 Poster: A snowHead
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| Rogerdodger wrote: |
This was precisely the issue I was referring to @Hoss0610,
When the last round of works was up for discussion the figures being tossed about were.
13 million repair. 16 million to demolish and remove.
Clearly a repair was a far better investment...... |
Except that:
a) the actual cost of the repair (which isn't yet working) is £25 million, almost double their estimate!
and
b) it would be interesting to see how HIE arrived at that £16million for demolish and remove with a detailed breakdown of how the figure was arrived at e.g was any allowance given for any second hand value of the railway carriages, railway system electronic control gear, cables etc?
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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That 16 million demo' is beginning to look like a real good deal.
One thing for certain, that will not be the price today!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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CML has a planning application in for 5m high letters spelling CAIRNGORM along the western edge of the Cas Carpark. That’s to go along with a 5m tall - 12m long wooden ptarmigan (or it might be a fat pigeon?), some sort of water play feature and ball runs - the latter which have been built and are open before the planning application has even been considered by the CNPA. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| haggishunter wrote: |
| CML has a planning application in for 5m high letters spelling CAIRNGORM along the western edge of the Cas Carpark. |
Perhaps they're thinking "Well it worked for HOLLYWOOD"?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Surely CAIRNGONE
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ster wrote: |
| Surely CAIRNGONE |
or even GORMLESS..... 
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| ster wrote: |
Back to that old chesnut of its nothing to do with Scot gov aka SNP eh?
| ster wrote: |
@Haggis_Trap, back to that BS pro SNP point scoring?
The HIE is wholly responsible for executing Scot Govt policy
https://www.hie.co.uk/about-us/our-board/
“The HIE Board normally meet at least six times a year and has overall responsibility for ensuring that we fulfil our statutory duties and meet the aims and objectives set out by the Scottish Government” |
And dont go on about SNP went with the vote, it was non-binding. If the SNP had the courage of its convictions it could have changed it.
And in fact the Scot Gov STILL directs the HIE as the above clearly shows. |
How about you write a letter to the new highland MP on this issue.
Exactly as I have done to MP and MSPs of all political persuasion.
Post back with your reply....
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@Haggis_Trap, not all a bit late now? But I’m sure Scot govt will now direct HIE to do a better job implementing the Scot gov strategy.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ster wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, not all a bit late now? But I’m sure Scot govt will now direct HIE to do a better job implementing the Scot gov strategy. |
HIE asked ScotGov for funding. They presented a totally discredited full business case to ScotGov, which was written back from the conclusions HIE wanted.
ScotGov said they could have a maximum of £9m of additional funding. That wasn’t enough, not even close. So HIE just went asset stripping, selling the Inverness Health Sciences Centre for £10m to fund CML.
| Quote: |
The cost of carrying out the present remedial works to bring the funicular back into service is currently being borne by the contractor, Balfour Beatty.
..snip..
The final out-turn will be determined following completion of the project.
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Appears to basically translate to HIE are running up a massive IOU to the contractors on site.
Every word about CairnGorm is redacted in HIE board minutes, even recently the subject title has been blanked from relevant sections so the word funicular and CairnGorm does not appear!
HIE is not a departmental body that a government minister can explicitly direct. It looks as if the minister at the time had a gun to his head by HIE, threatening a much higher bill by crystallising the section 50 decommissioning costs for removing the ski area in its entirety.
I have attended meetings with various local / community groups with HIE and local MPs/MSPs including ScotGov ministers where HIE have just told bare faced lies to ministers.
This is why the vote in 2017 that @Haggis_Trap refers to matters here, if passed ministers would have been able to explicitly direct development agency decisions.
Not sure what is so hard for certain people to grasp here. ScotGov could have told HIE to not repair the funicular, but HIE would have continued anyway.
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| haggishunter wrote: |
This is why the vote in 2017 that @Haggis_Trap refers to matters here, if passed ministers would have been able to explicitly direct development agency decisions.
Not sure what is so hard for certain people to grasp here. ScotGov could have told HIE to not repair the funicular, but HIE would have continued anyway. |
If the system was so badly broken then Scot Gov could have grasped the nettle and done something about the “rogue” HIE, vote or no vote, which I believe was none binding (or held another vote but I guess unlike referenda, they didn’t want another?) . But it didn’t so abrogated its responsibility.
Not entirely at the doorstep of Scot Gov but they certainly can’t say then have clean hands here.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| ster wrote: |
If the system was so badly broken then Scot Gov could have grasped the nettle and done something about the “rogue” HIE, vote or no vote, which I believe was none binding (or held another vote but I guess unlike referenda, they didn’t want another?) |
Arguing the 2017 vote (for HIE to retain board independent of Holyrood) was technically non-binding is clutching at straws.
This was a cross-party vote and the government choose to accept democratic results - even though it wasn't their chosen outcome.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Unlike the SNP’s and your approach on referenda in terms of accepting the democratic result?
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| ster wrote: |
| Unlike the SNP’s and your approach on referenda in terms of accepting the democratic result? |
Please post in the correct topic rather than ruining this one.
https://snowheads.com/ski-forum/viewtopic.php?p=5321846#5321846
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Tue 6-08-24 13:20; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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@Haggis_Trap, like you ruined that one already.
We are full of double standards today, aren’t we.
And my comment here is more than relevant, I didn’t bring up respecting the democratic process in the first place here, just pointed out how they/you are very selective about which democratic process you accept .
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ster wrote: |
| .... just pointed out how they/you are very selective about which democratic process you accept . |
Please stop : this is a thread about Cairngorm funicular.
It is not another independence thread for badly informed unionist trolls.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| ster wrote: |
Not entirely at the doorstep of Scot Gov but they certainly can’t say then have clean hands here. |
Nor can the Labour Scottish Ministers straddling the pre/post devolution period, nor the Tory Scottish Ministers who oversaw the creation of HIE and its dreaming up of the funicular project.
This 30 year shitshow has the capacity to embarrass across the political spectrum! That’s unlikely to increase the likelihood of MSPs voting to poke the hornets nest labelled HIE.
Perhaps the worst aspect of all of this: the £27m plus already spent means removing the funicular viaduct will be much more costly and destructive than it would have been if the props and new founds were never installed!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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The crazy thing for me is that even if funicular is fixed it doesn't solve the underlying issues....
The VMP by design limits repeat summer customers. No one can exit top station for 8 months of year. The funicular is of no use to outdoor recreation (bike/hike) and simply can't make summer profit no matter who is in charge.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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@brianatab, oh, don’t spoil the thread by pointing out the SNPs failings. They had nothing to do with it, don’t you know: no control; no responsibility; nothing.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@ster, @brianatab,
Neither of you really know anything about this subject, its frankly embarrassing that you pair are chasing HT round the forum trying to develop arguments.
Just stop, you are making fools of yourselves.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| GreenDay wrote: |
| .. Just stop, you are making fools of yourselves. |
This, please.
Many of us may well be interested in what happens to Scottish ski hills.
I don't think we care about your lovers' tiffs. If you have Scottish politics to discuss, there's a forum for that too.
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| ster wrote: |
| @brianatab, oh, don’t spoil the thread by pointing out the SNPs failings. They had nothing to do with it, don’t you know: no control; no responsibility; nothing. |
When did either of you last ski at Cairngorm?
If ever ...
As I see it:
- The HIE structure (independent board) pre dates devolution and was set up by Tories
- Labour were in power when the funicular was built (2001) contrary to expert advice at the time.
- The SNP erroneously approved HIE funds for the repair
Ultimately a full parliamentary inquiry into last 20 years should now be held. Especially as it seems HIE misled parliament into approving the unsuccessful repair work. Best solution for all would be complete removal of HIE from mountain (for either community ownership or transfer to forestry comission who own land at Glenmore)
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| @brianatab, oh, don’t spoil the thread by pointing out the SNPs failings. They had nothing to do with it, don’t you know: no control; no responsibility; nothing. |
When did either of you last ski at Cairngorm?
If ever ...
As I see it:
- The HIE structure (independent board) pre dates devolution and was set up by Tories
- Labour were in power when the funicular was built (2001) contrary to expert advice at the time.
- The SNP erroneously approved HIE funds for the repair
Ultimately a full parliamentary inquiry into last 20 years should now be held. Especially as it seems HIE misled parliament into approving the unsuccessful repair work. Best solution for all would be complete removal of HIE from mountain (for either community ownership or transfer to forestry comission who own land at Glenmore) |
Whats skiing there got to do with it. Perhaps you shouldn’t comment if you’re not a local?
Anyway all you mention is surely in Scot Gov’s remit to do, why don’t they do something, ANYTHING?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| ster wrote: |
Anyway all you mention is surely in Scot Gov’s remit to do, why don’t they do something, ANYTHING? |
Responsibility remains with HIE who (... thanks to the 2017 vote) retain a board designed to be politically independent of Holyrood. Though ski area only came into their ownership after succession of previous operators failed to meet contractual obligations.
All Holyrood could, and should, do is withdraw any request for future additional funding.
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@Haggis_Trap, oh no, your mummy says we can’t play here anymore. Anyway I’ll leave you you really explain why Scot Gov did nothing about this rogue organisation as you haven’t explained why these sainted ones didn’t do anything since they supinely accepted a 2017 non binding vote, like have another with a whip (as they might do with trans rights etc.). Any thread is fine.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Instead of just sitting on their backsides, wringing their hands claiming they are powerless, the Government could, and should publicly state that the entire board should resign, and pass responsibility (temporarily) back to Holyrood.
The alternative should be the threat of a Police investigation into the awarding of some of the contracts to build it, the signing off of (apparently) dangerous and incomplete work as acceptable, and the misleading of Parliament.
Surely something must have been fraudulent to get the current debacle?
If they decline, all funding should be stopped with immediate effect. Misleading Holyrood should be sufficient for that scenario, and a police investigation.
Starve it of money, let it go bust, then take it back.
Even if it cost £20m more to remove it completely and install an alternative, then that would be a better result for the taxpayers than a never ending repair budget, and absolutely zero passengers.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Too many fellow travellers on the Board?
Most have been appointed since 2017 so surely they are a clean slate, except the Chairman who joined the board in 2014 so was there during the big f*ups but inexplicably has been reappointed in 2023 for second 3 year term of Chairman. Why does the Scot Gov do nothing about this patent failure.
Scot Gov apologists assemble!
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| ster wrote: |
| Why does the Scot Gov do nothing about this patent failure. |
.... Because opposition parties united to prevent Holyrood taking control of HIE in 2017. It was the wrong decision, but that is how democracy works.
| Quote: |
MSPs have voted to demand the Scottish government allow Highlands and Islands Enterprise to retain its own board.
The government wants a new management body to oversee all of Scotland's enterprise and skills agencies.
Opposition members say this would be a "death knell for HIE as we know it", and backed a motion asking the government to "reverse" its decision. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38652032
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You know it makes sense.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ster wrote: |
| Why does the Scot Gov do nothing about this patent failure. |
.... Because opposition parties united to prevent Holyrood taking control of HIE in 2017. It was the wrong decision, but that is how democracy works.
| Quote: |
MSPs have voted to demand the Scottish government allow Highlands and Islands Enterprise to retain its own board.
The government wants a new management body to oversee all of Scotland's enterprise and skills agencies.
Opposition members say this would be a "death knell for HIE as we know it", and backed a motion asking the government to "reverse" its decision. |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38652032 |
That was 2017, is it once in a generation (non binding) vote? Couldn’t the Scot Gov sort another to get rid of this failing organisation?
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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^ so : back in 2017 opposition parties argued Holyrood control of HIE risked "Edinburgh centralisation". Would they vote differently if proposal was repeated? I genuinely have no idea....
Now please stop trashing an otherwise useful thread. Any topic involving Scotland seems to attract tedious ill informed trolls these days.
MSPs vote to 'reverse' Highlands and Islands Enterprise plans
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-38652032
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Poster: A snowHead
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@Haggis_Trap, so Scot Gov really didn’t give a flying F* what HIE did as they did sod all to stop it. Moreover they put Board members in plsce who lied to the government? Nice work!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| ^ so : back in 2017 opposition parties argued Holyrood control of HIE risked "Edinburgh centralisation". Would they vote differently if proposal was repeated? I genuinely have no idea.... |
The answer is patently obvious. For the last few years, the SNP have enjoyed a majority with the support of the greens, so the opinion of the opposition should now be largely irrelevant.
If there was a Labour govt in Scotland, you would be demanding a new vote on the subject.
The track record of the board since 2017 should be enough to convince even the most hostile opposition that change of some sort is required urgently, so why not have another vote? If the opposition vote it down, then the current Govt can lay the blame on their doorstep.
If they don't then you get the changes you, yourself have demanded.
win win for the government.
We'll see how your tune changes after the next election. No doubt if a change is proposed, the SNP (in opposition) will vote against it rather than vote with any other party for the common good.
In the meantime, shall we run a sweep on how much more taxpayers money is wasted on this vanity project?
I'll start the ball rolling at £40 million.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| ster wrote: |
| @Haggis_Trap, so Scot Gov really didn’t give a flying F* what HIE did as they did sod all to stop it. Moreover they put Board members in plsce who lied to the government? Nice work! |
No, Scottish Government tried to abolish HIE. Unfortunately parliament voted against them - that is democracy.
Clearly you agree with me (by calling for another vote) that was the wrong choice? However there is little evidence MSPs would vote differently. See extensive list of quotes below.
Ultimately HIE is an enterprise agency (with independent board) and much wider remit than Cairngorm. The ski area only in their ownership after private operator Natural Retreats failed to meet contractual obligations. Without public support in some form it would have gone bankrupt.
| Quote: |
| Mr Cameron's Conservative colleague Edward Mountain summed up his party's argument, saying: "HIE is not broken. It works. Stop trying to break it." |
| Quote: |
| Labour's Rhoda Grant, backing the Tory motion, described the government plans as a "power grab", saying their "only aim is centralisation". This was echoed by Mr McArthur, who said the SNP had "an unhealthy appetite for controlling every aspect of what goes on in this country" |
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| Quote: |
| Lib Dem MSP Liam McArthur said ministers had been "arrogant and tone-deaf" over the plans, which he called an "ill-judged and dangerous" bid to "centralise the life out of" the region. |
| Quote: |
| SNP MP Ian Blackford has argued that the local body should be allowed to retain its decision-making powers. He said that while he "fully endorsed" the establishment of a central board, HIE should have its own "management or advisory board" to "reflect the priorities" of the Highlands and islands area. |
Now, please refrain from ruining rest of topic. Threads related to Scotland are not carte blanche for tedious trolls. I suspect neither Brian or Ster have ever skied at Cairngorm? Both evidently clueless on the history of funicular.
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Thu 8-08-24 10:48; edited 1 time in total
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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^^^^^^^^^^^that's the second time today & it's still early I have seen a SNP'er telling non scots they don't know what they are talking about as they are not Scottish.
Is this a new trend?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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@Haggis_Trap, thanks for confirming that Scot Gov did absolutely nothing here, even when they thought HIE a shambles, but allow spending of huge amount of public money on one ski area which was wasted when it could have supported all the ski areas to the overall benefit of the Highlands.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
^^^^^^^^^^^that's the second time today & it's still early I have seen a SNP'er telling non scots they don't know what they are talking about as they are not Scottish.
Is this a new trend? |
Its nothing to do with nationality, more subject knowledge.
This is a thread that I have posted on rarely - as there are posters (some English !) whose knowledge I actually value and who know far more detail about the subject than I.
Sadly, a couple of recent posters have turned up who are so poorly informed about this subject it is embarrassing.
If I were HT I would ignore them, but its difficult when they chase him round the forum like this.
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
^^^^^^^^^^^that's the second time today & it's still early I have seen a SNP'er telling non scots they don't know what they are talking about as they are not Scottish.
Is this a new trend? |
Just feck off from this thread you absolute roaster.
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| Jonny996 wrote: |
^^^^^^^^^^^that's the second time today & it's still early I have seen a SNP'er telling non scots they don't know what they are talking about as they are not Scottish.
Is this a new trend? |
No : I suggested that people clearly ignorant of the funicular history (... and have never skied on Cairngorm?) should refrain from posting.
There are plenty other threads for SNP-bad rants.
Kindly don't pollute this one.
Last edited by After all it is free  on Thu 8-08-24 10:48; edited 1 time in total
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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This is about the “current issues and future” of cairngorm.
Can you all take your hate of the Scottish government back to the other thread.
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| Haggis_Trap wrote: |
| Jonny996 wrote: |
^^^^^^^^^^^that's the second time today & it's still early I have seen a SNP'er telling non scots they don't know what they are talking about as they are not Scottish.
Is this a new trend? |
No : I suggested that people are clearly ignorant of the funicular history (... and have never skied on Cairngorm?) should refrain from posting.
There are plenty other threads for SNP-bad rants.
Kindly don't pollute this one. |
Well I have skied Caringorm on numerous occasions in the past,( including overnight coach journeys for a weekend there), although not in recent years*, so that would "qualify me" to comment here.
*Purely economics. It costs 3x tank of fuel for a week, which is more than the air fair to the alps. I can get half board for less than the price of a b&b in Aviemore, without the daily 20 mile commute to the slopes, and can almost guarantee more skiing time, and less days off due to high winds. A shame, but those are the facts.
I have never used the funicular, but then neither have any other posters here, despite the fact that they live much closer.
I admit I know nothing of the history, save what I have read here. That is clearly enough to demonstrate what a complete clusterf*ck it is.
You have all agreed that there are much better alternative ways of spending the money to allow skiing, and other yearlong access on that mountain
You are the ones who are most vocal about the situation, the clear waste of Public money and resultant damage to the Scottish ski industry, yet you completely resist any criticism of those holding the purse strings, who have sanctioned this waste, and look likely to continue to do so whilstever they are in power.
I wasn't complaining about the SNP per se. I was simply stating that the "Scottish Government" who have financed this fiasco ought to do more to rectify the situation.
If it was any other govt but the SNP, you would all be jumping up and down demanding action.
If it was controlled from Westminster, you would do exactly the same.
There is absolutely no excuse that the vote was taken 7 years ago stops there being another one. (see your comments on the "other thread, which demanded another vote on a much shorter timescale ).
Many of those who voted then are no longer MSP's, so comments about no change of mind are just a cop out. The new members should be allowed their opinion the subject, and the chance to reflect the current views of their electorate.
There is a new administration. There will be another one in 2 years.
Any future Administration can take a vote and reverse a decision by the previous one. This Administration has done that on other topics. As you point out, that is democracy.
It may well be that the HIE has a much broader remit than Cairngorm, and that they run other projects more efficiently. However, they would be able to do so much more if they didn't keep wasting Public money on this vanity project.
At the very least, the Scottish Government should remove this project from the control of the HIE and appoint an independent review with the remit to look at value for money and benefit to the communities and tourism over the long term.
If that means it's run by a Government department for the next 10 years, then so be it.
Far better that any future monies are spent wisely than a never ending black hole.
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