland staying in a Youth Hostel (as I & my friends did).
I don't buy the argument that the sport comes to an end without school ski trips. Maybe for a small % of Brits but they aren't the only skiers. For everyone ignited with a lifetime's passion from a one off school ski trip I suspect there are many who never touch snow agian or at least not for a considerable period of time into their adult life when usually friends ask them if they'd be interested going.
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| wam15 wrote: |
Fair enough on the charge everyone the same policy, although I always wanted to pay a bit more and upgrade my equipement but apprently that broke some system  |
Not sure if it would work for a uni trip but we charge a set cost for everyone (except under 3's),
hen offer discounts if they don't want this or that. Of course they can also take up options such as ski school (about 50% do), ski upgrade - just pay the shop when you get your gear, plus stuff like kindergarden, lift pass extentions, etc.
But the gist of it is that there is a set cost for the ski holiday that 99% of people want.
Can't see why schools can't do the same. OK it does take a bit of working out when you're look at something 18months in advance, but it can be done.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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And back a page - did 'Slippery', Chris Reynard, turn up at his hearing? If so, how do we find out how it went? There's only so much to be found with Google.
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fatbob, I would suggest those put off our fantastic sport is less than 5%
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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No listing in the insolvency register for Mr. R. (yet)
Not sure how long it takes for that to get updated
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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1969jma, I'm not saying put off - just suggesting that the causal link between the selfless sacrifice of UK teachers and the continued existence of a European ski industry is tenuous at best.
And if schools really want to provide an introduction to the sport it can be done far more cost and educationally effectively by taking kids to a snowdome for a few hours. But for some reason I suspect that's not as attractive.
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fatbob, doesn't the appeal of a fridge end after two hours? I wish them to have a proper experience. I try to get those showing any interest to go in year 7 / 8 with the view that those whom can afford may go again two years later. (two year payment plan)
I have led ski trips for the last 8 years, im still in touch with most students, only 2 have returned to the mountains solely down to finance. (challenging area)
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You know it makes sense.
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More time spent in a snowdome would be a better introduction to skiing! After all my first look at a nursery slope (on a school trip), I thought it was the Olympic downhill run! It takes a while to progress, if there were snow domes in my time it may have made me progress much quicker than I did on that "Olympic hill"!! Then again the likes of CR would not be able to induce those not so idealistic teachers with a gold plated carrot! Maybe if I were a teacher on the freebie hunt, I too would go for the Austrian mountains with cheesy music etc rather than a fridge! This is what CR allowed for!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Roy Hockley, Snowdome a better introduction, as both a teacher organising and a ski instructor i have to totally disagree.
All our students (LEA policy) attend 4 dry slope sessions, if i felt more time was required for health and safety reasons this would be done on the dry slope.
I spend most of my week instructing the students, this last Easter I did just one hour of free skiing. I allow my collegues to free ski with an expectation they visit groups to see how they are progressing, checking with instructors that behaviour is exemplary.
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Poster: A snowHead
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A fridge might get boring if you're trying to ski as a receational skier after a bit but for kids learning I'd have thought it's ideal. A controlled envronment. English speaking teachers. Supervising teachers can watch from the balcony. OK so they miss out on the "foreign" experience but then families aren't mortgaging their lives away for it either.
I've no real objection to school trips and I'm sure teachers do a great job, but some of the arguments put forward that they are nothing but sacrifice for the teachers or that they have some higher aim than a nice holiday and a bit of experience for the kids seem ludicrous.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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fatbob, you make good points but let me put something forward
Why would I travel from the South West to Tamworth, Birmingham 1.5hrs, sit on balcony 1.5hrs, travel back 1.5 hours on a Tuesday night. (would you?) Dry slope 20 minutes away, better than a fridge.
I ask for english speaking instructors, those whom aren't fluent need to be very good at demonstration (I check this), also those who arent will make the students listen more carefully which will help their french or german, Im not going to lie by saying this is a reason we go. Culture? We go to ski!
If a school trip is organised well, students have clear guidelines, the trip is a doddle. On two trips I even allowed the students to call me by my christian name as long as it was Sir on return to school. The relationship can be closer to friends rather than teacher / student. The banter is fantastic
The guidlines are clear I catch them smoking, drinking or not follow instruction they will sit out half a day or be put on a plane home. I sat one person out in first year and its amazing 6 years later these students knew
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Roy Hockley, I have done one ski inspection, the very first year, always used the same TO who has always delivered. If I was ever to change TO I would ask to go on inspection visit. The reason I haven't is that I'm usually skiing with friends or instructing in resort. If a teacher is offered an inspection visit I'd tell them to grab it with both hands. The underlining point is the quality of service from the TO, it has to be good, a lot of money has been paid out.
This Easter we went to a resort where the snow was 'shocking', 59 out of 60 were beginners so didn't know any different. On the 2nd day I asked for us to be moved, TO came up trumps.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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1969jma, That is the difference between a professional and a greedy so and so that does not mind spending parents money! I trust that you would suggest the teacher/organiser/leader take the inspection trip to the snow though!
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Yes, definitely to snow and if they are taking the inspection visit because of their own lack of experience they should insist on going to the actual resort they will visit.
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1969jma, Before embarking on freebee perhaps look up the history of the TO on the internet to be sure of their past record! Get personal recommendation from others who have visited self same resort and hotel and above all to be sure it's not one of Slippery's franchises "dear boy".
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Cynic, very good advice should there be any teachers wishing to give students a fantastic opportunity and dare i say it 'once in a life time'
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| wayne wrote: |
| A company that owes me £58000 has just ddcided to put themself in to liquidation |
hmmmmmmmmm
pheonix company or what. You couldn't make it up.
They (the directors of the nice company that owes me £58k) have just opened a "new" company. Same factory building. Same staff. Same stock. Same customers. Same. Same. Same.
This really shouldn't by legal. But you know what.... It is.
Looking for a CPR basis to add the new co to the claim but doubt we'll find one
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| Wayne wrote: |
| wayne wrote: |
| A company that owes me £58000 has just ddcided to put themself in to liquidation |
hmmmmmmmmm
pheonix company or what. You couldn't make it up.
They (the directors of the nice company that owes me £58k) have just opened a "new" company. Same factory building. Same staff. Same stock. Same customers. Same. Same. Same.
This really shouldn't by legal. But you know what.... It is.
Looking for a CPR basis to add the new co to the claim but doubt we'll find one |
This happens all the time in the building industry.
This, and the liquidator costing what ever value is left in the company.
Wayne that's alot of money, total sympathy, and hope someone runs Reynard over ( twice)
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FAQ
I was in france at the same time as the last year's cam/oxf uni thing, all I can say is O M G.
