 Poster: A snowHead
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| BlooMountain wrote: |
My point is simply that skiing fast isn't the issue, nor are beginners, nor are people who haven't had lessons,
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Letting people loose on skis who haven't had lessons are clearly a danger to other skiers, as I found out last Christmas.
All of my "taken outs" have been by skiers who lack control...at any speed.
You set people up to make assumptions, "my father taught me" to..... "A bunch of ski instructors taught me along with my father"
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
All of my "taken outs" have been by skiers who lack control...at any speed.
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All of mine have been either: snowsports users attempting to maintain speed on flat sections, where you are basically forced to go the speed of the traffic, or ESF instructors.
2 boarders and 2 ESF ski instructors so far, with a 3rd that lightly buzzed me, and scared the living daylights out of a relative beginner, with maybe 1ft space in front of her skis, him in a schuss, her exiting a snowplough into a traverse.
All of these were in PdS. I have zero respect for any instructor in that uniform now. Didn't even stop to see if I was OK.
Oh and 1 very very very close buzz in Canazei, and no clue how surfski wasn't taken out spectacularly.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I consider myself lucky as I've managed to avoid collisions and past three seasonsI hardy spent time on groomed runs so it's less of an issue. I however had people skiing dangerously close to me, i.e. I had no option to turn if I had to, and once our skis actually touched.
I think the main danger on slopes are people who do not look where they are going. Keeping eyes open for what is ahead is the basic skill that beginners need to learn, if they do, this skill will stay with them. People behind will have to worry about them but they need to look forward and MOVE. And if they have to traverse the whole slope before finally making a turn it means that they have no business being on this slope yet and they shouldn't be there at busy times. Doesn't make them immediate danger but certainly makes traffic more complicated. And everyone regardless of level before "pushing limits" have to assess the consequences of a potential fall and loss of control and push them only when even in the worst fall he won't take out a single person.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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moffatross, Usually people who don't like bumps are the same who cannot ski them.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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TTT, The problem with "pro-skiers" is they are not fully in charge of direction as the crowd dictates where and when to turn, and there is a far less control over which line to choose. I don't care about skiers background if they ski busy recreational pistes as if they were race courses. They are just as dangerous as someone who has no idea what he's doing. In any case it make me smile just thinking about all these "experts" who apparently prefer caning red slopes at mach speeds terrifying beginners:)
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Quote: |
The majority of British holiday skiers can get around on skis but are just riding on their skis rather than driving their skis as they have not had the opportunity or invested the time and money in lessons and delude themselves they know what they are doing but simply don't.
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TTT, I think that it more than a little unfair to holiday skiers to say that the majority of us delude ourselves that we know what we are doing and we don't. Yes, there might be a minority that fall into that category, but on the whole I think the majority of holiday skiers understand their limitations. Hell if the majority of holiday skiers are zazzing down the pistes with delusions of grandeur wrt. their skiing then I think hospital construction needs to be tripled and insurance premiums sent through the roof. That whole statement sounds a little conceited if you ask me!
Last edited by You'll need to Register first of course. on Wed 19-12-12 10:00; edited 1 time in total
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To my mind a real pro will not really ski any where his full potential unless there is a clear run. I suspect a beginner does not realize how quickly a really good skier can stop or change direction and I suspect a really good local skier does not realize how intimidating their speed is for a beginner. I agree it is still very wrong to intimidate beginners/intermediates even if they are not really endangering others. The first rule is quite rightly respect for others.
Magamum, you have obviously never had the dubious pleasure of skiing with some of my friends. It was a generalisation and I'm certain you do not fall into that category. In reality, there are pure one week holiday skiers and also holiday skiers who work on improving their skiing. However, if people are not deluding themselves about their skiing ability then why do so many not take lessons? Money yes but I suspect it also for the same reason that England will never win the football world cup again. There is something in the British physche about not investing the time and effort in improving technique. I'm afraid you only have to look down for the ski lift in peak season to see there is a lot of truth in the cliche about 80% of skiers being intermediates and 80% of those thinking they can ski. I don't see a problem as long as people are skiing within their abilities other than they are missing out on a lot of the joy of skiing. The people I really have a problem is the people going at high speed who who think they are good but actually have no control over their speed or direction.
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I'd say a fair proportion of British holiday skiers are women, I'd guess proportionally less than the 52% (or whatever the figure is) of their total in the UK population but still a sizeable number, and I'd suggest women are far more likely to ski within their limits and ski safely than their male counterparts of whatever age, in fact I'd go as far as to say virtually *all* the people I've noticed skiing dangerously or too fast for their skill level have been male. Given that and if we accept the problem generally lies in the male population we're probably not talking about a majority but I'd say a sizeable minority, perhaps (and here I'm grabbing figures a bit randomly) 25% of the total (male and female) or so. That'd represent a fair proportion of the male skiing population and I'd guess (as with dangerous driving) they'd be slightly more likely to be under 30 than over it although I've met some older than that who are just as dangerous and plenty under 30 who ski safely and sensibly.
As for Brit skiers I'd say you could add a lot of other holiday skiers to the mix, say Parisiens in France, so just singling out the Brits is perhaps a trice unfair!
Dunno what the thing with pro skiers is, are we talking ESF instructors, racers, all instructors or what? Yes fast speed can be intimidating to beginners but as I think has been pointed out there are appropriate speeds for different circumstances. Any racer or pro bombing down a very crowded blue or green at the same speed they do a course at is being inconsiderate and potentially dangerous given the number of bodies around but doing so on a piste that's relatively clear is different and in my experience these guys will not be straight lining but doing very fast turns of whatever radius. The unskilled skier bombing down the same relatively clear piste however is dangerous because they lack the tools to control their speed and they will not be able to kill their speed fast and in circumstances where they need to will most likely wipe out.
So far this season the only people I've noticed who were IMHO dangerous have been first day skiers who thought they didn't need lessons and could ski uncontrolled down a nursery slope in poor vis until they crashed (1 male, 1 female "we're students and can't afford lessons"), a bloke who couldn't snow plough but thought he'd learn by pointing his skis down a reasonably busy blue and a number of people (all male so far) who although barely past basic snow plough thought they could straight line it down the mountain using a braking snow plough for control. All skiers you should note and almost all nowhere near the stage where they were turning with any regularity. Come Xmas and New Year I guess it'll change and there will be more 'intermediate' bombers and crazy boarders but all of these so far were notable by the fact they clearly needed lessons in order to make them in any way safe.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| moffatross wrote: |
| TTT wrote: |
| if someone does not like bumps it suggests that they are neither competent or in control |
I actually started to type a sensible, reasoned reply but it's easier just to say, 'what a load of sh..'.
If you'd written "if someone cannot ski bumps competently and in control, it suggests that they are neither competent or in control", then fair enough. |
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| never summer wrote: |
| moffatross, Usually people who don't like bumps are the same who cannot ski them. |
Honestly, never summer, do you think I didn't clock the point of that original, rather glib, patronising inference that fellow snowhead, BlooMountain was less worthy than the collected ski gods in this thread for stating that he/she loathed moguls ? Personally, I've only skied about 200 days which I have to assume is very much less than most of the other contributors in here have, but even for me, passing through a field of bumps is an unphasing piece of piss. That is to say, it's a boring, repetitive, tiresome, unphasing piece of piss that serves to remind me of all the reasons why I mostly prefer skiing where other people haven't. And in my observation (I won't say 'usually' though  ), repetitive bump skills gained from lots of weeks of Alpine megaresort skiing are not necessarily directly transferable to difficult, variable, narrow, off-piste conditions as I have witnessed with a couple of skiers who discovered this on their first visit to Scotland.
Damn', I know I should have kept my butt out of here yesterday but threads like this do get cringe-worthy and if they have to be done at all, should be kept short, sweet and to the point, not become protracted, multi-page, 2 year old love-ins.
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TTT,
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There is something in the British physche about not investing the time and effort in improving technique.
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I think what happening is that people want to start enjoying their holiday asap and for many enjoyment means spending as much time as possible with their mates or families. So often you read even here "We are going to have absolute beginners with us but still want to ski together". Worse when they do this to children and there are often 10 y.o. on their 6-8 holiday still snowploughing on blues behind their parents because they got pulled out of ski schools as soon as they could turn their skis so that the family could have their "quality time" together. Many simply don't understand that skiing is a serious sport even if practiced recreationally and slopes are not amusement parks, and good technique is not just what only pro's need, but everyone needs it too to be able to enjoy mountains with more safety and not to ask "how steep", "how icy", "how busy" and that good technique doesn't come to you by mileage alone.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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The comment was a reaction to the suggestion that someone is generally likely to be a safe and competent skier after 7 weeks skiing and no formal tuition and that tuition is really not necessary . It really depends on the definition of the word competent. In reality bump skiing does require and demonstrate good control over direction and speed and whether someone likes them or not are a good way to test and improve technique and make someone a safer skier for themselves and others. I sympathise with the sentiments though as anyone with any sense at whatever level should be humble enough to ski within their limits and realise that they would benefit from tuition/coaching if they want to be a better/safer skier.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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never summer, got to agree. There's a marked difference between the three groups of holiday pootlers, the knownowt nutters and the snowHead elite on their 'everquest' to technique perfection and it is a bad mix all over the hill. Good respectful skiers and the pootles are fine on the bumble slopes but the nutters are playing pinball with the pootles while on the gnarl(e) . . . I'm getting the hang o'slang . . . the nutters cause obstruction and havoc to the practiced skiers.
It's never going to improve until the learnt-all, knownowts actually are either taken off the hill by the piste police as happens in some US resorts (sometimes to excess, I have been radar gunned over here) or some form of licencing is introduced . . . and that won't happen. We're stuck with this situation of people thinking that once you stop falling down there's no more to learn.
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I feel that the French themselves have some of the blame to hold on to here, as was previously stated a nice smooth well groomed race tracks encourage high speed. The Swiss slopes are nowhere near as well bashed so if you try to build your speed high without the skills you will end up on your back bottom sooner than expected.
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You know it makes sense.
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I confess i fell in the same trap of wanting to be with friends rather than take lessons. I never thought that it was particularly big or clever at the time but it really was just stupid. The problem is also that some of the instruction is just poor. Skiing should always be safe and fun.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| BlooMountain wrote: |
That is exactly what I meant about elitism in skiing why does someone HAVE to love skiing mogul fields to be a good skier? I can ski, everything I need to do, I can do, I don't endanger anyone, EVER, not even myself, the fact that I haven't had a fall in the past 4 seasons suggests that I am actually not pushing my boundaries hard enough. Last year I went with a ski host group of 'advanced' skiers and kept up just fine, the guy gave me a couple of tips about skiing off piste but other than that in his words 'You're a great little skier' meaning that I'm no pro, but I have control and can enjoy myself.
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As you're determined to have a fight 2 points:
- Most people who can really ski don't have an opinion on moguls - they'll do them if they're there or the other terrain is boring or they do genuinely like doing them, they don't dislike them.
- A TO ski host group badged advance isn't really a ranking - most advanced skiers won't be lumbering themselves with a mobile faff fest.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| moffatross wrote: |
| repetitive bump skills gained from lots of weeks of Alpine megaresort skiing are not necessarily directly transferable to difficult, variable, narrow, off-piste conditions as I have witnessed with a couple of skiers who discovered this on their first visit to Scotland. |
Sorry to but in but I'd suggest the more versatile you are the better and I've not been averse to suggesting in the past that those who are loudest in condemning Scottish conditions might need to work on their skill levels a bit, dare I say the same could legitimately be suggested with regards moguls?! It's something we often don't have enough of these days in Scotland but I can just about remember the days when we sat amazed at the side of what seemed at the time to be the permanent White Lady bumps field being wowed by the 'repetitive' skills of the few who could do the run with skill, I suspect there are very few round these 'ere parts who could do the same these days and I say that as someone who fully expects to fail L3 ISIA Tech at least once on mogul skills!
| fatbob wrote: |
| BlooMountain wrote: |
That is exactly what I meant about elitism in skiing why does someone HAVE to love skiing mogul fields to be a good skier? I can ski, everything I need to do, I can do, I don't endanger anyone, EVER, not even myself, the fact that I haven't had a fall in the past 4 seasons suggests that I am actually not pushing my boundaries hard enough. Last year I went with a ski host group of 'advanced' skiers and kept up just fine, the guy gave me a couple of tips about skiing off piste but other than that in his words 'You're a great little skier' meaning that I'm no pro, but I have control and can enjoy myself.
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As you're determined to have a fight 2 points:
- Most people who can really ski don't have an opinion on moguls - they'll do them if they're there or the other terrain is boring or they do genuinely like doing them, they don't dislike them.
- A TO ski host group badged advance isn't really a ranking - most advanced skiers won't be lumbering themselves with a mobile faff fest. |
2 points:
1. I don't think he's listening/reading any more, he's wound peeps up and has now b*ggered off - classic! 
2. I hope the host giving these "tips" wasn't in France, if he was I suspect the ESF might have a thing or two to say about that!
P.S. It appears BlooMountain must definitely be an advanced skier because he kept up with an "advanced" group and ski host, all I can say I want my money back for all those months and years of skiing, hundreds of hours of lessons, coaching sessions and all that BASI training I undertook before I even considered myself to be even vaguely in advanced territory, I'm off to cry into my beanie
P.P.S. Do you reckon if I find a ski host with another 'advanced' group and I ski faster than them I could be an expert because I could save myself loads more weeks of skiing and hundreds in training costs if that's the case?
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