 Poster: A snowHead
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As well as reckless (unsuitable) speed, the one thing that seems to be a big accident risk here in Les Arcs is people stopping in the middle of the piste, time and time again I see people standing, having a chat, eating their lunch etc - would these people stand in the middle of the N90? Nope but they seem happy to stand in the middle of a fast red and damn the consequences.
Now there's been a fair number of occasions (perhaps 10 or more) where I've come across a ski-school group (ESF & Arc adventure are the main culprits) stopped in the middle of the piste - I can understand how this happens when a kiddie falls over but when it's an adult group on a red run then is there a need for it? I'd be interested in feedback from easiski, rob@rar and others as to whether there are only certain drills that can be initiated when in the middle of the piste? or do you always try to group your class at the side of the piste - certainly when I had lessons with New Gen this season, John always 'collected' us against the edge of the piste, and if we weren't closed up always made sure we did.
My concern is that if instructors are providing tacit approval of stopping in the middle of the piste, then pupils will aceept that as the norm and not learn good practice - I've had to remind a fair number of seasonaires too...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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bertie bassett, when the ski instuctors are setting a bad example, it is not surpising that the rest follow !! (Easiski and Rob notable exclusions I am sure)
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| bertie bassett wrote: |
| Now there's been a fair number of occasions (perhaps 10 or more) where I've come across a ski-school group (ESF & Arc adventure are the main culprits) stopped in the middle of the piste - I can understand how this happens when a kiddie falls over but when it's an adult group on a red run then is there a need for it? I'd be interested in feedback from easiski, rob@rar and others as to whether there are only certain drills that can be initiated when in the middle of the piste? or do you always try to group your class at the side of the piste - certainly when I had lessons with New Gen this season, John always 'collected' us against the edge of the piste, and if we weren't closed up always made sure we did. |
Nope, it's just sloppy teaching. Sometimes an area is so wide that it doesn't really matter where you stop, just so long as you park your group neatly (the area underneath the 2300 chairlift above Peisey for example). But on a normal width piste I can't think of a reason why stopping your group anywhere other than the piste margin would be advantageous.
Throughout the training I've done so far with BASI it has been drilled in to us that our priorities are safety, enjoyment and learning, in that order. For the first couple of hours of my L2 course all we did was practice bringing a group to a stop in safety by skiing behind the group at the piste margin and 'parking' in a line below the skier who had stopped in front of them. I thought this was a bit anal at the time (after all, we were all experienced skiers), but as the course went on I realised that it was a safe and time-effective way to manage the group and I've tried to emulate that in my own teaching.
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bertie bassett,
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a ski-school group (ESF & Arc adventure are the main culprits) stopped in the middle of the piste
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I noticed that (ESF groups) twice in nine days, in Les Arcs. 
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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bertie bassett, In general, certainly you should always try to stop your group near the edge of the piste, but if, as Rob says, the piste is wide, with clear view (and bearing in mind that I'm mostly of a fenced off green run for teaching) I see no reason to necessarily stop there. Moderate novices actually often can't stop right at the edge but need more turn space to stop in. Funny Rob talking about 'parking' on the BASI course - I've got quite ratty with some of my students in the last 2 weeks after telling them (and explaining why) several times to stop under the person in front ....  Agreed that ski teachers need to set an example, and sadly I see examples of how not to do it on a daily basis.
WRT this thread and others on this forum at the moment; what I keep hearing is about novice skiers holding up more experienced, or faster, or skiers who want to jump, ON BLUE PISTES. Hermmmmmmmm .... blue pistes ARE FOR NOVICES - they are EASY for that very reason, so if anyone is more competent or faster (not, of course the same thing), they should just SLOW DOWN, not take jumps, and give the novices some space. If anyone is good enough to do jumps etc. etc. they should do this on more difficult pistes not spend their time terrorizing novices. 
moffatross, Yes - well Scottish skiing (esp. Glencoe) is real skiing - not just sliding around on sloping billiard tables. 
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rob@rar, we were taught by ESF in Flaine as beginners. We were told always to stop below the previous skier as you have just described. We were surprised others we spoke to recently had not been taught to do this.
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WRT this thread and others on this forum at the moment; what I keep hearing is about novice skiers holding up more experienced, or faster, or skiers who want to jump, ON BLUE PISTES. Hermmmmmmmm .... blue pistes ARE FOR NOVICES - they are EASY for that very reason, so if anyone is more competent or faster (not, of course the same thing), they should just SLOW DOWN, not take jumps, and give the novices some space. If anyone is good enough to do jumps etc. etc. they should do this on more difficult pistes not spend their time terrorizing novices. |
Well said easiski,
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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easiski, I remember Francois Pinatel commenting, as only he could, on people who ski fast on blue pistes. it went something like this:
"bof - i say, 'why are you skiing fast here? i will show you somewhere you can ski fast' "
something about the glint in his eye made you think that only the brave or foolhardy would take him up on that 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Arno, "bof"?
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red 27, "bof" - the french start every sentence with it - haven't you been listening? 
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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easiski, with all respect, two of my favourite descents (possibly favourite ever in my life) were straight lining the blue piste B (home run) on Pleney, Morzine behind a pisteur friend after he'd & colleagues had closed and cleared the slopes (we blagged ourselves onto the 17h30 benne to the hotel for a sundowner at the top) - I have never, ever, taken such air... and GSing at full chat from the summit of Blackcomb into Blackcomb village off the first tram behind our CSIA instructor (I think he started out trying to gauge our collective ability and then we all got a tad competitive).
One case was all blue, one a mix of blue and red. The delight arose from being able to run the skis as fast as the gradient would make them go. Turning was optional.
The key point being that no one else was on the slopes involved.
Perhaps we need to change slope colour grading to reflect the speed (and control) expected rather than the "perceived" difficulty...i.e. have steep blue slopes where you expect to find novices in difficulty and modest black ones where you can get speed experience on your SGs or DP Pros...if you see what I mean...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| under a new name wrote: |
Perhaps we need to change slope colour grading to reflect the speed (and control) expected rather than the "perceived" difficulty...i.e. have steep blue slopes where you expect to find novices in difficulty and modest black ones where you can get speed experience on your SGs or DP Pros...if you see what I mean... |
Well, no, to be honest 
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ccl, OK, let's refine it. Two colours/patterns/whatever. One for gradient and one for speed limit. And introduce licences.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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under a new name, pussy I once straightlined an entire black straight off the lift.
( North American single black at a resort generous in its gradings in 1ft of fresh sierra cement)
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Arno, was that before or after
"bof, do not be afraid you English pussies" as he straightlined into the distance whistling ELO classics
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fatbob, were you upright?
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I was irritated last week by an ESF instructor who stood faffing around with his charges just off the top of a draglift - so I had to thread my way through them, on my snowboard. Would "foutez le camp!" be a suitable thing to yell?
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| under a new name wrote: |
| ccl, OK, let's refine it. Two colours/patterns/whatever. One for gradient and one for speed limit. And introduce licences. |
And traffic lights at junctions. And I want the sheriff's badge and a blue flashing light on top of my helmet.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| fatbob wrote: |
under a new name, pussy I once straightlined an entire black straight off the lift.
( North American single black at a resort generous in its gradings in 1ft of fresh sierra cement) |
Which?
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easiski, perhaps what I'm saying (after a few Leffes now) is that resort/piste skiing may need to evolve at least in terms of policing.I do not want to have my young nieces having to have Soph and I skiing interference behind them while Dad leads. Equally, I won't ski at "my" speed on a blue run with anyone near me who might get scared.
I would say that I could simply do my favourite and ski where no-one else does, but that leaves me a little unstuck when skiing with said nieces plus less experienced mates, etc.
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You know it makes sense.
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| laundryman wrote: |
| fatbob wrote: |
under a new name, pussy I once straightlined an entire black straight off the lift.
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Which? |
A run at Sierra on a storm day - you had to straightline it to keep going to be honest quite entertaining as there was a kind of slow motion race between people doing the same thing.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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fatbob, he he , a mate and I once straightlined the black below Pleney bubble (Morzine) and had to take our skis off to move forwards...
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Sat 18-04-09 7:20; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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It is just decent behaviour, when all said and done. If you want to buzz people, then I suggest a decent wipe-out/accident will slow you down....ie, one that hurts YOU or scares YOU somewhat...and then you might grow up abit.
If the hill is yours then, fair enough, you can do as you want...almost...but you need to take some responsibility...
Generally however, some of your mistakes might have life-chaging consequenses elswhere...
so do to others as you would have done to you...and remember that we were all beginners once....
and I doubt it will not be too long before people are charged with a form of assault, such is the carnage in some places .
It isn't an easy sport and accidents do happen... it is just that some people could think a bit more, before adding to the statistics.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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I recall a US-based liftie being sentenced to a lot of prison, a few years ago, for colliding with, and killing, a young woman. The fact that he was supposedly an expert skier was a major factor in his receiving such a stiff sentence. However expert people think they are, they don't have 100% control at daft speeds. Wasn't there a downhill racer killed a few seasons ago, after colliding with an official who shouldn't have been on the course. Presumably she was more expert than anybody posting here, but still unable to avoid just one person on the run?
Speed limits should be pretty easy to enforce, with modern laser guns.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Speed limits should be pretty easy to enforce, with modern laser guns. |
I sincerely hope not. I think that's a terrible idea. Reckless and dangerous skiing should not be tolerated. Skiing fast is most certainly not the same thing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
| Speed limits should be pretty easy to enforce, with modern laser guns. |
I sincerely hope not. I think that's a terrible idea. Reckless and dangerous skiing should not be tolerated. Skiing fast is most certainly not the same thing. |
Well said.
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I would argue that skiing above a certain speed, on crowded pistes full of tottering beginners, is definitely dangerous, however good you think you are. It is also very scary, as easisi notes above. I agree entirely that reckless skiing is not the same thing as fast skiing. Reckless driving doesn't equal fast, either, and there are plenty of drivers who think they can "handle the speed". They're sometimes wrong; like that policeman who killed someone doing 98 mph in a built up area.
As in the example I mentioned above, even world class skiers can't necessarily take optimum evasive action if they come across something unexpected. There was just one man on that run, and she hit him and killed herself.
I was bumped into a few weeks ago by a bloke who must have weighed at least 15 stone, was 6 foot tall and totally out of control. He was a snowploughing beginner. I saw him coming and managed to hold both of us up, as we did a stately waltz at about 3 mph. I was glad he wasn't out of control at 20 mph.
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| pam w wrote: |
| I would argue that skiing above a certain speed, on crowded pistes full of tottering beginners, is definitely dangerous, however good you think you are. It is also very scary, as easisi notes above. I agree entirely that reckless skiing is not the same thing as fast skiing. |
Which is why trying to reduce the number of reckless skiers by using speed guns is inappropriate. I agree that even a relatively slow speed on a crowded nursery slope could be considered dangerous (not to mention disrespectful to those people new to the sport). But skiing very fast on an empty piste is not reckless. Arbitrary speed limits will just kill the fun of skiing...
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Arbitrary speed limits will just kill the fun of skiing...
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I agree, and I wasn't proposing that they be arbitrary. Permanent low speed limits would be appropriate for nursery slopes or those crowded, rather narrow, valley runs which are found in some resorts.
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But skiing very fast on an empty piste is not reckless
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It might be, if you couldn't control your line accurately if you discovered the piste wasn't as empty as you thought.
I get the drift - and clearly it requires some judgement to decide whether someone is skiing "out of control". But North American resorts do seem to be more advanced down this road than European ones and I suspect the very existence of speed limits on nursery/beginner areas would have a salutory effect on a number the dafter people you see around. This hasn't been a problem for me recently, because I ski mostly in a quiet area with few boy racers. But the one day I spent in Meribel this season was a bit of an eye opener.
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| pam w wrote: |
| Permanent low speed limits would be appropriate for nursery slopes or those crowded, rather narrow, valley runs |
How would you know what speed you are travelling at? I have no idea at all about my average or maximum speed on any grade of slope.
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I have no idea at all about my average or maximum speed on any grade of slope.
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I didn't either, until discovering a "speed test" run, with a digital read out. Pretty tame one, a short downhill run with a tight chicane at the top to prevent people straightlining it from much further up the slope. The maximum I managed was 55 kph which is not very fast at all, but too fast to run down a nursery slope. Slope users who didn't know what, say, a 30 kph speed limit meant (and didn't have the wit to just go sensibly slowly through the nursery area) could be invited to go and find out, on a similar test run. If Les Saisies can have one, any resort could have one. Clearly it isn't enough to rely on people's commonsense. Ignorance of the law is no defence.
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FAQ
Probably deserves a thread on it's own so that they can all enjoy the humour, in BZK I suggest 
