 Poster: A snowHead
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Agreed, the number of weeks would vary, but that is a typical progression. I believe that if you concentrate on your technique, and you want to improve, then you will. The key is to "struggle"!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I would modify it-
6 weeks, believe that you find any run in the resort easy.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
Doesn't it work like this for most people?
Week 1. Ski school.
Week 2. Struggle on blues.
Week 3. Manage blues, struggle on reds.
Week 4. Blues are easy, reds managable, struggle on blacks.
Week 5. Reds easy, blacks managable.
Week 6. All runs easy unless too icy/bumpy. |
In people's imaginations, maybe. It takes no account of the very important imo aspect of consolidating what you've learned
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| ajhainey wrote: |
Unlike beerstein I like to actually ski WITH my friends and refuse to leave anyone alone (especially a nervous beginner) so do tend to find this hapenning rather more often then might be considered ideal.
aj xx |
Shouldn't nervous beginners go with 'Ski School'. Chances are they won't help your skiing and you probably won't help theirs. Best drink with all the mates and just ski with those of same ability. I always ski with my brother as we learnt together in our early teens, and tend to be a bit competitive with each other. If either seems to have improved and looks better than the other then the other tends to push themselves a bit and switch things around. This way we improve on almost every trip. Oh, and neither ever ever admits to being intimidated by a slope. Not of course that I ever have been 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| Kramer wrote: |
I would modify it-
6 weeks, believe that you find any run in the resort easy. |
Perhaps if you go to the same resort for all 6 weeks!
Actually, what is really missing is taking more instruction.
If someone thinks that they no longer need assistance after 1 week of lessons, they are deluded.
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Kramer, what's the difference between finding any run easy and "believing" you find any run easy?
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Wear The Fox Hat, 6 weeks is enough to reach the level of "competent novice". If someone is happy at that level then how are they deluded? Becoming a better skiing will take many more weeks and may involve having more lessons.
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A friend was all agression and not so good with technique. He improved by buying some grown up skis, 210cm long, that he had to learn to drive properly or they would not turn at all well. That was a few years ago. He is now a very good skier, albeit just a few weeks per year on holidays.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
If someone thinks that they no longer need assistance after 1 week of lessons, they are deluded.
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All these demands for further instruction presuppose that people want to be good at skiing. Many skiers are at least as interested in having a good time with their mates and enjoying a few beers. I have friends who say they ski principally for the adrenalin rush (I don't ski with them!); if they were to get too good at the sport, they'd have to take ever increasing risks just satisfy their cravings.
Whose to say that these people have a lesser outlook on life than those of us who want to improve? You could even argue that they are the balanced ones and the obsessive skiers need to get a life.
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| Quote: |
If someone thinks that they no longer need assistance after 1 week of lessons, they are deluded.
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All these demands for further instruction presuppose that people want to be good at skiing. Many skiers are at least as interested in having a good time with their mates and enjoying a few beers. I have friends who say they ski principally for the adrenalin rush (I don't ski with them!); if they were to get too good at the sport, they'd have to take ever increasing risks just satisfy their cravings.
Whose to say that these people have a lesser outlook on life than those of us who want to improve? You could even argue that they are the balanced ones and the obsessive skiers need to get a life. |
Jonny, I totally agree with you, but I was basing that response on the idea that in 6 weeks you'd be skiing blacks with ease.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| xyzpaul wrote: |
| Wear The Fox Hat, 6 weeks is enough to reach the level of "competent novice". If someone is happy at that level then how are they deluded? Becoming a better skiing will take many more weeks and may involve having more lessons. |
Totally!
But a competent novice is different to someone who skis blacks easily.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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I think that some of us who learnt the hard way on long straight skis fail to understand how quickly a fit, enthusiastic skier can learn with modern equipment. I think that it's actually a bit pessimistic to think that you have to wait 6 weeks to enjoy blacks.
I've been astonished to see how quickly my kids have learnt to ski with speed, control and - am I allowed to say this? - style. (I'm not boasting about my own childrens' ability here, as most children seem to learn at a similar rate).
After just 4 weeks on skis, my 10 year old son is comfortable on double black diamond runs - his last instructor's view was that he could safely ski any route on the mountain. He blasts down moguls with controlled, linked turns, and powder and ice hold no concern for him. And he seems to be typical of his peer group.
Surely a fit 18 year old wouldn't learn any more slowly?
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You know it makes sense.
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Agree with the above. I was lucky to start as a kid and I was doing it all quickly. I was self taught too (or rather my Dad said to my brothers and I - this is a snow plough stop and a snow plough turn, now get out on the mountain and don't come back !!!). Anyway I had my first lesson twenty years later, because I heard so much 'you need instruction to really improve stuff'. My private lesson went like this: 'ski through this slalom for me to see what you're like'....'so! . you can ski...what are you doing here with me !'. I then told him this was my first lesson and I wanted all the latest tips....he said 'good joke..it is impossible for you to have learned to ski like that without lessons, let's just have some fun in the crud'.
Not sure why I'm telling this., Oh yes I felt liking blowing my own trumpet....no, actually it was an earlier comment about 'anyone thinking they don't need instruction after 1 lesson is deluded'........some people learn better by themselves, using the power of observation, some people can read technique in a book and translate it to reality and some need hands on guidance. We all learn differently. Watch the skiers you like the style of and mimmick...this really will work for some! Promise!
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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| Jonny Jones wrote: |
| I think that it's actually a bit pessimistic to think that you have to wait 6 weeks to enjoy blacks....... |
Really? Depends on the contrast between "enjoyment" and "proficiency" I'd have thought. Can you really enjoy a run if you can only just get down it.
In my view just surviving a run of any nature/colour, mainly vertically, whilst wearing ski gear, doesn't mean you can ski it.
I'm not being selective in this either, as I apply it to myself when asked how good a skiier I am. I know I'm not that good.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Comparing the skiing ability of an adult with a child can be misleding.
A child has a much lower centre of gravity and hence easier to stabilize.
The much shorter skis make the child impossible to go very fast.
The much reduced body weight also robs the child's ability to gain speed quickly to become out of control.
A child can do A-plough down a black slope but in same case of an adult the act is either impossible or suicidal. A child can ski straight down a black slope and still would not think the speed is fast enough for a thrill, let alone a threat.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| eng_ch wrote: |
Just playing devil's advocate here but why not? If someone is happy spending their life pottering around on greens and blues and has no ambition whatsoever to go any steeper, and they have achieved a level of proficiency that is commensurate with their ambitions, why do they need to keep taking lessons? Same goes for any activity. We all set a level we want to achieve and once we have achieved it, we're happy - and isn't that the ultimate goal of anything we do on an amateur basis? |
I think life's too short  We should do everything with passion and committment. I have a wide definition of ambition or aspiration though, even going somewhere different is enough to me, a life locked in the terror of encoutering something that challenges isn't worth a lot.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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TBH I've been reading this thread and get the feeling there are some ski snobs on here.
It's not my wish to offend anyone but I think eng_ch got it right in his last post.
A lot of people ski recreationally for enjoyment and will sit at the level that gives them enjoyment.
Then there are others who gain their enjoyment from always pushing themselves either with conditions/speed or by technique.
I don’t really think its fair for others to say "that’s wrong because .....”
BTW I'm not talking safety here, that should always be pointed out
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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marc gledhill,
At my age I would be happy to ski down any black slope even if it is just a matter of survival to others.
The main factor is one uses his/her knowledge and experience (assuming having no skill) to get down, not causing a danger to oneself or any other, no falling or out of control but just doing is slowly and carefully at each turn.
Whether I have skill or not doesn't bother me at all as long as I am in full controll of the situation at all time.
Going down in higher speed requires also strong legs in additional to skill.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| beeryletcher wrote: |
| We all learn differently. |
I agree. I certainly learn better where I can read/watch little bits at a time and analyse it before moving on ... an hour of brain dump moving rapidly from one thing to another geenrally leaes me with cerebral indigestion!
However, the self-confessed weakness of this approach is the lack of feedback from others. I always know what I am trying/intend to do and why ... but do not always know how right I am getting it without others 'external' input.
I think maybe the emphasis, assuming one wants to be proficient at the technical aspect of skiing and isn't happy just to be competant enough to poodle around, is on the desire to improve and learn and the steps taken to do so - and not necessarily on the 'lesson'!
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| Wear The Fox Hat wrote: |
| But how many people go on ski trips for achievements, and how many go to have fun - there is a major difference. ... |
For you maybe...but for me the most fun I get is when I pull something off I've not managed before, or with better style (if I'm still allowed to use than word in the context of "modern skiing") than previously.
I have to say I find the incredible conservatism of this and the "Too steep to groom" threads (and implication that that's the "right" way to approach skiing) quite depressing. I personally can't think of anything more tedious than skiing so far within you comfort zone that I have only 1% risk of getting it wrong. I go for a bit of oscillation either side of the limit of my abilities - and the existing grading system worked pretty fine for that - if I found a red particularly hard then I just fell over a bit more, no problem. If a pitch was clearly way beyond me, then I just side-slipped through that. That progression of xyzpaul was about it for me, although I'd test myself out on a few blacks a bit earlier than that - I'd make a pretty bad fist of it, but I'd get down, and then do it better next time. And (in response to marc gledhill) why should I not "enjoy" a slope I'm struggling with? On the contrary I get immense enjoyment out of the challenge - getting a bit more of it right each time brings a great sense of achievement, and seeing others do it properly shows how far you still have to go.
Sure, I guess I have to admit I'm an "adrenaline junkie", this wouldn't suit everyone, and will be complete anathema to the many "risk averse" posters here. For those, then fine, I have absolutely nothing against you getting great enjoyment tootling around on cruisy blues, it's just that's not for me. I still fall down frequently - I've had I think only one of my 150-ish days on snow where I've not, but (to stem the inevitable derision this will no doubt provoke):
1) I can only assume that falling more gives you practice/training at how to fall safely, as I've never needed medical treatment on/near the slopes, and I've had some pretty spectacular falls;
2) the only time I've actually hurt anyone was in my first week on snow, going fairly slowly, but I had no idea how to control my speed in a rutted track (maybe no excuse by the rest of the group was aware of by lack of experience), and ran into the back of another much more experienced member of the group who could stop;
3) I have had a few collisions, but pretty much all 50/50 cases (i.e. when opposed S carves met), or a few stumbles into other group members at very low speed;
4) the only injuries I've had causing any degree of incapacity to me have been in falls on "simple" blues
5) my bruise or bit of a scratch is not the end of the world...stuff happens.
However, I have now got to the level where the potential consequences of a bad fall are rather more difficult to cope with, and developing a more conservative approach to those situations clearly needs to be part of the current development plan!
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GrahamN, I accept where you are coming from, but I don't go on a ski trip with a list of things I must achieve before I can call it a successful trip, nor do I come away disappointed if I don't reach those goals.
Do you go on a summer holiday, and only consider it worth while if you have a better tan than last year?
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Quote: |
Just playing devil's advocate here but why not? If someone is happy spending their life pottering around on greens and blues and has no ambition whatsoever to go any steeper, and they have achieved a level of proficiency that is commensurate with their ambitions, why do they need to keep taking lessons?
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And why should you necessarily need lessons to ski steeper. I have not taken lessons since two evenings on Brassingbourne Barracks dry slope before my first ever sking trip and can now ski most (all?) black runs adequetely. When I find something I want to do that I can't after a bit of practice then I'm perfectly willing to take lessons. For example I've been telemarking for a year or so now (on fairly light weight kit) and can't telemark down stuff I can easily ski with a fixed heel. I'm getting better, I can now parallel most runs on my freehill kit that I can do on fixedheel gear though I'd probably draw the line at steep mogulled runs. What I can't do (yet) is telemark turns on steeper runs - particularly linked teleturns and I fall over rather too regularly when teleing. I've already had one coaching sesion with a telemark coach in the Nordic club I'm a member of and I'll do some more if my teleing doesn't improve at a speed I'm happy with.
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GrahamN, I'm with you on this. I like to push myself and am constantly working on skiing with more control and speed (not dangerously, before the holier-than-thou brigade jumps in). I know that some people are timid and don't like the fear, each to their own 
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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I think perhaps we'll have to agree to differ folks - there is a camp that goes on holiday to relax, and a camp that goes on holiday to achieve. As long as I never have to go on holiday with ise, GrahamN, PG etc I'm sure I'll be just fine pottering round on the blues enjoying the views aj xx
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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GrahamN, in my own defence. I was only refering to the Jonny Jones quote, and even then not putting my point across very well. I was mixing it in with the "I can do blacks on my second day" sentiments too.
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You know it makes sense.
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Dave Horsley, Get some weight on the back foot ! 
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| ise wrote: |
| I think life's too short We should do everything with passion and committment. I have a wide definition of ambition or aspiration though, even going somewhere different is enough to me, a life locked in the terror of encoutering something that challenges isn't worth a lot. |
Think of a running analogy. Some people run for the sake of fitness only or to enjoy getting exercise out in the open - not everybody keeps a log and tries to make sure that each time they do a route they do it faster etc.?
I believe it is the same with skiing ... not everybody is concerned with their technical proficiency or performance - some folks just enjoy doing it without much fuss. Grading is important to these folks who don't want to find themselves overly 'challenged' (or even scared) - the only risk of poor grading to yourself is boredom when you cannot find something to challenge yourself!
Edit - Since starting to type this, getting distracted and pressing post, I think ajhainey summed it up very well with his summary of the different camps with equally valid opinions.
Last edited by Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name: on Wed 29-03-06 16:30; edited 1 time in total
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Poster: A snowHead
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Oh, and to put it in context, I did my first red in my first week of skiing, and my first black on my third week (but I did take lessons each week, these runs were done outside lessons)
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat, no I don't set specific goals, but do look for some improvement in some area on the previous week's standard - and only been disappointed probably one or two trips so far (which showed up that I was letting myself down by being way less fit than the previous year). I guess this is, as someone said earlier, the difference between a "holiday skier" and "sport skier" mentality (although of course I'm in reality, like the vast majority of others here, still only a "holiday skier"). Summer holidays - now my knees seem to have started working again, I can now go for something a bit more taxing too, last year was hiking across Corsica. This year I have not enough leave left for a real holiday, so maybe just a short break hiking in Switzerland.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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An interesting debate and it's quite clear that people want different things out of a skiing holiday and out of their skiing. Order of priority (for me):
Have fun
Improve my technique
Build confidence
Don't harm anyone
Have more fun. And so the cycle goes.
You can do all the above or some of the above. Yes if you just want to bimble about on the easy bits happy in yourself, by all means but you still got to learn how to bimble without hurting yourself and others. OTOH if you want to go steeper, deeper, faster, really pushing yourself to the limit then you can do that but you've got to have respect for those that don't and you must never intimidate less experienced/confident skiers and "bimblers". The latter, I find, is the worst aspect in the arguments of the "get off if you can't do it" types. I'm not suggesting that anyone posting here would deliberately intimidate others on the slopes but I bet that some have gone flying down even a moderately busy blue (I'm sure I have) with scant regard for e.g. first and second weekers.
I do think that you need to take lessons and it is with much chagrin that I admit to only having had 2weeks of lessons minimum 10 years ago (puts on tin hat, flack jacket and awaits abuse) and will be putting this right next season. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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ski,
I'm on top of that one - that was one of my early faults and think I've mainly cured it. I've got lots of others though .
Some are:
Particularly when turning right I don't stay down in the telemark long enough and often come back into a parallel half way through the turn (though Ive just seen in Paul Parkers book that that is a legit technique useful in some snow conditions). I sometimes push out the front foot too stiffly not keeping my knee over the toe.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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Each year a group of mates and I take a lads only trip (this year St Anton). The wife of one of my mates made a comment to him about 'lucky ba*st*rd, going on an extra week's holiday'. He was shocked and said 'HOLIDAY !! no it's a MISSION !!'. Quite right he is, and if it's not then you're simply doing it wrong
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Seems a shame in some ways - in these days of instant gratification, do we even want every tiny detail of the mountain environment tailored to all possible needs? Slope gradients indicated to the nearest degree, rainbow-hued piste maps.... where does it all end?
Sometimes seems a case of blaming anyone/anything but oneself if things don't work out according to plan.
If I come a cropper on the mountain somewhere, I just think I'm a bloody idiot. It has never occurred to me - not once - that it's the resort's fault for not signposting every patch of ice, every irregularly shaped mogul. Every bump alongside the piste. Every patch of windblown snow encroaching on the piste. Every unexpected steep section in a run.
The pistes ARE graded. Are you willing to pay 20%, 30%, 50% more for your lift tickets? because if we are to have our ski resorts wrapped in cotton wool to prepare for every eventuality, multiple-layered piste gradings with all the extra upkeep that would entail, the extra personnel etc, prices would skyrocket.
The onus of responsibility is on the participant in a sport which is inherently dangerous to take every precaution, to use common sense, to prepare adequately (fitness, training etc). We are provided with beginners' slopes, greens, blues, reds and blacks. Piste maps telling us where they are. Information bureaux, resort online forums, where we can ask for advice. SnowHeads!
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If the slopes were rid of all but the "achievement orientated" skiers then they might be a lot quieter but also a lot less laid back. Take for example the queue for first lifts on a powder day - a fairly testosterone charged environment where one slip can easily see you trampled. Now I find it great fun to be in that queue as excitement builds but would you want that atmosphere around all day every day. I think its great that so many people can enjoy skiing & that's it one of the few multi-generational family holidays you can have.
For the most part "fun" skiers don't bother me on the slopes unless they're doing something truly dumb like throwing skis down a mogul field so they can walk down which I did see last trip or obstructing a narrow cattrack. I hope I myself am in the fun category most of the time as its really about the buzz I get from a good turn. I will however admit to frustration with a casual attitude when e.g. people won't fill up chairs when there is obviously a large queue behind them.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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PG.
I agree.
Let's hope NANNY BLAIR never gets to run the ALPs. 
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| Quote: |
Seems a shame in some ways - in these days of instant gratification, do we even want every tiny detail of the mountain environment tailored to all possible needs? Slope gradients indicated to the nearest degree, rainbow-hued piste maps.... where does it all end
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It ended with a change of underwear almost required on a very nasty black in La Thuile. I would have tipped€10 to a freindly local if he had whispered " Look Chubby, I think the 4 kids you have with you may be okay, but you and your Mrs may be in for an ability reality injection just round the first bend". My point is that it was so very different to the other blacks we had tried in resort.
Hey we didn't fall, and the kids did wait for us, but it looks like something that does interest the less profficient skier out there.
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FAQ
, so why not try sliding the old lead back ? 
