 Poster: A snowHead
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| noskitrip wrote: |
I have a report that he is setting up a holiday business for trips to Jamaica, Barbados etc. Anyone else know of this?  |
I can confirm this. Doubt it actually got set up mind
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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So is the answer to my earlier question that he can indeed continue trading. I'm all for the innocent till proven guilty principle but that would take the biscuit.
Perhaps of course there are other processes going on to deal with that.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| ccl wrote: |
So is the answer to my earlier question that he can indeed continue trading. I'm all for the innocent till proven guilty principle but that would take the biscuit.
Perhaps of course there are other processes going on to deal with that. |
If he is innocent, you can hardly stop someone from their livelihood? I think he is guilty, probably of fraud and over trading, but every one chasing him needs to be whiter than white. Balances paid, small print read etc. otherwise he will walk away.
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| lightningdan wrote: |
| If he is innocent, you can hardly stop someone from their livelihood? . |
That's the dilemma isn't it? Mind you there are plenty less scrupulous about such niceties who might say he should have plenty spare to live on.
Can police bail impose conditions as to what you can and cannot do to the extent of stopping your business?
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ccl, I hope not.
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If he is innocent, you can hardly stop someone from their livelihood?
If he is innocent, one might reasonably expect him to be doing things more proactively to address the widespread concerns out there about his operation and its financial viability if he expects a livelihood from this particular avenue to continue to be available.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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ccl, I do not think so, unless your business itself is illegal, ie drug dealing. I imagine he will have a pretty hot lawyer , who will blame anyone with an outstanding balance as a reason for failure, also anyone who cancelled because alternative accommodation was offered and not taken will be deemed at fault, please see note from T&C's below.
ARRANGEMENTS
(For complete statement see reverse of Booking Form). The holidays offered in this brochure are prepared in the utmost good faith. However, as the firm does not own the transport and accommodation facilities etc., we cannot be held responsible for alterations beyond our control. For some of our tours we act as agents. In the event of any alterations being necessary, the firm will make the greatest endeavours to ensure the maintenance and smooth running of the arrangements or holiday.
All details, arrangements and prices shown in the brochure are accurate to the best of our ability at the time of printing. However, from time to time it may be necessary to amend details or change schedules, etc, and we naturally reserve the right to do this without prior warning.
For Coach Groups a deposit of £75 per person will be required at the time of booking (Air Groups £100), with a second deposit of £75 being due 8 weeks after, and a third deposit of £75 being due a further 8 weeks after the second and a fourth deposit of £75 is due a further 8 weeks after the third. Full payment must be made 10 weeks before departure, and tickets, arrangements, etc., can only be given when payment is complete.
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| ccl wrote: |
| lightningdan wrote: |
| If he is innocent, you can hardly stop someone from their livelihood? . |
That's the dilemma isn't it? Mind you there are plenty less scrupulous about such niceties who might say he should have plenty spare to live on.
Can police bail impose conditions as to what you can and cannot do to the extent of stopping your business? |
Short answer "No" - bail conditions have to be for reasons like preventing harm, further offences and interference with evidence.
On the bright side, assuming they really get their teeth into him, the paper trail should be enough to nail him.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Hmmm. So AITO are trying to walk away from it - but shovelling the blame anywhere else they can. Suspending their "100% guarantee" for future business is fine, but that "guarantee" still applied for past business. OK so they are offering advice - but it's not clear they are doing anything more than that. It says they would "continue to find a way of helping all those school children affected including those who booked prior to Skiing Europe becoming a member of AITO" (I assume the report omits "trying" after "continue"). So does membership of AITO actually give the customer, beyond some cosmetic feel good factor and a shoulder to cry on, anything at all?
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frogslegs & GrahamN
Should be dead simple thing to sort out. We have to pay a (stupidly increasing each year) amount the Gov for our ATOL. Why not just make it a AaLTOL - Air and Land Tour Operators Licence.
I assume (big assumption given the current economic climate  the Gov ain't going to go bust any time soon. So, as the ATOL is back by HM, it seems the obvious answer.
Problem solved
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You know it makes sense.
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| frogslegs wrote: |
http://www.travelmole.com/stories/1148633.php
You guys will most likely be interested in this. |
Brilliant. Who'd have thought at the start that the people coming out of this looking the most foolish would be AITO? Wonder if the PR woman who made the promises on "You & Yours" has had her cards yet?
So is there really any point to AITO?
Edit: Glad I quoted the stuff from their website on 1 July as some of it, not surprisingly, seems now to have disappeared
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Poster: A snowHead
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The big question now should be whether AITO have professional indemnity in place (with sufficient limit). In my view, some of those who have lost money while CR/SE were insured, would have a case against AITO and I'd imagine that AITO are insured for such an eventuality.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Bode Swiller, Mmm. Maybe. If AiTO can show that it acted with reasonable diligence would they themselves be liable? As for 'walking away' what else can they do now that the insurance company has pulled the plug on their insurance - as noskitrip has pointed out?
| Quote: |
| The association said the move called into question the validity of insurance-backed financial protection across the travel sector. |
Seems a fair point. Not sure this one is resolvable, either for the SE case, or in the future. We may be returning to the days of caveat emptor.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Just another case of 'they have your money and its not easy to get it back'.
Unless 'the law' (as in Police authority) does something in these cases, there seems to be little chance of the other 'law' (Courts) getting anywhere. This has been a depressing thread to see any 'justice', but at least there has finally been some visible progress(arrest) to sooth disgruntled and helpless victims of this shambles.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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| Quote: |
We may be returning to the days of caveat emptor.
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Which is certainly the way I look at everything.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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um, dont aito just protect the consumer if the business goes under? The business isnt yet bankrupt?
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Shimmy Alcott, I refer you to the previous 49 pages.
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achilles, I'm not sure what standard of reasonable dilligence would be expected of AITO. If I were a judge I guess I'd expect a single consumer to have a base level of common sense in choosing where to spend his/her money, I'd probably hold schools/teachers and LEAs to a much higher standard given that they are dealing in other peoples' money. For an industry body whose primary purpose is to provide consumers with some assurance that their members are above board and that consumers are appropriately protected I think I'd be looking for a pretty high standard in their vetting of members before admission.
The key question throughout this thread seems to have been why did no-one see it coming? If AITO don't actually do any digging before they accept members and are wholly reliant on insurance providers there is a serious question of why? It took no-one much effort to do a little research and find the chain of past events around Mr Reynard and it seems his business practices were an open secret among those he had employed and transacted with. So how has AITO in addition to LEAs and schools been had over?
I obviously don't have the full facts but I'm leaning toward some sympathy to the insurer if Reynard did directly lie to them in his application or supporting evidence though I question why the whole arrangement (of 3rd party insurance rather than some more direct bond) was allowed by Package Hol Regs in the first place as it seems in hindsight deeply flawed. I don't have the same sympathy for AITO as surely if they are more than just a marketing shell their purpose is to test on behalf of the consumer whether their members do really reach a standard so as not to bring the industry further into disrepute? To do this properly they must surely have to start from a position that all applicant members are potentially fly-by-nights or fraudsters and satisfy themselves why this is not the case.
Last edited by Then you can post your own questions or snow reports... on Tue 26-07-11 11:48; edited 1 time in total
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Wayne - its a dark art that PTR reg about protection on non-air hols. Without the admittedly, fairly inept CAA to enforce its all too easy to pass under the radar! However in this case it looks like AITO have been caught out by the wriggling done by the insurer. As AITO is essentially an 'old boys club' for TO traditionalists most of which are selling ATOL protected packages this whole sorry saga will be causing their law abiding members to ask some very difficult questions especially if they end up footing an expensive legal bill! AITO is funded by the members so whoever let the rogue in will have some explaining to do.
As others have suggested above it will be interesting to see who legally considers it their 'patch' to sort out. It never fails to entertain me that the industry spends so much time debating the various merits of flights plus, include add-ons, get the airlines included etc etc whilst a very poorly regulated sector gets no attention at all! I hope the resolution for those that lost out does not take years but sadly I think this will run for a long time.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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fatbob, Oh I agree with pretty much all of that - however, I think it would take a really messy court case to determine how much the insurance company itself should have vetted what AITO did - or at least what depth of advice was given. I know for the company I work for, an insurance company went to considerable lengths to advise what procedures and physical things we should have - and monitored that we followed up - and then gave us further advice. Rather a good system. So some insurance companies feel that they themselves have a duty of diligence. Maybe that should have happened in this case, and a judge would think so, too?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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... when all else is done and dusted ... the parents contract is with their respective schools ... 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Travelmole .... here
| Quote: |
| AITO is making urgent changes to its charter and website following its decision yesterday to temporarily suspend its 100% financial guarantee. Members with insurance cover are having to act fast to make customers aware of the changes, by over-stickering their brochures, changing their websites, and briefing their staff. |
| Quote: |
Q. What advice has AITO given to its 23 members with such policies?
A. AITO is asking these members to look at alternative methods of financial protection. In the meantime AITO lawyers are writing to the insurers of those members asking them if they will guarantee that they will always honour refunds to clients should the AITO member in question fail. If an insurer so guarantees then members can continue to offer financial protection in this way.
Q. Does this have implications for other tour operators - ie non AITO members?
A. Yes. We have no idea how many companies have per person tour operator failure policies but there must be many hundreds out there.
Q. Why has this loophole not come to light before?
A. We believe that there have been instances before but AITO has not come across them. This case is, in a way, a perfect storm scenario - economic crisis, the withdrawal of credit by banks, big group bookings and children involved.
Q. What is AITO going to do next?
A. AITO is trying to assess the size of the problem which is difficult because the company in question is no longer an AITO member. We are liaising with police and trading standards. AITO will continue to talk to BIS and other Government departments. We believe very strongly that Government action is required to sort this out. This is not something a trade association can do alone. We've been shocked that it is apparently bad drafting of the PTRs that have brought this problem about.
Q. What would need to change for AITO to bring back its 100% financial guarantee?
A. Either all members need to be bonded or insurance companies have to offer guarantees that they will not renege on the cover that has been bought on consumers' behalf.
Q. What are the implications for AITO members who are covered in other ways (ie not relying on this kind of insurance)?
A. Members continue to offer their own financial guarantees.
Q. How are AITO and its members making customers aware of this change? And do you think customers will understand it?
A. Members with insurance cover are having to over-sticker their brochures, change their websites, brief their staff and AITO is having to change its quality charter and website. We doubt that customers will understand this as it is so complex. We doubt many in the travel industry will understand let alone their customers. This is something the travel industry has to sort out with Government and insurance providers. |
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I think the info on aito shown on the Travel Mole website should have a thread of its own? Anyone agree? Its got to affect quite a few of us on here.
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You know it makes sense.
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| Quote: |
Q. What are the implications for AITO members who are covered in other ways (ie not relying on this kind of insurance)?
A. Members continue to offer their own financial guarantees.
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..which is an admission that AITO is as much use as a chocolate teapot. That quote fatbob pulled on 1st July
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Holidays with AITO members offer 100% full financial protection
Financial protection is something that we don't normally think about until something goes wrong, of course - and that's the time when we regret not having looked into it properly. It's a complex issue, particularly in the travel industry - but you can relax when you book an AITO holiday because AITO members comply with the highest standards of consumer protection. Every AITO holiday is backed not only by AITO's Quality Charter but also by full financial protection |
actually should read
"Hoildays with AITO members offer the financial protection that members think won't cost them too much, and they've told us they really, really, really mean it....and AITO think they're really rather nice chaps"
| Quote: |
Q. How are AITO and its members making customers aware of this change? And do you think customers will understand it?
A. Members with insurance cover are having to over-sticker their brochures, change their websites, brief their staff and AITO is having to change its quality charter and website. We doubt that customers will understand this as it is so complex. We doubt many in the travel industry will understand let alone their customers.... |
should really read as "We're as thick as the average man in the street, so if we've been caught out...tough luck on them as well".
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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| Quote: |
AITO chairman Derek Moore said: “This case throws into question the viability of a great many insurance policies which are currently in use in the travel industry.
“AITO thus calls on Government and the industry in general to look very closely at policy wordings so that such an unfortunate situation, denying consumers the cover for which they have paid, cannot occur in the future.”
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Nothing like manning up and taking responsibility is there Derek?
| Quote: |
Q. Why has this loophole not come to light before?
A. We believe that there have been instances before but AITO has not come across them. This case is, in a way, a perfect storm scenario - economic crisis, the withdrawal of credit by banks, big group bookings and children involved.
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This just cracks me up, everyone else is to blame not AITO's own slackness and lack of understanding of its own industry. Only surprised not to see the World Cup, 2012 Olympics, VAT increase and UK snow in December not thrown into the excuse pot.
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Poster: A snowHead
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From e-tid,
International Passenger Protection (IPP), the biggest supplier of consumer financial protection insurance to the trade, has attempted to reassure travel companies by saying it has not refused a valid claim due to insolvency of a tour operator in its 21 years of trading. Director Paul Mclean issued a statement following AITO’s decision to suspend its 100% protection guarantee from 1 August after insurance company AmTrust Europe cancelled cover for Skiing Europe, arguing there had been a ‘material non-disclosure’ in its insurance
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| Quote: |
| International Passenger Protection (IPP).....has not refused a valid claim due to insolvency of a tour operator in its 21 years of trading. |
....but that implies they have refused invalid claims...and who decides what is invalid? No doubt AmTrust could make a similar statement today, as they have said that the insurance contract itself was invalid (and of course there has as yet been no claim).
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| GrahamN wrote: |
| Quote: |
| International Passenger Protection (IPP).....has not refused a valid claim due to insolvency of a tour operator in its 21 years of trading. |
....but that implies they have refused invalid claims...and who decides what is invalid? No doubt AmTrust could make a similar statement today, as they have said that the insurance contract itself was invalid (and of course there has as yet been no claim). |
right back at ya! Don't you just love small print.
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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This thread is now on its 49th page. Will there be a Snowheads Half-century Bash to mark the occasion of the next page? If you are interested in a ski trip, I know a company that will do you a really good deal in some of the best resorts in Europe. Can we have some buttons please, Admin?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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I cant believe that AITO are backing out, it does make it a completely worthless organisation, i mean seriously, what is the point of it?
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You'll need to Register first of course.
You'll need to Register first of course.
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| ccl wrote: |
| This thread is now on its 49th page. Will there be a Snowheads Half-century Bash to mark the occasion of the next page? If you are interested in a ski trip, I know a company that will do you a really good deal in some of the best resorts in Europe. Can we have some buttons please, Admin? |
Only if I can have a free heli-trip and someone teach me to play the guitar.
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From Etid ( might take it to 50)
AITO to take its insurance case to Europe
28 Jul 2011
The Association of Independent Tour Operators is to take its Package Travel Regulations (PTRs) fight to the European courts.
AITO is currently seeking written clarification from insurance companies that they will honour policies they have in place with members in the event of a company failure.
The move follows the decision by AmTrust Europe not to honour a policy it had with Skiing Europe, which used to be an AITO member before it ceased trading.
AITO claims that, under Clause 19 of the PTRs, when a policy is in place, the insurer has to pay out.
However, AmTrust Europe has said the policy was void because of a ‘material non-disclosure’ by Skiing Europe, which is now being investigated by police and Trading Standards.
AITO claims the move has exposed a loophole in the PTRs and says it has been forced to withdraw its 100% protection claim until the situation is clarified.
AITO's industry issues director, Noel Josephides, said: ‘If the other insurers come back to say that they would have acted in exactly the same way as AmTrust, then that will be a sorry day for consumer financial protection in the UK.
‘It has to be clearly understood that it is the consumer, not the tour operator, that is the insured person and the consumer has no way of knowing whether, in the event of a claim, the insurance company will or will not pay out.
‘What sort of protection is that?
‘It does seem that the Department for Business, Innovation and Skills (BIS) is quite comfortable with the current situation so AITO will have bring the matter up with the Commission.
‘We hope that the other insurers will come back to us in a positive fashion, otherwise the public will have to be informed that these tour operator failure policies are no guarantee of financial protection
‘AITO is continuing to be pro-active in trying to bring this lengthy process to an end, and is looking forward to hearing from schools affected by this debacle.
‘We are also heartened by the verbal comments we have received from within the insurance industry about what we perceive to be a flaw in the consumer protection situation in the UK.’
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radar, I'd suspect that AITO has been advised it's in a very rocky position due to it's previous promise and who knows what insurance they themselves carry. No ideal if there is any mutuality which might mean other members carry the can. Whatever it seems like AITO is a bust unless they can convincingly resurrect 100% protection quickly and the many members who rely on its umbrella could well struggle to impress potential customers once the story is picked up by the mainstream media. I've no doubt that this is right up Simon Calder's street so Watchdog, BBC Breakfast, the Independent etc etc.
Somewhere along the line the industry "experts" at AITO have to admit that they too were conned by Reynard or simply didn't care enough to screen him properly (despite what they said in their spiel).
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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How come AITO is considering the European courts already? Has their case already run as far as it can through the High and Supreme Courts?
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achilles, I'd suspect it's largely bluster typical of organisations with no real clout. Asking the Commission to influence UK law is hardly going to be a swift process.
Now I've learnt a bit about these things it seems that any member had the option of bonding rather than insurance but of course insurance was a much cheaper option (particularly if a hypothetical applicant decided to lie about certain financial details to secure a lower premium). Insurers seem to have decided that this particular market is more trouble than it's worth (perhaps due to prevalence of bad apples or instrinsic volatility?). So net costs go up for any TO wanting to continue to operate legally. I'd expect a shakeout.
Last edited by Ski the Net with snowHeads  on Fri 29-07-11 20:04; edited 1 time in total
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FAQ
I said it before; spineless organisation and not getting my consumer ££s ever again. This case could be labelled up "dumb and dumber!"
