there was a time limited process in France that enabled people to get the carte pro without the ET/EMS.
TTT, any idea when that expired? Is it the case that anyone with a grandfathered BASI L4/ISTD (without an ET) who did not apply to the French authorities before that time cannot now get a Carte Pro in France?
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
laundryman, it was a long time ago and that is my understanding.
On the proportionate point that is indeed so. However firstly there is a EU derogation which specifically allows the ET. I know it has been argued that the regulation to which the derogation applied has changed but these are essentially updates to the same regulation and the wording to which the derogation applied has not changed. Even SB has confirmed that the ET and EMS are required to work independently. If you are employed then tests and qualifications are allowed provided they are not discrimatory. My firm requires local professional qualifications and local language fluency. All allowed under EU employment law.
Secondly there are lots of people who have passed and continue to pass the ET from different nations and therefore difficult to argue it is disproportionate. The qualifications in lots of professions are beyond amateurs. That does not make them illegal.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
TTT, it just seems odd that (according to your understanding of a French 'grandfather' process) foreigners with exactly the same qualifications, from the same era, can or cannot practise in France according to whether or not they made an application before an arbitrary date.
I will never ever use ESF simply because in my considerable experience they are lazy work-shy and arrogant. Doing the best for their clients is well down on their priorities.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
World cup winner Zidane is furious. The Spaniards have accused him of working as a trainer in Spain without the right certificates: "I've been trying to pass my certificate in France, what interests me is staying in the French system, that's where I learned to play." insists the French former no 10.
They don't like it up 'em as Corporal Jones would say.
@laundryman, many processes in life are time limited but I tend to agree with your point. However, it is very odd that SB did not do the prior test, grandfather or the ET unlike everyone else so it is ultimately his decision and responsibility. For some reason he likes to make life difficult for himself and others, including his customer and I have reason to believe that it is about to become tougher for him because he has alienated so many people.
The derogation is clear. Any European judge is going to look to the existing rules and what experts including BASI have agreed on which is the ET. This is a peculiarly British debate. Other countries think you should be better than your average punter to be a ski instructor and they know that standard is no where near a racer. If SB wishes to be a ski instructor then he would be advised to follow local and EU rules otherwise he runs the risk of losing his licence and having no place to work.
No one is forced to use the ESF. There are other options in France unlike other countries.
Xenophobia and the tendency of people to see the world only through their own eyes and agendas are instinctive human behaviour but they are not man's finest qualities or compelling arguments.
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TTT wrote:
On the proportionate point that is indeed so. However firstly there is a EU derogation which specifically allows the ET. I know it has been argued that the regulation to which the derogation applied has changed but these are essentially updates to the same regulation and the wording to which the derogation applied has not changed.
The derogation might be a reason for the ECJ to uphold French law (if the question ever gets that far). But there other reasons to believe it might not, notably that L3 is sufficient to teach in most of the world.
Quote:
Even SB has confirmed that the ET and EMS are required to work independently. If you are employed then tests and qualifications are allowed provided they are not discrimatory.
There's good reasons to regard the Eurotest as discriminatory as to sex and age as well as national origin.
Quote:
My firm requires local professional qualifications and local language fluency. All allowed under EU employment law.
What a firm may require when hiring and what a national regulation may require by law are two different things entirely.
Quote:
Secondly there are lots of people who have passed and continue to pass the ET from different nations and therefore difficult to argue it is disproportionate. The qualifications in lots of professions are beyond amateurs. That does not make them illegal.
That's entirely irrelevant. Nobody says you cannot have a higher L4 qualification that requires the Eurotest and that instructors may seek to qualify to differentiate themselves in the marketplace. The question is whether L4 can be justified as a requirement to teach at all in France outside the stagiare system.
After all it is free
After all it is free
Firstly it is not the rest of the world. It is Europe and what has been agreed in Europe. It is not the Std required to instruct. It is the Std to operate independently.
There is differential for Sex and lots of qualifications including my own make no age allowance. It's been reviewed by BASIs lawyers and found to be legal. All nations are allowed to do it so there is no race descrimation.
I think you will find that firms are required to comply with national law so points are relevant.
The ET is not required to work in France, only the TT. Yes you are required to be a good skier to work in France but not an amazing one. I have regulations in my UK profession. The French in theirs.
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@TTT,
Quote:
However, it is very odd that SB did not do the prior test, grandfather or the ET unlike everyone else
I think you are making an assumption that SB did not follow a grandfather procedure, unless you have some proper evidence. Other explanations are possible, such as a breakdown in the process at the other end or an undocumented blackballing.
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Ski the Net with snowHeads
This just seems to be going in circles. Clearly TTT knows people who are not supportive of SB or are closer to some of the murky hidden politics of why his stamp wasn't renewed by BASI. What he personally chooses to do after having a longstanding business done over in the French courts is up to him. If that means aligning with a political party for assistance then do be it, it's not as if his oen professional organisation is falling over itself to help. He might be a grade A asshole but it doesn't mean there are aspects of his case where the French implementation of EU law is just plain wrong. ET is a separate debate and is largely irrelevant to the matter if the right to train junior instructors.
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I think there are 3 separate questions that can be addressed independently
1) Is the French position that only ski schools with 10 French qualified ISTDs can operate as training schools compatible with EU law?
2) Is the basis on which the ET derogation was obtained (essential safety) a valid one?
3) Did SB at one time have his Carte Pro and what happened to withdraw it/ not renew it if he did?
I think one could say No to q1 while remaining wholly agnostic or positive on q2.
As for q3 seems fairly pertinent in deciding where oyr sympathies should lie. (of course more than possible that Sbs didn't have 10 ISTDs at all times as well).
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
@Dave of the Marmottes, +1 But SBS case is relevant to this thread as ESF Megeve were involved with his prosecution and now are benefiting directly from having him removed from Megeve.
The issues are complex and hard to digest but what most people fail to understand clearly is that there are two key aims of the EC working directives. The right to move and establish ones self in a member state was won after Phil Smith and others challenged the French years ago. They were arrested, thrown in jail and threatened a lawsuit that forced the original compromise that top certs from countries that joined the Eurotest group are allowed to establish in each others countries if they hold the ISTD qualification. France and Italy are the only two countries that have a single tier of instructor with those below considered trainees. The rest of the EU have multi levels of instructors and crucially the original 2000 agreement was that ISIA stamp holders (now BASI L3) were not required to take any entrance exams (TT) and allowed to work as stagiaires while training through their own system (BASI, Dutch etc). The current directive clearly states that those with qualifications one level below what is required for establishment are allowed to work on a temporary basis.
What Simon Butler is challenging is the right for lower level instructors to work. I don't agree with the way he has gone about many things but the central premise that only schools with French system trained instructors can have trainees within their schools is fundamentally wrong in the context of freedom of movement in the EU.
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So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
Quote:
benefiting directly from having him removed from Megeve.
are they? I thought he was still going - certainly the website suggests so. Which is good. Still plenty of choice of ski schools in Megeve, in addition to ESF (though lessons with SB are only for their chalet guests, I believe). So, a great deal of shouting and arguing (which has probably made a few lawyers richer) but it seems that nothing much has actually changed on the ground yet?
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@pam w, Simon has shut his larger chalet in Megève, so his capacity there is reduced to about a third that of the last dozen years or so. I would be astonished if any clients of his would instead find their own accommodation and sign up for a course of five lessons with the ESF in Megève.
Last edited by You know it makes sense. on Mon 27-10-14 11:36; edited 1 time in total
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
@pam w, I thought he had moved his operation from Megeve to Switzerland. If not I stand corrected...
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
@skimottaret, yes, he's set up in Crans Montana, with a smaller operation remaining in Megève based around a small number of Carte Pro holders.
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
3) Did SB at one time have his Carte Pro and what happened to withdraw it/ not renew it if he did?
He's never held a Carte Pro. He does hold the ISTD and has had an MoU (a rubber stamp), which facilitates a Carte Pro for others, but that has been withdrawn by BASI. He has applied for Carte Pro with and without the MoU, but the authorities have not responded to his applications in the statutory way, preferring to arrest him in front of clients instead.
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Dave of the Marmottes wrote:
I think there are 3 separate questions that can be addressed independently
1) Is the French position that only ski schools with 10 French qualified ISTDs can operate as training schools compatible with EU law?
Agree : There is a good argument that British ski school should perhaps be able to employ lower level trainees.
however...
1) The French have another level above ISTD (roughly equivalent to BASI trainer) required to operate a training school.
2) If British ski schools were able to employ trainees going through the BASI system then the entire French system would be in turmoil (i.e French locals might as well do the easier BASI system while living in France ?)
3) Brits can join the ESF and teach in France with a BASI L2 and a test technique (and then work through the BASI system)
Quote:
2) Is the basis on which the ET derogation was obtained (essential safety) a valid one?
Agree - the ET is not about safety.
It is clearly about restricting total numbers of instructors able to work by setting the technical bar high.
However until a court rules otherwise it is not against EU law.
One of the reasons Brits struggle with the ET is because they don't race much.
In France / Italy there are literally thousands of club level racers at ET standard.
Quote:
3) Did SB at one time have his Carte Pro and what happened to withdraw it/ not renew it if he did?
Even with a carte-pro Simon Butler wouldn't have been legally allowed to employ lower level instructors ?
It seems very clear, as mentioned above in detail, that SB did not accept (or was granted?) his grandfather rights for ET exemption in 2005 ?
Personally I don't think the French are being as unreasonable as some would like to make out
They are just protecting their own system.
Ironically it is this very system that allows ski instructors to make a professional career - and France a desirable place to work as a ski instructor.
Some of the anti-french xenophobia posted here is incredible - step back and look at both sides of the argument
Last edited by Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see? on Mon 27-10-14 14:07; edited 2 times in total
He has applied for Carte Pro with and without the MoU, but the authorities have not responded to his applications in the statutory way, preferring to arrest him in front of clients instead.
"It's in the post" wouldn't work in any country I can name. God knows what 'the statutory way' might be in France though, even a casual chat on any subject reveals that the same demand is never treated the same way twice.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
@albinomountainbadger, the way of 2005/36/EC. Reasons are required for refusals, within specified times.
Re grandfathering it was posted by some of BASI on FB who I know was there at the time and I have been told this personally but someone in BASI who would definitely know. Of course it is possible they are lying but no one else had a problem which suggests the problem was down to SB.
My primary source is EU law. People may not agree with EU law. Nothing murky - the reasons are clear why SB has not got a carte pro. People may may wish to make baseless accusations why SB is the one and only person has a problem but they are only ignoring EU law because the facts don't fit with their biases.
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
@TTT, if you don't know the facts, you don't know how the law applies to them. Your primary source for facts is what mates have told you or written on FaceBook. Nothing wrong with that, but your claim to an unbiased view from Olympian heights is wearing a little thin.
After all it is free
After all it is free
So you are saying it's down to him not applying?
Unlike laundryman 's differrent impression from SB himself. And there's no murk here?
Where in EU law does it state that France's rules on training schools are fine?
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@laundryman, @Dave of the Marmottes, I know neither the facts nor the law, so I will confine myself to a grin.
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Ski the Net with snowHeads
Pedantica wrote:
@laundryman, @Dave of the Marmottes, I know neither the facts nor the law, so I will confine myself to a gin.
FIFY
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
laundryman wrote:
@albinomountainbadger, the way of 2005/36/EC. Reasons are required for refusals, within specified times.
I'll try that one on the mayor's staff next time!
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
albinomountainbadger, parce que ca ne me va....
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much
People can deny all they like. It does not change what EU law actually states and what the judge and lawyers think. He was convicted. The other views I have heard are not from mates but directly from people involved. I'm trying to give a steer here. He would be well advised to get a view from an independent employment lawyer as to his best course of action. He does not have his carte pro or MoU which was given in error is a fact. SB has put himself and others in a difficult position and from what I've been told and as will become apparent it is not going to get easier if he maintains his current stance. True friends advise on what is in the other person's best interest and not based on their own views and agendas. otherwise the only people who will benefit are lawyers and not SB.
The relevant law does not cover training schools. However the UK has exactly the same regulations in other professions so if France are acting illegally in this matter which I don't believe then so is the UK.
You know it makes sense.
You know it makes sense.
@TTT, can you explain what the error in giving the MoU was?
What current stance of SB are you talking about?
Are these directly involved people, on whom you rely, without bias?
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
No prior test, french grandfather rights or ET.
His adverbial stance to those in a position to help him. No decent lawyer would advise a court route.
I'm primarily relying on EU law. Those directly involved are relying on independent legal advice.
Poster: A snowHead
Poster: A snowHead
TTT wrote:
His adverbial stance to those in a position to help him.
Yes, he obviously adopted the wrong grammatical approach, he'd have done better trying to be in conjunction with the French...
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
@TTT, what has French grandfather rights (a concept I've heard from no-one apart from you, and about which you've been vague) got to do with a BASI attestation that a person has a British qualification?
Who is going to do what to SB on the grounds of being adversarial (otherwise known as defending what he sees as his rights) to those in a position to help (who presumably haven't helped, despite being in a position to do so)?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
@TTT, As you're holding yourself as an expert on EU law and someone who knows certain facts could you possibly state the facts unambiguously and without supposition, then separately answer some of the recent questions posed? As the rest of us are tainted by bias and inability to see the picture from all sides.
Its got to do with being qualified to work in the EU.
I appreciate you want to dig more and I have been cryptic but I really am trying to be helpful to all concerned but I'm already pushing the boundaries. If someone is a friend of SB I would counsel independent legal advice and diplomacy as being in the best interests of all concerned.
Back to the OP -
Personally, I still want to be able to ski with MW and Ski Olympic hosts and with SCGB leaders - none of whom teach - all of whom save me hours gazing at maps as I am as good as dyslexic when it comes to relating maps to the terrain that I'm on.
So I may just call in on the ESF stand ......
( Off to Italy & Austria this season anyway.)
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...
FAQ
Poster: A snowHead
