Skiing Europe/Chris Reynard - Children's ski holiday left in ruins.

A snowHead

Chris Mason,

I share your scepticism about the profits figure quoted by AITO - they also quoted a figure of £4m assets (some chance). Yes the figures quoted may well be doubtful given subsequent events, but that just raises questions as to whether AITO were told the truth by CR in order to secure AITO membership (which if proven would be a fraud in itself) and the quality of AITO's checking procedures.

As for SE trading as a company - the insurer has made clear to all and sundry that the insurance cover is for CR trading as SE - although the posts by outofpocket above indicate that there might be some attempt going on to shift the business into the limited company.

As for AITO allowing sole traders into membership - they have confrimed to me that there other sole traders within their membership - it suprised me as well. What some do is also set up a limited company with the same name as their trading operation - just for name protection. The company then remains dormant. This is quite a common procedure and in itself is nothing sinister. If you look at Companies House the reason given for SE not filing accounts was that the company was dormant - at least until the last filed statement. If this is not the case then this would mean that all sorts of additional offences may have been committed.

I totally agree that only a full investigation of CR's activities will reveal the truth - and given events todate and the many consistencies which have been identified the authorities have more than enough grounds to conduct such an investigation. If the industry wants to be sucessful - I do think it should ask some questions as to how effective AiTO is self policing the industry - and also whether bankruptcy is the right trigger point for insurance/bonding arrangements held by sole traders.

A snowHead

So that everyone is clear that there is no "legal way" that CR t/as SE or SE Ltd can any longer accept payment or take bookings see email I received today below. Assuming that many of the creditors have started proceedings (which they have) then the end is now in sight.

Dear *************,

Thank you for your call today and I hope that I have assisted in clarifying your immediate queries in relation to our Financial Failure insurance policy issued by AmTrust Europe Ltd in respect of C Reynard t/as Skiing Europe.

Specifically:

1. The policy coverage only relates to C Reynard t/as Skiing Europe and not Skiing Europe Ltd. No policy has been issued in the name of the latter.

2. The policy only covers payments made within the policy period. This being 1st May 2010 – 30th April 2011. Any payments made subsequent to 30th April 2011 would not be covered by the insurance policy issued by AmTrust Europe Ltd.

For the sake of further clarity I attach our ‘standard’ financial failure insurance wording for your retention.

I trust this clarifies our position at this stage and should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact me.

Regards

Mike Pinner

Chief Financial Officer

Amtrust Europe Limited

10th Floor, Market Square House,

St James's Street,

Nottingham, NG1 6FG

Office: **********

Mobile: **********

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

outofpocket, might be best to remove that email address - it's an open invitation to spam bots

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outofpocket, Very useful - just so everyone is aware anyone booking a holiday with a tour operator is entitled to ask for confirmation of the insurance/bonding arrangements from the Tour Operator under the Package Holiday Regs. If Reynard says he is insured/bonded elsewhere I would seek to confirm details with the insurance company/bank offering the bond before making any commitment whatsoever.

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Yes nice post Chris Mason. I also think there is a reason to have a SE Ltd entity, and wonder if the Schools deal with CR as sole trader but the hotels and other business get paid by SE Ltd? Perhaps CR trading as SE pays SE Ltd to 'perform the service' of booking stuff? That way if SE Ltd goes bust owing payments to dozens of hotels and ski firms, the liability to stump up is minimised. But what about liability to the Schools/group that paid money and are owed it back? The difference is possession - CR has the money and the Schools have to drag his butt through the courts to retrieve it - not easy or fast as we are seeing.
Also, how are the Schools payments guarranteed if the AITO bond is with SE Ltd? (I previously thought the AITO bond was with CR trading as SE, as required to be in business as a TO ?)
Edit - sorry this last bit was just clarified in the meantime.

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outofpocket, I've remove phone number and email addresses to hopefully prevent spaming

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outofpocket, can you explain to me how you know there is no legal way he can take bookings anymore?

After all it is free

Shimmy Alcott, The Package Holiday regs require that any tour operator have insurance/bonding arrangements to protect their customers from loss should the TO become insolvent/bankrupt - this relates to both holidays still to be taken and those which are in progress. It is theoretically possible that CR/SE may have got insurance/bonding elsewhere, although I have my doubts that any bank/insurance company would offer it - which is why it is important that any potential customers use their legal rights to ask for evidence of the arrangement should CR claim that their is cover in place.

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noskitrip, how do you know what insurance the business has? You know what company is not insuring it - but that is all. Stephen101 doubts the business has the insurance, but he does not say he knows.

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what about payments before the 1st May 2010 for schools that cancelled their half term and easter 2011 trips ?

You know it makes sense.

A couple of points to make:

1) SE/SE Ltd doesn’t have alternative insurance as it was me who informed Chris last week that AM Trust are not insuring his company. I also informed him that CRt/as SE cannot accept payments after 30th April. He thought that any bookings made before 30th April were covered in perpetuity - which in fairness to him is what Status had told him (and me), likewise Status has suggested to me that SE ltd was covered. Both are not the case. I am happy to say that I don’t believe that CR was aware his insurance was invalid, I think the brokers let him down - but that’s irrelevant now.

2) "Does that not leave anyone with a booking for next year (e.g. outofpocket) in an even more "interesting" position" - no it leaves all 12 2012 groups in a much better position. AM Trust have confirm to me that our deposit is covered and that unless CR had continuous cover from another insurer (he didn’t) then we are in no obligation to pay any further cash and demand our deposit back. Clearly SE has no money so we wont get it until the insurance kicks in. Hence the importance of creditors submitting claims, i.e hotels, instructors, coach firms etc..

3) "what about payments before the 1st May 2010 for schools that cancelled their half term and easter 2011 trips ?" the insurance has been in place for years so the dates aren’t relevant, However, I’m no expert but I would say that many Schools will be in a difficult position and the fact that they cancelled makes it problematic (no matter how valid the reason for cancelling). The insurers may take a sympathetic position and pay out everyone or it may be deemed a contractual issue and therefore the schools should consider themselves creditors and try and get a slice of the action from his estate - clearly you will all be getting advice to this effect. I know that I would have stuck a claim in the day I cancelled for breach of contract by SE etc.. and I’m sure most did do that.

The end is in sight. Feb 2012 trips will certainly get paid out when he goes bust. Last years may get paid out or may have to take a % in the pound from the administrator.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

GrahamN,

I think you are right that if CR t/a SE cannot arrange insurance elsewhere and hence operate legally then he is both under the Regs and normal contract law required to offer a full refund - and if he cannot pay then those concerned would have to join the queue with all the other creditors, but bear in mind that the deposits paid to date will still be covered by the insurance arrangements. I don't think that there would be an obligation to pay a penny more until CR produced a valid insurance certificate for CR t/a SE.

A snowHead

btw "Dave" who was the last employee at SE and worked Monday, Wenesday and Friday has now left due to not being paid.

He was a good guy, very honest and didnt try to hind anything. He, like me, was very much of the opinion that CR was not a crook but the owner of a failing business.

A snowHead

outofpocket, whatever ones views of CR, it sounds like a result for you. Congratulations. I hope you can now move on to sorting out a replacement trip for your troop with a "more secure" organisation.

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

outofpocket,

Re your point 1 about CR saying he was not aware of a change in his insurance position for over a month - all I can is that CR is either incredibly naive or he is something worse.

I totally agree with you that is important that everyone submits their claims for refunds.

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The SE site presently is advising that website is undergoing a major overhaul and will be back up soon. It gives contact information. It does not say that SE has ceased trading.

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outofpocket,

AmTrust confirmed to me (verbally) at the end of February (and someone else - see the bulletin board) that the Insurance Cover was in respect of CR t/a SE. CR claims he only realised when told by a customer at the start of June, when he was trying to shift a contract into SE Ltd.

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GrahamN,

Thanks, had a good offer from a company called Skiteam4 which we'll look at. tbh, might just leave it a year its been a bit of a mess around not sure I can be bothered with starting again this year!!!!!

Does anyone know anything about skiteam4?

After all it is free

outofpocket, strange that the cover ended after 1 year - 1 May 2010 to 30 April 2011. Exactly a year. Was it not a case of the insurance not being renewed, rather than it being cancelled? How could CR not know that? Maybe his surprise was that you'd got hold of that information - in the past he's got away with stuff as information was much easier to hide before the internet.

outofpocket, also, congrats and I am in awe of your fact finding Very Happy

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Shimmy Alcott, It's just about possible that the broker failed to pass on the message about SE's insurance not being renewed - but given his position, his need for new business, and the legal requirement to produce an insurance certificate to any customer who asked for one, it would be somewhat naive of CR (to say the least) not to check for himself. outofpocket, is right that there is a fine line between businesses dealing with genuine business diffculties and trading while insolvent/fraudulent trading - and you really cannot look at any one indicator in isolation. Most with experience in this area would look at a wide range of indicators and see if any pattern arose. All I can say is that in this case there are quite a large number of indicators - some of which are based on facts, some of which are behavioural - and in my view there is a clear pattern worthy of further investigation by the authorities.

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What this thread highlights to me, is how wide the flaws appear to be in current bonding systems. I don't use TOs much but I'll be even more sceptical of the value of ATOL bonding in the future.

fatbob, don't get ATOL and AITO confused. Whether AITO conducts rigorous checks of its members or takes things on trust, and it would appear they at least have some questions to answer, should say nothing about how ATOL (a completely different organisation, and arguably a different industry) operates.

You know it makes sense.

fatbob,

To be fair I don't think the system works too badly when applied to companies where there are often banks involved which can push the company into insolvency and then trigger the bond/insurance, so I wouldn't mess around in those areas. There is clearly a problem with sole traders where the mechanisms for forcing bankruptcy are much more prolonged and the TO can fail to fufil their obligations for a long time before the customer gets any protection. Also AITO and ATOL are responsible for running some of the schemes - and I'm not sure that the former's criteria for admission to membership are as strong as they might be. If I were a tour operator I would be lobbying AiTO to put their houses in order before the Govt is required to step in and do it for them.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

A snowHead

A snowHead

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Stephen101, the travel industry business seems like a law unto itself - what other industry allows the sale of products/services that do not even exist ?

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erm....the (residential) construction industry?

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Financial Services CDOs / toxic loans ?
I'd go along with the view that CR ran into trading problems and cashflow, and THEN resorted to type and behaving badly to keep things afloat. The sad thing is that if/when someone in authority, or the legal process, brings this to a close, CR will lose his pension but still be a millionaire and lots of 'little people' will be out of pocket. Sounds just like the banking crisis in miniature.

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GrahamN, I think buying off plan is a strange one, but there is a plan to build, land owned, buildings designed and the units are not actually over sold or sold twice, and even then most deals are based upon a reservation fee and payment upon completion of the unit. However in the travel industry I have read threads on here about hotels being sold on but TO's still selling holidays for the (unavailable) hotel, and with SE selling rooms in hotels that are already full and being paid fully upfront without any sort of confirmation of expenditure on the service/product themselves, It is ok to sell seats on a flight that has not taken off the same as it is ok selling houses that have not yet been built, but airlines having a policy of seling more seats on a flight than a plane can hold ... well it is all quite strange imho

After all it is free

rayscoops, You have actually hit on one of the main reasons why the industry is not doing very well at the moment - tour operators and agents will only have a viable future if they can add value to the purchaser directly over and above the purchaser directly buying the components themselves - and that is a lot easier now with the internet, credit protection on credit cards etc etc. The TO can add value by taking over the admin, adding some knowledge as to the best locations, all inclusive packages etc. , taking some of the credit risk (if you have proper insurance/bonding, getting betetr prices through bulk buying - but that value is shrinking and some TO's seem to think that they might as well take away value by double booking, overcharging for extras. Group trips are probably one of the areas where it is easier to add value - but how long will it bee before you can book all the elements (with inspection visits thrown in) on lastminute.com or easy school ski trip or similar. If the TOs want to preserve their industry they need to start getting their act together and deal with the dross- rather than just carrying on relying on the inertia of those who have always used TOs.

Stephen101, agreed .. now there is a first Very Happy

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My MP has raised the matter of Chris Reynard with Vince Cable - no other info, yet.

Help!!

Skiing Europe/Chris Reynard - Children's ski holiday left in ruins.

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