 Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller, and you have admitted to teaching in Scotland seemingly in the same era that DG was instructor
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| I used to teach groups of 'em on Cairngorm mid 80s |
Therefore I claim my £5.00 (discount will be fine) 
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Reps used to hand out avalanche transceivers for off piste ventures. That, at least, is better than skiing off piste without one.
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There's a 20 page thread of discussion that could come from that statement. In my view, it definitely ISN'T better. Transceiver + lack of training = disaster.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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boredsurfin, no jumping on my bandwagon 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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boredsurfin, he was there mid 70s in his leather boots, gaitors and moustache. I was a decade later. Not at the scene of the crime, sorry. Tell you what I'll subject myself to a DNA test.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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Reps used to hand out avalanche transceivers for off piste ventures. That, at least, is better than skiing off piste without one.
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There's a 20 page thread of discussion that could come from that statement. In my view, it definitely ISN'T better. Transceiver + lack of training = disaster. |
In the light of boredsurfin's last post, what do you think of avalanche cords ?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Latchigo, prefer denim 
Actually, why not? In many circumstances you'd find the victim faster... while your untrained fellow skiers are desperately trying to work out how their transceiver works.
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Bode Swiller, A good rep does demonstrate how the thing works rather than simply hand them out.
Anyway, if the rep survives they are in a position to look for you - even if you are incapable of using the device yourself. Selfish I know; but still better (from a selfish point of view) than no transceiver at all.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Haggis_Trap, ISIA doesn't really sound much use for going off-piste does it?
Arno Fair point. Last year there was a snowHead (who only posted a few times) complaining because a rep felt his skiing standard wasn't ready for a particular bit of backcountry and wouldn't take him despite the course he had been on. The reps I have skied with have been pretty good at assessing skiers (they saw through me straight away...) but it is difficult to assess off-piste ability... until you go off-piste.
achilles, I don't think Mr Jones is DG.
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Latchigo, Potentially going off topic here, but I have a real problem with the whole transceiver, probe, shovel, avalung, baloon, avalanche cord nonsense. It's the way they are marketed and lightly discussed in the media... "remember, if you're going off-piste, you need this lot traa-laaa". As if it doesn't matter where you go because you're magically protected. I've said it before on here... if you get caught in an avalanche you'd best assume you're DEAD or very seriously injured... 'cos that's the avalanche's job. The odds aren't great. Makes me laugh when I see numpties with huge beer bellies removing their ski jackets in the restaurant revealing their shiney new transceiver (they've also got the pack to match). I just know that that person could NEVER rescue me. There's the shock, the altitude, the impossibility of skiing or climbing down to where you think the victim "might" be, the impossibility of digging through the debris. The action of just "handing" someone a transceiver even with a quick demo, means AVOID. Discuss.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
All deaths are avoidable. |
This is just silly! The only way to avoid avalanches (to take the most obvious risk of off-piste skiing) would be not to ski off piste except on slopes under 20º and overlooked only by slopes under 20º. There is risk on almost any off piste slope and no amount of skill and training can negate it completely. When I and 6 others were caught in an avalanche we were with an extremely good guide on well settled snow in the morning, on a slope of about 25º. I am sure that any other guide would have agreed it was safe - but it wasn't.
Last edited by snowHeads are a friendly bunch. on Tue 23-10-07 12:54; edited 1 time in total
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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In no way am I an SCGB fan but I have been a member for the last 3-ish years but have just this month not renewed my membership. Oh, and I am a southerner, although sadly not upper class 
SCGB reps most definitely cannot teach club members whilst on/off piste or even show them some tips/techniques in difficult areas. I have skied with them a few times and the poor rep couldn't even help me to get down a tricky spot, for fear of him being spotted and it being classed as teaching.
AFAIK, what happened in St Anton was that an SCGB member was talking in a bar about how the SCGB rep that day had showed him how to do something (or something like that) - the Director of the resorts ski school happened to be next to him at the bar.....
Every day, when skiing with a rep, the rep will read out a statement to the effect that they are not guiding or teaching you, you are responsible for assessing the relative risks of the pistes, etc etc. Each day will be aimed at a certain standard of skier, Cruise the blues, adventurous reds, advanced steeps and bumps etc. There may well be an off-piste day by agreement, when a qualified guide will be hired for the day, costs shared between members.
The ski resorts in Scotland do not have SCGB reps - don't know why except I guess it may be more difficult to find willing volunteers to station themselves there for 3 weeks, when there may not be very many skiers during the week on a particularly bad snow week. They don't have a system of utilising in-resort membership to take on this role either in Scotland or elsewhere, maybe at weekends, which seems a shame.
The SCGB role on Freshtracks holidays is different to the reps based in resort.
Mr Jones is not DG 
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snowball, 25 degrees is a lovely angle for an avalanche.
My statement may have been a bit black & white but I say it to counter the gung-ho, let's all go off-piste and we'll be OK mantra... my insurance says I can, I've got all the gear, and my guide has been on a 2 week training course. Yippee. Hope the will's up to date.
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You know it makes sense.
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cathy, reps' accomodation is normally given free by the resort. Perhaps the Scottish resorts aren't prepared to do this, given how marginal the ski resorts' financial survival is?
PS The ski club doesn't seem to have Historic Snow reports for Scotland. I wonder if they plan to start keeping them.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
snowball, 25 degrees is a lovely angle for an avalanche.
My statement may have been a bit black & white but I say it to counter the gung-ho, let's all go off-piste and we'll be OK mantra... my insurance says I can, I've got all the gear, and my guide has been on a 2 week training course. Yippee. Hope the will's up to date. |
Point taken and yes, 25º is a good slope for avalanches and even slopes under 20º can avalanche occasionally. However the state of the snow was such that everyone was surprised it had happened (and it was the first time the guide had been involved in an avalanche).
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Poster: A snowHead
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OK, Back quickly before lunch - so what's been going on?
| Bode Swiller wrote: |
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How many, Bode - and how does that compare with those who have skied with guides?
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One in Verbier about 20 years ago. One in Verbier just last winter (although I don't know what the circumstances were, it's just mentioned in the club's annual report - does any one know what happened?) I'm told there was a third a number of years back but the details of such events doesn't generally get aired in public for all kinds of reasons. Wonder what the "Accident Book" says about non-fatal incidents over the years. Isn't that enough? And why compare with guides etc? All deaths are avoidable. |
Well. Looking at last year's figures, ---oh bums they have one of those dumbed-down presentations rather than neat tabular data - just a sec - 117+630+422+2925+311+1666+284 so that's 63355 of mt toastie's flaming idiots skiing with the reps last season. A good year, so let's knock that down to 5000 on average. So 100,000 individuals skiing with the reps over 20 years. According to what "you're told" (my you are one for reliable figures) that means there have been 3 fatalities per 100, 000 skiers with the reps. So, on average, your chance of a fatal accident when skking with a rep is 0.00003%. If you don't like that, you better start skiing the blue between restaurants, Bodie boy. On second thoughts, don't do that either, there are some 'easy' runs around that are in practice rather risky because of the thugs who treat them like a racetrack. Hmm. Best confine your skiing to an armchair. You are a friend of David Goldsmith's, aren't you?
snowball these days the standard required for a rep is strong purple, I think.
Other snowheads I am content to see Jonny Jones as David Goldsmith. If he's not it's his fault for making himself a clone. And guessing sHs real names is part of the fun.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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achilles, Ah good, I didn't realize they had upped the rep ski-skill requirement.
But why start the calculation 20 years ago and ignore the previous 84 years without any deaths?
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Tue 23-10-07 13:30; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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achilles, I think you need a little lie down.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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achilles, of course my name isn't really David Johnson, I just advertise for him.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, I will avoid further avalanche discussion. You seem to be saying the equipment makes you cavalier - the same reasoning applied to car seat belts amongst others.
Bit naughty if you are describing SCGB members as 'numpties with huge beer bellies' though. Those Snowheads who are not also SCGB members will only get jealous now.
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| cathy wrote: |
| In no way am I an SCGB fan but I have been a member for the last 3-ish years but have just this month not renewed my membership. Oh, and I am a southerner, although sadly not upper class |
A missed opportunity for social climbing then.
After attending the previous AGM in a track suit and trainers, I got my first cravat this year. Looking forward to November now.
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achilles, The Club's annual report says:
"Our reps were busy in 42 resorts, in Europe and North America, with over 3,500 days' skiing and boarding enjoyed over all the resorts."
If people skiied with a rep for half their week (and many must do more than one week), I reckon you're looking at less than 1000 members who actually use the service and most will be the same members using it year after year... I did once bump into the rep in Utah and she hadn't seen a member at all for 3 weeks. So, sorry for the sketchy stats but your 100,000 is way way way off.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Bode Swiller, You are sounding more and more like dear old DG. Give him my regards when you see him.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
Bode Swiller, I will avoid further avalanche discussion. You seem to be saying the equipment makes you cavalier - the same reasoning applied to car seat belts amongst others.
Bit naughty if you are describing SCGB members as 'numpties with huge beer bellies' though. Those Snowheads who are not also SCGB members will only get jealous now. |
"All the gear" defo makes some people cavalier. My view is that I'm far safer with no gear and a proper guide than all the gear and no guide.
Beer bellies... I was just painting the picture
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Bode Swiller, The chief perpetrators of the "buy shiny new equipment" school seem to be - as you say - journalists, and I thought you were one of their number 
Perhaps a more important question is how to get the safety message out to those who go off-piste with no kit, no training, and no one who really appreciates that there is any real danger at all?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| Latchigo wrote: |
| Bode Swiller, You are sounding more and more like dear old DG. Give him my regards when you see him. |
Sadly, I have to report that David was lost to a huge leaf avalanche in Richmond Park recently. Please PM me your credit card details for donations. Bless you all.
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Bode Swiller, Slow day in the office today?
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You know it makes sense.
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Bode Swiller, ...despite the valiant efforts of 200 ski club reps trying to find him with the latest sharpened probes... 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| jonesj71 wrote: |
| Arno wrote: |
The vetting is on ski ability, mountaineering ability, fitness, experience etc. As a leader you want to make sure that people are going to be able to fit together as a team in terms of ability. You hope they'll all get on on a personal level too 
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Such a lot of responsibility for an unqualified person. All that, plus psychological profiling as well.
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The dynamics of a member-led tour and a guide led tour are very different. If you want someone who is doing a "job" for you, you go with a guide and pay them. They will organise everything for you, lead you where it's safe and you can follow them without engaging your own brain.
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You must have skied with the wrong guides over the years. You imply that clients simply follow like sheep. That just ain't true.
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If you want to join a group of people who are doing a tour somewhere which sounds attractive and you're happy going into the mountains without a guide, you can go on a member led tour. You pay a guide a fee plus expenses and then you have your own expenses as well. On a member led tour you just pay for your own expenses. It makes quite a big difference.
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Joining the Freemasons sounds easier to achieve.
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And some people like being responsible for their own decisions in the mountains! Is that really so hard to understand? Amongst the Eagles' membership, there is a feeling that if anything there are too many guide-led tours.
So if you want to pay someone to take responsibility for your safety, go with a UIAGM guide. If you want to join a group of like-minded individuals, take part in the decision-making process, take responsibility for yourself join a club group, be it SCGB, ESC, CAF etc |
I prefer to take my own decisions, and not have the call made by someone who arrived in the resort yesterday, be they either some beardy, or southern hooray. |
well, I seem to have created quite a negative impression, which is a shame.
there certainly isn't psychological profiling and i don't quite know where you got that idea from - must have been an unfortunate choice of words on my part. the only time i have heard of someone getting a definite "black mark" against their name was where they persistently ignored the instructions of a UIAGM guide and therefore put the rest of the group at risk. the references are intended to benefit everyone - they hopefully ensure that everyone is of a similar standard and therefore no-one gets left behind or holds the rest of the group up. i'd expect anyone, qualified or not, to take steps along these lines if they were putting together a group of people they hadn't met before.
if you read my post, you will see that the whole idea of member-led tours is that decisions are made collectively - you can have as much or as little input as you like
when it comes down to it, the ESC is a club. it is actually a very open club - anyone can join - but it's not going to be for everyone. clearly you don't feel you'd benefit from joining and that's fine - no need to be so rude about it though
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Poster: A snowHead
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Bode Swiller ,I think 3.500 is the number of days skied by the reps (when with clients) - you need to multiply that by about 8, in my (not very rercent) experience. So could be 30,000. Also , of course, many people ski with the rep for just one day and don't join (they don't have to unless they ski more than one day in a week). So could be even more. 100,000 sounds like the number of skier days.
Last edited by Poster: A snowHead on Tue 23-10-07 17:23; edited 6 times in total
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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stoatsbrother, I think it's retailers, journos and amateur experts.
boredsurfin, the art of delegation
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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mrtoastie, I have put similar pictures on Snowheads. However it is difficult to discuss the real effect of global warming on Scottish skiing when I don't have access to actual snow depth figures. I gather that the problem, so far as it exists, has been increased melting rather than decreased snowfall.
However this is all off-topic.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| cathy wrote: |
| AFAIK, what happened in St Anton was that an SCGB member was talking in a bar about how the SCGB rep that day had showed him how to do something (or something like that) - the Director of the resorts ski school happened to be next to him at the bar..... |
That figures, the St Anton Ski Schools are very protective of their patch.
I heard a rumour that an SCGB group set off an avalanche but wasn't sure if it had just been created to justify outing the SCGB rep.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Bode Swiller, I am certainly no expert, so please tell me - am I wrong if I am skiing steeper inbounds stuff on a powder day - say in Kicking Horse - to wear a transceiver? or have I been conned by journalists and "non-professional" skiers. Or should I wait for the advice of professionals who might (to give 2 recent examples in this forum) suggest that it was wrong to avoid using pole straps in trees, or that turns should never be made in order to slow down...
Would you defend DGs position that he had never carried a shovel when skiing off-piste? Where are you on the ball of red string issue?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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Oh No !
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| Bode Swiller wrote: |
achilles, The Club's annual report says:
"Our reps were busy in 42 resorts, in Europe and North America, with over 3,500 days' skiing and boarding enjoyed over all the resorts."
If people skiied with a rep for half their week (and many must do more than one week), I reckon you're looking at less than 1000 members who actually use the service and most will be the same members using it year after year... I did once bump into the rep in Utah and she hadn't seen a member at all for 3 weeks. So, sorry for the sketchy stats but your 100,000 is way way way off. |
Hello again, dear heart! I took my figures from page 8 of this year's report -- 'Individuals skiing with reps' . I accept that I may have overestimated the risk per day with the rep, though - since many individuals will have skied several days with reps in a season. So I would now estimate the fatality risk per skier/day with a rep at being 0.00001% or so. Sorry for being unduly alarmist before - and thank you for getting me to review the figures.
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Latchigo, Bode Swiller, .. who is DG... ??? I am intrigued by your references to this mystical DG person throughout this enthralling public debate.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Latchigo, come on - we haven't had a good row for ages
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brian
brian
Guest
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| snowball wrote: |
However it is difficult to discuss the real effect of global warming on Scottish skiing when I don't have access to actual snow depth figures. I gather that the problem, so far as it exists, has been increased melting rather than decreased snowfall.
However this is all off-topic. |
Snow depth figures are a bit meaningless in Scotland where 90% of the hillside might be scoured bare while a skiable gully has several metres of snow in it. Wind direction is just as important as the actual amount of snow falling. I'd love to have stats on %age of runs skiable over the years though.
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FAQ
