 Poster: A snowHead
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| jafa wrote: |
As Kitzbuhel has very few scanners on there turnstiles, ie you don't even have to show your passes on loads of them, I think they cant be photographing the guests as they go through. And long may it continue, its technology for techs sake really. |
I wouldn't say it is "loads". Although I've only skied a couple of days at Kitzbuhel (both with espri), there were only a couple of lifts I visited that didn't use the usual scanning technology - and those were on the far side of the big 3S lift.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| speed098 wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
<snip>
I couldn't be bothered to google any more - I need my lunch - but I suspect such information is not as hard to find as some people have claimed. |
yes quite clear but it has flaws they can not state that purchase implies full knowledge, as it does not, and even full knowledge does not make unfair T&C enforceable. You may have purchased as part of a package from a tour operator for instance.
"All FRAUD ! will be sanctioned and MAY ! result in the ski pass being cancelled "
In other words they know they can not legally impose this but still try and impose this on people less informed of their rights and get away with it more times than not.
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You may wish to believe that, but I am quite certain they know they most certainly can enforce it.
I know you have some idea that these terms may be unfair, but I have no idea why you believe it likely a judge would agree with you.
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As I have said numerous times it is NOT FRUAD !
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It is irrelevant how many times you have said it.
You are probably wrong. The person giving the pass to another is not committing fraud, they are just breaching the T&C. A purely civil and contractual matter.
But the person using it, if they know (or can reasonably be assumed to know) that it is not valid for them is arguably committing fraud.
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the purchase price has been paid at the going rate they have said needs to be paid for an adult (discount for multiple days is irrelevant to this matter).
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It is not at all irrelevant. It is in fact the main reason why passes are not usually going to be transferrable. Why do you believe it may be irrelevant?
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By using words that people know as criminal they try and scare even bully you into giving up your rights, this is common tactics from many company's and people need to realise this and stand their ground. I accept they don't want you sharing a pass or transferring it I do not blame them for trying to stop it after all they are in the business of making money but laws are there to protect members of the public from being ripped off and laws are all that matters in the end which include not just the criminal laws they threaten ( most times incorrectly ) but also contractual laws they do not want you to know about.
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While this is true, I have seen nothing whatsoever to suggest that these T&C are not fully compliant with the law.
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These company's like huffing and puffing it is std company policy, and their company policy for you me and any member of the public is about as useful as secondhand toilet roll Though pam w I do love the cutting any ice bit 
You could argue more strongly that someone who gets up at 2am walks to the very top skis offpiste till they reach the pisted runs and uses said runs back is defrauding the resort as it costs money to piste said runs but I don't think any resort would every try pulling that one on a skier or snowboarder etc.
My statement re PPI
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Is utterly irrelevant.
Last edited by Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person on Thu 8-05-14 23:47; edited 1 time in total
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Corduroy wrote: |
| speed098 wrote: |
| pam w wrote: |
speed098, I'd like to be a listening marmotte on the day you decide to try out your theory on a French or Austrian lift pass inspector. 
Megamum, here you go http://www.s3v.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/CGVU-GB.pdf
very easy to find in my view - and if you google "ski pass non transferable" you get pages of similar stuff from resorts all over the shop. In English. |
Facts re law and corporate law are not theory they are fact just google these and see but sorry if you do not see how company's try to do this stuff even after high publicity cases such as PPI then I don't know what to say to you. I am happy to challenge any company who's T&C are unfair and equally happy to apologise to an individual or company if I do something wrong. It is a shame too many company's do not do the same.
All links re the resorts own website for lift passes are irrelevant if you buy via a tour operator as a package and also links should be very clear and easy to find.
It is not hard to put say a capitol "T" or "NT" next to each and every pass option and clearly state that "T" means Transferable and "NT" means non transferable or colour code them. Would love to see the IT tech for the lift company explain in court why this is impossible to do.
Many keep saying how it is our responsibility to look for to find to ask re T&C but the company are equally if not more so responsible for making it clear and the T&C easy to find and understand. Even then if a court decide they are unfair the T&C are not enforceable.
Please read my previous post re email and crediting and ask is this not a much better option that can actually make people come back potentially year after year. |
Surely the easier option is to sell passes for a set number of days that do not need to be used consecutively |
Many resorts do have such passes. They are usually still only valid for a fairly short period, such as 6 or 10 days, but they will sell passes valid for 4 days out of 6, or 7 days out of 10.
Obviously, these passes can only be made to work in resorts which have scanners, so they know how many of your days you have used up, but I think that is most major resorts nowadays.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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alex_heney,
relevance re PPI well fact it is it is an example of a large company imposing T&C that are unfair. It is also a valid point re your comment about the norm as all the card company's did it so what are you saying the judgement against them was wrong on the grounds that they all did it, it was the norm so therefore ok?
T&C are challenged quite often and yes not many go to court many times because the company do not want the judgement against them because that would mean they have to change the T&C by settling before court they can keep T&C as they are for the next gullible fool who thinks they have no right to challenge them.
Why would I almost certainly loose ? you state we do not have all the facts yet or is it because you dare not envisage challenging a big company?
Re the cost of a six day over a five day and a one day well that shows you already know the true reason company's do try this PROFIT !
This thread has shown it is not quite clear for all passes, and a simple fact ? The actual fact is you have a right to question and if need be challenge any company's T&C that you deal with so don't sell your rights away for nothing.
The company's have shown that unused days can be refunded ( all be it for medical reasons ) so the logistic argument for not doing so is void, so the next question is if you can refund why not ? Then do any other resorts offer refunds or any other alternatives for unused days the answer is yes. Next question so why do you not do so as well you have already admitted it is feasible.
So you are saying it is fine for you to keep money for unused days do you offer refunds if your lifts are not running ie break down high winds etc etc ? NO! why not. So if lifts are not running lets say because you have not maintained them to a high enough level you still get to keep the customers money.
All that is just for starters. Agree it may not be a certainty but equally they have more to loose than you because to loose would result in them being forced to change their T&C.
alex_heney,
I do agree with your last point re the attempt is enough if they had inserted a pass into the machine and did or were about to go through, but this would be relevant for stolen or forged passes which would be a criminal matter.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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To be honest as I have already stated the simple solution is for these company's to offer a credit for unused days valid for the next couple of seasons ( even then not everyone would take up this offer ) The company still gets to keep your money no need to sort out refunds and it would make it very difficult to challenge T&C on grounds of fairness. It would enable them to keep within fair T&C and yet not allow passes to be transferred, so then the only real option to challenge would be on the grounds of transparency ie you were not made aware of the T&C in advance of your purchase.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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| speed098 wrote: |
So alex_heney, You can only get a refund on medical grounds after paying for a medical note? you can not transfer the lift pass you can not get a refund or credit for unused days ? If that is the case when you look at the company's other terms and conditions re lifts not running acts of god etc etc then pretty easy case to show that the lift company not only want the cake and eat it but want you to buy the ingredients make it bring it round and feed it to them.
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I do think it likely that the term saying no refunds if the lifts don't run at all would be very likely indeed to be considered unfair by a court.
I don't think the rest would.
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But a previous post re Obergurgl shows a different side and even though yet another country from the OP issue does show that T&C can be more fair and the lift company would be hard pressed to justify not offering a similar option as Obergurgl.
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Of course T&C usually can be better. But that doesn't mean they are required to be better.
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Examples of other company's being more fair on T&C is very good ammunition to show that the company in question are not providing fair T&C.
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No it wouldn't.
What other companies do would be completely inadmissible in evidence. The question is not whether there are terms which would be better for the consumer, but rather whether the specific term in question is unfair under the definition given in law.
No refunds if the supplier fails to provide the service almost certainly would be. No refunds because you choose to go home early almost certainly would be. IN between that you have the various circumstances where you are prevented from using the service through no fault of either party. Those are more debatable, but IMO would still most likely not be considered unfair by the courts.
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[quote="speed098"]alex_heney,
relevance re PPI well fact it is it is an example of a large company imposing T&C that are unfair.
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Firstly it wasn't T&C - the judgments against them were for mis-selling.
Secondly, the fact that some companies have been found to have unfair T&C is irrelevant to this discussion.
We all know that, and nobody is disputing taht some companies have unfair T&C.
The question is about whether these T&C are unfair.
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It is also a valid point re your comment about the norm as all the card company's did it so what are you saying the judgement against them was wrong on the grounds that they all did it, it was the norm so therefore ok?
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Of course not.
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T&C are challenged quite often and yes not many go to court many times because the company do not want the judgement against them because that would mean they have to change the T&C by settling before court they can keep T&C as they are for the next gullible fool who thinks they have no right to challenge them.
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More often because it just isn't worth while for the company to fight the case. For small claims, the company will not usually be able to claim their costs even if they win, and those costs will usually outweigh the amount claimed. You can't assume that just because they pay out in a "goodwill gesture" that they would have lost if they had allowed it to go to court.
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Why would I almost certainly loose ? you state we do not have all the facts yet or is it because you dare not envisage challenging a big company?
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You would almost certainly lose because I do not think it likely taht any court would consider the "non transferrable" term to be unfair. "all the facts" is irrelevant here.
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Re the cost of a six day over a five day and a one day well that shows you already know the true reason company's do try this PROFIT !
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That is what they are in business for.
But the simple fact is that they offer a discount for multi day passes, on the basis that the pass is non-transferrable. It is unlikely IMO that any court would see that combination as unfair.
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This thread has shown it is not quite clear for all passes, and a simple fact ? The actual fact is you have a right to question and if need be challenge any company's T&C that you deal with so don't sell your rights away for nothing.
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I wouldn't dream of doing so. But I also wouldn't bother challenging T&C that I thought were perfectly reasonable.
As I say above, I think the term listed for one company that there will be no refunds in the case of lifts not operating almost certainly is unfair, and I would certainly challenge that if it ever happened to me. The one time it could have done, I didn't buy a weekly ticket, because it was obvious there would be no lifts running for a few days.
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The company's have shown that unused days can be refunded ( all be it for medical reasons ) so the logistic argument for not doing so is void,
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I'm not aware anybody has suggested there might be any logistical argument.
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so the next question is if you can refund why not ? Then do any other resorts offer refunds or any other alternatives for unused days the answer is yes. Next question so why do you not do so as well you have already admitted it is feasible.
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Those are all good questions to try and persuade lift companies to improve their offerings for the future.
They are not particularly useful questions in the context of asking whether a particular term is "fair" or not.
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So you are saying it is fine for you to keep money for unused days do you offer refunds if your lifts are not running ie break down high winds etc etc ? NO! why not. So if lifts are not running lets say because you have not maintained them to a high enough level you still get to keep the customers money.
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No, I have never suggested that is OK. In fact I have several times explicitly stated that I don't think that is OK.
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So alex_heney, It is ok because it is the NORM ie seems most others do it but when given examples of some that do not then what others do is irrelevant ?
If you want to let company's tell you what you can and can't do, what rights you do and do not have, that's is your choice good luck with it. But you do have a choice and a right to challenge company's. I have done so successfully but hey don't listen lets make assumptions that you can't because the company say you can't because it is in their T&C.
You accept the person providing the pass has not committed a criminal act great we may finally be getting somewhere with this.
You then state that the new user is arguably committing fraud because if it is assumed or can reasonably be assumed they know it is not valid for them ? how would they know they did not go to the ticket office and see the T&C. They are not an adult trying to use a childs pass which would validate your statement they are an adult using an adult pass.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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well i said i wouldnt continue, but i broke the promise.
discounts on longer passes is calculated o a number of parts.
incentivisation - to stay in the resort longermand therefore spend money in resort, thereby justifying the local business taxes and rates.
Its cheaper to sell a longer pass due to financial txn reasons. (cash or card handling or txn fees) pass production and handling, factorisation and also basic cash flow.
The new user point you raise above cant be a defense.
"he sold me the iphone 7xsbc it was as new but he only wanted £10, how was i to know it was stolen officer"
it wont wash in any court, irrespective of (i will say it again) whether you, i or ayone elso think the t's and c's are fair.
i
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| speed098 wrote: |
So alex_heney, It is ok because it is the NORM ie seems most others do it but when given examples of some that do not then what others do is irrelevant ?
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Any clues as to what you are on about?
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If you want to let company's tell you what you can and can't do, what rights you do and do not have, that's is your choice good luck with it.
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And the same to you.
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But you do have a choice and a right to challenge company's. I have done so successfully but hey don't listen lets make assumptions that you can't because the company say you can't because it is in their T&C.
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I have no idea what point you think you are making here.
Perhaps if you are going to respond with my name in your post, you could do the courtesy of saying things which have some relevance to what I have said?
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You accept the person providing the pass has not committed a criminal act great we may finally be getting somewhere with this.
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"Finally" because I have never ever said anything to suggest they might be?
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You then state that the new user is arguably committing fraud because if it is assumed or can reasonably be assumed they know it is not valid for them ?
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No I didn't. I said "IF", not "because". Big difference.
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how would they know they did not go to the ticket office and see the T&C. They are not an adult trying to use a childs pass which would validate your statement they are an adult using an adult pass. |
As has already been quoted in this thread, some tickets have it plainly stated on them. That is one way they could know.
It is also on some piste maps, if they had one of those. That is another possibility.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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[quote="speed098"]And [b]jogi[/b], no disrespect sorry to be so harsh but please check things out before saying you can't do something just because a company say you can not, they may in the end be right but do you honestly know till you check? If they are wrong do you really want them ripping you off ?[/quote]
This thing is pretty simple... if you don't like their terms, you don't use their services. Skiing and ski lifts are not essential services for your survival, so you can do just fine without using them if they are so unfair. Not to mention you are most likely not expert in Austrian, or French or Swiss laws, which might be "a little bit" different then what you have in UK, but then again, I'm sure lawyers are experts in everything, and I'm sure you know very well what is allowed and what is not in Austria for example. So once again, feel free and go and sue them. Good luck with that.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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This has to be a SHs record for twattery.
6 pages of partial (as many posts are quite sensible) nonsense because someone feels a tad aggrieved about something we have all, somehow, managed to cope with every time we've used a lift company's lifts.
The internet is a thing of wonder and beauty.
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I really can't believe a lot if the BS in this thread. It's pretty well established that ski passes are non- transferable and in that respect they aren't any different to other tickets for types if transportation or even recreation (they even wrote new touting laws around the Olympics).
Obviously it doesn't mean that people don't get away with it, that resorts don't turn a blind eye or there aren't some cases where passes aren't fungible (admin's VT spares strike me as an example). Lift cos must budget for a certain number of no show days when price setting and in Europe at least the Faustian bargain you strike for that discount on a 6 day pass is that you practically need the head of BMC to testify in person at the ticket office to avoid a polite Non Monsieur for any refund. Ever noticed how on the foulest of storm days a couple if drags will be kept open?
Some places do Parent passes at a small premium and these strike me as good business. Obviously it would be nice if yurp caught on more to the 5 from 8 type passes so you could have a sick day without financial loss. Equally I've advocated in the past here for more Euro resorts to consider the VR season pass pricing model to encourage repeat visits from non locals in a season but fundamental differences in resort economics make it unlikely to ever happen.
The biggest surprise for me in this thread us that VR have IT linked to 3v. When I picked up my free 5 day 3v pass in Val T, using my Epic pass reciprocity the tech medium of writing the EP no on a form and photocopying the pass was used. Maybe the Courch guy was BSing a bit and it was simply a photocopy that they'd scanned in.
Last edited by So if you're just off somewhere snowy come back and post a snow report of your own and we'll all love you very much  on Fri 9-05-14 10:35; edited 1 time in total
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| jafa wrote: |
As Kitzbuhel has very few scanners on there turnstiles, ie you don't even have to show your passes on loads of them, I think they cant be photographing the guests as they go through. And long may it continue, its technology for techs sake really. |
I wouldn't say it is "loads". Although I've only skied a couple of days at Kitzbuhel (both with espri), there were only a couple of lifts I visited that didn't use the usual scanning technology - and those were on the far side of the big 3S lift. |
Theres no checks on the horn after you get up the top. That's 5 out 5
On the Kirchberg side of the 3S theres Silverstube, Pengelstein 2, Hochhauser, Usterkar, Sonnenrast, that's about half. None where they check your pass. The gates open automatically
And quite rightly as you said, over at BarenBadkogel, and Pass Thurn, you don't have to scan a pass to go on the lifts.
One of the downsides of Skiing Kitz is you cant accurately measure how far you've skied as its not being recorded so frequently because you are not getting scanned.
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Poster: A snowHead
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In Les Karellis only the two big chairs out of the base station have SkiData gates. Everything else is completely open.
Great place!
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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you practically need the head of BMC to testify in person at the ticket office to avoid a polite Non Monsieur for any refund. Ever noticed how on the foulest of storm days a couple if drags will be kept open?
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That's got nothing to do with refunds on multi-day passes - they wouldn't refund you even if everything was closed, since this is done through your insurance and not by the lift company. The DAL (for example) would do their level best to keep as many lifts running as possible on a bad weather day, to the extent of keeping staff hanging around all day when it would have made much more sense financially to send them all home on half pay. And even on really bad days there were always people using the few lifts they managed to open, even when it was just the beginner slopes.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| speed098 wrote: |
| The question is did Vail have the legal right to send the photo to another resort in another country |
These controls affect my work and AFAIK there is no issue exporting personal data from the USA to Europe. There are legal controls on exporting personal data from the EU but afaik none on importing it.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Dave of the Marmottes, I have just worked out who you are. Could never feconcile your previous user name as although you could be a bit of a chubber , you were never a Bob 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Dave of the Marmottes, was it something you did, or was there another spurt of name changing on the bash?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
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I swore to myself I would stay out of this as I am tending to agree with under a new name's assessment of the way it has gone, BUT.........
Dave of the Marmottes, you say
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It's pretty well established that ski passes are non- transferable
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I'm just not sure it is, as I've pointed out before a number of us have admitted to not realising short duration multi days could not be passed on, and some others only found it out from this forum. The wider skiing community may well be in blissful ignorance.
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that resorts don't turn a blind eye
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Exactly, I am sure they have in the past on the shorter passes, now enforcement is seemingly increasingly more prevalent.
So, personally (unlike speed098), I have no problem with the passes being non-transferable, I just think the companies need to make that clearer to their customers at point of sale (before fining them and threatening police involvement). This in my opinion is not covered by a board full of T&C's by the desk, nor a page on the website, but is covered by adding a pic or name to the pass.
That's it. I'm out.
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There is a long and complex tale regarding how I earned my name involving mammals with significant belly fat reserves, yellowy grey fur around the chin and piercing alpine calls. And marmottes too. I' m sure the legend will grow in the telling through the generations.
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Ok my final post as quite a bit of what I am saying is either conveniently ignored or people just want to pick up on the parts that they choose.
1. I am not against passes being non transferable if the company offer some alternative for unused days ie as I have said a credit towards a future pass purchase.
2. T&C must be clearly displayed and available for anyone who wants to see/read them failure to do this brings up issues as how do you agree to T&C that you don't have the opportunity to see. This is the company's responsibility more so than the member of the public's.
3. If the lift company do not make it clear and want to charge someone as the OP reported then you have a right and I would recommend anyone to read the T&C before doing anything else. If the company refuse to supply these for you then you are not liable if they do read them take as long as you need to make sure you have read the relevant sections and ask them to point out any sections as well that they think are relevant. If it is clear and you think the T&C are fair pay up if not challenge further.
I am in agreement with midgetbiker, and others put this on the pass use photo id signature etc this is the clearest way of displaying thee relevant T&C.
And last point just don't take the company's word for it weigh up all the information and facts and from that decide if you have breached fair T&C if so pay up. If not then you must decide for yourself what you do some cases may be borderline and even though you know they should not be trying to fine you if the fine is not massive you may decide to pay it. But if there is nothing at all in the T&C about not transferring passes nothing on the pass itself I would refuse to pay. All I have tried to do is show people that just because a company say you do this does not mean you have to just do it, you have a right to check and confirm if you are obliged to first, and if not the right to refuse legally.
Now many have said well you should know you can not transfer a pass yet many have also said they did not know and the same goes do people know they have a right to check the T&C first even if the company threaten pay this or we get the police you still can check the T&C and then pay up if you agree to do so. They can not say that well if you want to read that we will just get the police that is them refusing to provide you with a copy of the T&C.
So I have received a lot of stick for pointing this out but to be honest if it saves one person from being ripped off or your comments make someone check a pass and read non transferable so they don't let someone else risk using it then be it 6 pages or 60 pages I view it worth every single word.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
That's got nothing to do with refunds on multi-day passes - they wouldn't refund you even if everything was closed, since this is done through your insurance and not by the lift company. ... |
If I buy a lift pass and the company fails to deliver what's offered, then I'd be getting my refund from *them*, not from the pooled resources of a bunch of people who bought "insurance". Why waste money insuring for something which is covered by consumer law?
More generally the whole secondary ticketing business is a rat's nest. I don't think anyone would be surprised to find there's some small print attempting to prevent you selling your pass to someone if you leave before the end of the day. The precise legality of that may be complex.
Personally I'd not pay a corporate "fine" for what sounds like a civil issue over small print. Getting that to stick in court would be expensive for them at best, hence I'd say they were trying to scare and rush you. I would want to slow that all down. Ask them politely to mail an invoice, then get your lawyers or the CAB to take a look at the contractual issues.
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| philwig wrote: |
| [If I buy a lift pass and the company fails to deliver what's offered, then I'd be getting my refund from *them* |
How? Lift pass office says no, so are you going to waste your precious holiday kicking up a stink or get a certificate from that lift office confirming closure and claim on your insurance when you get home. Like everyone else.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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philwig, good luck with trying that one at the ticket office.
Given that it's the case across all France's ski resorts that bad weather closures are reimbursable via ski insurance, I'd hazard guess that you are actually wrong about French consumer law.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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philwig doesn';t have any other option but to argue the toss at the ticket office as he self insures. And BTW your experience is only the case for France. Canadian resorts are usually pretty forthcoming with rainchecks and US ones can usually be embarassed into them when they haven't posted clearly about closures at the window.
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Dave of the Marmottes, my experience was Italy, not France.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
BTW your experience is only the case for France
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Err ... that would be why I said 'France' then.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Lizzard wrote: |
| Quote: |
BTW your experience is only the case for France
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Err ... that would be why I said 'France' then. |
yebbut your earlier post was more non specific - something about a mis-spelt lentil porridge
Anyhoo the point is that different countries have different systems, laws and consumer protection overrides so unless you want your holiday mired in wiklawyer angst s'easier just to go with the local flow. Unless the Cnuts have flogged you a daypass for $139 and you get up the first feeder lift to find everything else shut due to the wind. Then you're entitled to go postal.
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Poster: A snowHead
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That thing^
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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I thought it was common knowledge that passes were non-transferable, but apparently not. Ignorance of t&c is no defence.
We went to the Sella Ronda for the first time earlier this year and we bought ( through the t/o) the 6 day full area pass. These were gender specific with either a M or F after the ticket number. This is the first time I have experienced this, maybe the ticket flashes the gender up on the lifties screen so he can check the user is the correct sex for the ticket? I don't know? Doubt it would matter though as most of the lifties were out of the cabin sunning themselves on a recliner and smokin tabs 
It also reminds me of the old '10 run' tickets they used to issue when i was a learner at Cairngorm. The ticket had 10 numbered boxes and the liftie had a punch. He punched a hole in your ticket every time you used a lift, ten punches and you are out. You could use it on any combination of days. Possibly the fairest priced ticket ever.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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dode, the main chairlift out of Szczyrk (in Poland) is owned by the local council, but the feeder drags around it belong to individual farmers (the landowners) so there you need a pocket full of small change to pay each liftie as you grab an uplift.
A very fair (but bloody inconvenient) system
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Lizzard wrote: |
philwig, good luck with trying that one at the ticket office.
Given that it's the case across all France's ski resorts that bad weather closures are reimbursable via ski insurance, I'd hazard guess that you are actually wrong about French consumer law. |
If he is, the French consumer law is at odds with the EU directives.
Which wouldn't entirely surprise me.
The relevant Directive is here:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CELEX:31993L0013:en:HTML
And one of the terms listed in that as being unfair is:
| Quote: |
(b) inappropriately excluding or limiting the legal rights of the consumer vis-à-vis the seller or supplier or another party in the event of total or partial non-performance or inadequate performance by the seller or supplier of any of the contractual obligations, including the option of offsetting a debt owed to the seller or supplier against any claim which the consumer may have against him; |
The French (along with all other EU members are supposed to have transferred that directive into domestic law.
In the UK, the Unfair Terms In Consumer Contracts Regulations 1998 are almost a word for word match of large portions of the directive.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| dode wrote: |
I thought it was common knowledge that passes were non-transferable, but apparently not. Ignorance of t&c is no defence.
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It would be if they were not readily available at or before the point of purchase.
But they usually are readily available IME.
| Quote: |
It also reminds me of the old '10 run' tickets they used to issue when i was a learner at Cairngorm. The ticket had 10 numbered boxes and the liftie had a punch. He punched a hole in your ticket every time you used a lift, ten punches and you are out. You could use it on any combination of days. Possibly the fairest priced ticket ever. |
A lot of modern resorts do a "points" lift pass, where you buy a certain number of points, then each lift costs a certain number (with the main lifts up from the base usually being the most expensive). But those usually seem to be very expensive for anybody who is actually going to spend most of the day skiing. Half a dozen lifts usually adds up to almost as much as a full day pass.
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| jafa wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| jafa wrote: |
As Kitzbuhel has very few scanners on there turnstiles, ie you don't even have to show your passes on loads of them, I think they cant be photographing the guests as they go through. And long may it continue, its technology for techs sake really. |
I wouldn't say it is "loads". Although I've only skied a couple of days at Kitzbuhel (both with espri), there were only a couple of lifts I visited that didn't use the usual scanning technology - and those were on the far side of the big 3S lift. |
Theres no checks on the horn after you get up the top. That's 5 out 5
On the Kirchberg side of the 3S theres Silverstube, Pengelstein 2, Hochhauser, Usterkar, Sonnenrast, that's about half. None where they check your pass. The gates open automatically
And quite rightly as you said, over at BarenBadkogel, and Pass Thurn, you don't have to scan a pass to go on the lifts.
One of the downsides of Skiing Kitz is you cant accurately measure how far you've skied as its not being recorded so frequently because you are not getting scanned. |
All the ones where the gates open automatically are scanning your pass. And I suspect most of them will flash up a photo of you in the lift cabin too, so if the liftie happens to be looking at the screen and sees you look wildly different, they could stop you.
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Lizzard, Tignes gives credit for any days when all the paid lifts are closed. I have never had to claim on insurance for it.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| points" lift pass, where you buy a certain number of points, then each lift costs a certain number (with the main lifts up from the base usually being the most expensive). But those usually seem to be very expensive for anybody who is actually going to spend most of the day skiing. Half a dozen lifts usually adds up to almost as much as a full day pass. |
Points passes can be a good option for kids when learning. All that time stood standing round waiting for the rest of the class...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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midgetbiker, I like the sound of that Polish resort. It appeals to my mojo  do the farmers charge the same for each lift?
Agree with musher, that the points passes sound ideal for beginner classes. Just as the 10run ticket was good for us as kids.
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| alex_heney wrote: |
| jafa wrote: |
| alex_heney wrote: |
| jafa wrote: |
As Kitzbuhel has very few scanners on there turnstiles, ie you don't even have to show your passes on loads of them, I think they cant be photographing the guests as they go through. And long may it continue, its technology for techs sake really. |
I wouldn't say it is "loads". Although I've only skied a couple of days at Kitzbuhel (both with espri), there were only a couple of lifts I visited that didn't use the usual scanning technology - and those were on the far side of the big 3S lift. |
Theres no checks on the horn after you get up the top. That's 5 out 5
On the Kirchberg side of the 3S theres Silverstube, Pengelstein 2, Hochhauser, Usterkar, Sonnenrast, that's about half. None where they check your pass. The gates open automatically
And quite rightly as you said, over at BarenBadkogel, and Pass Thurn, you don't have to scan a pass to go on the lifts.
One of the downsides of Skiing Kitz is you cant accurately measure how far you've skied as its not being recorded so frequently because you are not getting scanned. |
All the ones where the gates open automatically are scanning your pass. And I suspect most of them will flash up a photo of you in the lift cabin too, so if the liftie happens to be looking at the screen and sees you look wildly different, they could stop you. |
Alex, Im sorry to keep contradicting you, but the ones mentioned open automatically when the chair passes a particular point and all 4/6/8 gates open. There is definetly no scanning involved. They open even when there is no one going through them
The ones at Jufen and Ochsalm etc you have it scanned in some cases 10 metres before the lifties.
If you log onto a ski tracking site-cant remember what it is now- the ones mentioned previously do not log as going through. Hence my reasoning about not being scanned.
The only time in Kitzbuhel that I know your photograph comes up is at the bottom of the gondolas. once you are up the mountain, they only scan for validity on time/date being correct. Nothing else.
I should know, Ive been skiing there annually for nigh on 14 seasons now.
When I too skied with Espri over in Fieberbruun, I was amazed at the different technology in use. You physically saw your own photograph as you went through
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