 Poster: A snowHead
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Wear The Fox Hat, I'm with easiski on this one. My first proper teacher would always take people through a sequence of 1) just standing in the bindings to get body position right, 2) moving into a slow forward traverse, 3) turning up the hill to stop then 4) side slipping. Only when all this was secure would he even contemplate a turn, after having done garlands first. The advent of carving skis may have made sideslipping less central to skiing technique than it once was, but aside from its use in getting you through tricky patches, it's a super way of learning balance and edge control, particularly in that falling leaf pattern, where subtle changes in balance take you from straight down to diagonally forward or backwards. My experience of American teaching is very limited (and the most counterproductive, misconceived and frankly dangerous lessons I've ever had), but to consider sideslipping as only an advanced technique seems seems completely @rse-about-face to me.
Also, I still don't see any relationship between side-slipping and W (not that I've ever done that exercise) or J turns. Side-slipping is specifically about NOT making turns. Whether the falling leaf traces a similar pattern in the snow as the W turn or not - and I don't think it does, as that W is not a W but a UU - seems irrelevant, as they're completely different techniques (as you describe them).
D G Orf, I think we did something on kick turns a few months back. I have to say I think I did my first (downhill) one this year! The problem is that half way through you are (or at least I am) in a pretty precarious balance, and I'm certainly concerned a fall then could do some serious twisting to your knees. As a beginner I'm not sure what I'd have done in such a position - probably not get into it in the first place, but failing that a snowplough or stem - or if that wasn't on, maybe a "sit down and wave the skis in the air turn". Now I'd jump it, or pivot parallel if there's a suitable bump around. I may be strange  , but I'm much happier on uphill than downhill kick turns  , and they're certainly nothing an on-piste skier need ever concern themselves with.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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GrahamN, The uphill ones only work on relatively shallow slopes though! I would prefer a novice to sit, flip the skis over and stand back up again rather than risk a kick turn on a steep hill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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easiski, if the slope gets too steep for the conventional uphill (and I've certainly managed them on a 30 degree slope), you can take the uphill foot back round and down first, then work the downhill (now uphill) ski around to face the new direction. Not got that one perfected yet, but it works on pretty much any slope you're likely to find yourself on. I agree with you about the "sit down and wave the skis in the air turn" for a novice, as I said above.
Edit - ah may be a difference here in that I'm talking about doing uphills with touring bindings in free-heel mode - I guess it could be significantly different if you've got a fixed heel.
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GrahamN, I think the knack with downhill kickturns is not to stop half way through (ie when you're facing straight downhill with the skis in either direction). If you get it to be a flowing movement, it's a bit less stressful - physically and mentally!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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GrahamN,
I wouldn't want to attempt an uphill one on a 30 degree slope!
As you say, maybe it's different with touring bindings.
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| My experience of American teaching is very limited (and the most counterproductive, misconceived and frankly dangerous lessons I've ever had), |
Where was it, and who was the instructor?
(This is one of the great things about forums, as has been mentioned elsewhere - you can get names of good instructors to get, and bad ones to avoid!)
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| GrahamN wrote: |
Edit - ah may be a difference here in that I'm talking about doing uphills with touring bindings in free-heel mode - I guess it could be significantly different if you've got a fixed heel. |
touring bindings make a huge difference for uphill kick turns
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GrahamN, the trick is to have absolute confidence in your ability, if you have then you can do kick turns every time with no worries, if not you're likely to fall, practice, practice, practice until it's second nature
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Arno, I'm reading that as in the "making it easier" direction (obviously technique's different too - you don't need anything like the heel flick when it's fixed).
D G Orf, no doubt you're right , and I've not messed one up yet - but it just feels so dodgy.
Wear The Fox Hat, you also get posters with less experience than they think making a mountain out of one bad experience, so you should probably take my contributions on this subject with a degree of circumspection. Anyway, here goes. It was at Breckenridge at spring break in 2000 IIRC (anyway...the year they opened Blue Sky Basin at Vail) - and distance may mean some of my recollections aren't as accurate as they should be. (Un?)Fortunately I can't remember any names.
I was in about my 7th week on skis, and wanted to crack moguls, they being then (and probably still now) my weakest discipline. I signed up for 3 full day group lessons for the excellent price of $100 (so I shouldn't complain too much). I'd done a few runs down Pylons at Argentiere, v slowly and dreadfully, but I had the basics - so joined the Advanced group (I was possibly stretching myself a bit there, but at no point did they suggest I should go down a group). As it was a "see who turns up" arrangement, we got a different instructor each day. The first day (Monday) there were about 5 of us, and we headed off to the bumps. I was probably in the middle of the ability range, but the weakest probably dropped out half way through the morning, and the next at lunchtime. I don't remember this instructor clearly, but IIRC he was about 6'4" and may have come from Calif. - so that narrows it down not one jot  . Anyway the technique he was teaching us was to keep the feet at least shoulder width apart - which mostly meant that one foot was on the top of the bump while the other was steering a completely different path through the gully between them, and then they switched roles as you went round the next. I thought then (as now) that this is a completely idiotic idea (hence the "misguided") - as I've never seen any remotely competent mogul skier doing that. I've also never felt closer to breaking an ankle or twisting a knee (and came within a whisker of doing so on one fall - hence the "dangerous"). Still, I tried to stick with it. At the end of the week though, I was skiing moguls worse than when I started...hence the "counter-productive". I've since gone back to a feet together approach for bumps (with spreading when appropriate/necessary), as taught in subsequent lessons, which works infinitely better.
Despite misgivings I went back for the next lesson on Wednesday. This time ther were only three of us, IIRC an Aussie about the same ability as me (or maybe a bit weaker - he'd only started that year but was skiing pretty much full time through the season) and a better guy - who was only doing a half day. This time we went for some steeps, with small bumps. This instructor was a short black guy from Georgia, and he was excellent. He worked on our weaknesses and reinforced our strengths, and we were both skiing better at the end of the day than the beginning.
Buoyed up by the Wednesday session I went back on Friday. This was with another white guy - about whom I can remember nothing, other than it was pretty much a "suivez moi" kind of day. I was the weakest in the group (of probably 3-4) and basically just trying to keep up. At the end of the day, I tried finishing off with a run down probably "Tiger" or "Southern Cross", which I'd been making fair stabs at earlier in the week, and made a complete pigs ear of it - and I don't think it was just tiredness, my technique seemed to have completely deserted me....more of the "counter-productive".
So not a great experience. I also have to say I was not inspired by the skiing at Breckenridge. I did however love Keystone - skied about 12-13 hours that day, with only 20 minutes stop for lunch and about 45 for tea, when I realised my legs wouldn't support me any longer. I have to say that "Oh Bob" was probably the most difficult "blue" I've ever seen - the moguls were huge and just as hard as Argentiere's Pylons - just on a basically flat run (which I'm pretty sure seemed to make it harder!). I also pretty much liked Vail, and particularly the runs off the edge at Blue Sky Basin ("Iron Mask" was super, my attempt at "Steep and Deep" rather too ambitious though).
I did fall in by accident (as it turned out to be Spring Break the Youth Hostel was full) to a wonderful B&B - the Albert Placer Inn. Run by an ex-Vietnam helicopter pilot and his wife they ran it as a real home from home. At that time they ran the basement as a bunk-room (hence the referral from the YH), but they said they weren't going to do that in future years. We had a great time - a few Brits, a couple of Swiss (one Argentinian-Swiss?) and a few Yanks, all mixed in with the flush types from the rooms upstairs. Don't know if they still run it, but worth checking out if you're heading to Breck.
Anyway - trying to tie this in with the subject of the thread (however tenuously) - at that time I felt I was definitely on an intermediate plateau - I pretty much knew what I should be doing, but my mind, reactions and balance wouldn't let me do it. The way to get off it is as D G Orf says above "practice, practice, practice until it's second nature" - and keep checking with someone else (like an instructor) that you're actually trying to do what you think you are.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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GrahamN, My friends who work in the States tell me that as Americans have almost no holiday time, people don't usually book a whole week, so they don't have the same class system as we do. consequently (they tell me) they have to start selling the next day's lesson about half way through the first to assure themselve of the same clients tomorrow??! Your multiple instructors is clearly not an unusual occurrance, but is obviously counter-productive! Since the more returns they get the more work they get and the more they earn, selling is the name of the game! I should have thought that the lessons should sell themselves.
BTW I gather that the Brits are universally disliked because they don't tip!
D G Orf, Ditto, but I've never liked them much - do them in really dodgy situations, but still hate them! 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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D G Orf, easiski, For once it looks like I ay have been tought the right things early on during my skiing learning curve. Traversing and sideslipping were introduced very early in my education. My instructor even 'sought out' some small icy patches to demonstrate the real value of sideslipping.
I note that a lot of recent debate is around the subject of 'kick-turns'. I'm pretty sure I haven't been tought them but was wondering why you would need to learn them on modern skis?
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You know it makes sense.
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| easiski wrote: |
| My friends who work in the States tell me that as Americans have almost no holiday time, people don't usually book a whole week, so they don't have the same class system as we do. consequently (they tell me) they have to start selling the next day's lesson about half way through the first to assure themselve of the same clients tomorrow??! Your multiple instructors is clearly not an unusual occurrance, but is obviously counter-productive! Since the more returns they get the more work they get and the more they earn, selling is the name of the game! I should have thought that the lessons should sell themselves. |
My friends in the states would disagree with you vehemently, because returns are the key, but you don't get those by giving bad lessons. But paying $100 for 3 days sounds odd to me. I've yet to do a multi-day lesson in the US or Canada with a change of instructor.
But I guess I should shut up now, because Europe is the only place in the world which is cheap and has good instructors...
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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eEvans,
Kick turns are useful in really dodgy offpiste situations - if there is no space to turn or the snow is awful. They can get you out of tricky places.
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Poster: A snowHead
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beanie1,
The following words do not belong on the same page . let alone in the same sentence
eEvans, offpiste, snow is awful, tricky places ...
undoubtedly explains why I haven't been taught them ! 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Sometimes you will end up coming to a stop in an awkward position, it could be for any number of reasons, avoiding someone who's just fallen, poor visibility, an unexpected rock, whatever, you've ended up in a situation where you havn't got the space or speed to do a normal turn, that's when kick turns are useful, when you need to turn 180 degrees and have no space to do so
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| But paying $100 for 3 days sounds odd to me. I've yet to do a multi-day lesson in the US or Canada with a change of instructor. |
It was the main Breckenridge ski-school. Their rates for group lessons that year were IIRC $50 for a half-day, $60 for a full day and $100 for 3 full days. I wasn't intending to sign up for 3 days, but at that price I really couldn't turn it down. Private lessons were considerably more expensive - and with groups that size they were virtually private lessons anyway. Continuity was clearly not normally an issue, as I don't think any of the others in the lessons turned up for more than one day. In retrospect, I think I got more out of a 2 hour lesson (2 of us in a private lesson, me the weaker technically) with the ESF the previous year (no generalisations necessarily implied).
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I have friends in Beaver Creek, Park City and at least one who works/has worked in Aspen. This is what they tell me. You also sell successfully if you have a "cute/quaint" accent etc. One of my friends has been there for years, has a lot of returns etc, but tells me you have to tailor your lessons to this end. This seems bizzare to me. If someone comes for 3 private lessons; say, Sunday Tuesday and Wednesday, after seeing them ski, I'll have a rough plan to move them on during that time period. They might not get "it" until Weds - but that's OK. If the pressure to sell is so intense then you have to teach them something particular on Sunday to get them to come back on Monday and so on. This is not the ideal way to teach people to ski, as you're then teaching them one thing (which may be irrelevant) rather than the whole concept. 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I was taught sideslipping - not as a safety device - but as a progression in making a basic parallel turn. i.e. traverse on edges, flatten skis, let the skis run into the fall line, change edges, traverse. In some exercises we would let the skis run a few metres in the fall line before we carved up the hill. It teaches you that you actually do have control!
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easiski, I'll ask Weems (former SSD of Apsen) about that practice when I'm skiing with him at the ESA
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| Sometimes you will end up coming to a stop in an awkward position, it could be for any number of reasons, ... |
I entirely agree, kick turns are very useful and I use them. Further, I often ski with a very experienced mountain guide. He frequently tells our group to wait whilst he checks the snow ahead. Mostly he then says to follow him, but many times he does a kick turn and skis or walks away to find better snow. On other occasions he will just do a couple of kick turns down some difficult snow before completing a pitch in perfect style. In this latter case I suspect he does kick turns to hint to us that we should do them rather than trying something else in leg-breaking snow.
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Wear The Fox Hat, I'd be interested to hear what they have to say, although I suspect it's probably a habit the instructors get into in order to generate more returns and consequently more income, rather than an official policy. The problem I see is that as your wages are tied to returns and requests etc. there is enormous pressure to ensure this. Here (if you work in a ski school) your hourly wages will be the same whether they're returning clients or not, whether they're private clients or group lessons. If you don't do your job well then you just don't get so much work, and if clients aren't happy with you they don't book you again. The point is that you don't actually have to persuade the people to come back, the lessons either do or don't - simple!
erica2004, Absolutely, but all the variations of sideslipping/edge control are valuable and can be used at different stages of your ski-ing and for different reasons. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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RobH, The trouble is that many,many holiday skiers can't see the point in improving, but often like to blame "the plateau" for this. there is really only one answer - learn your way off it!
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