 Poster: A snowHead
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crazy_skier_jules, if you go to the EOSB I'm sure easiski, would be able to show you what to do, but basically you put in lots of turns across the slope rather than going down the fall line which means you don't go as fast and only face down the slope briefly during the turns, as your confidence builds you put in less turns and can go closer to the fall line
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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sounds easy enough  yes i'll see easiski about it at the EOSB if (when) I go!
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Great diagram! Have the boy's enormous trainers shifted his CoG downwards perhaps?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, damned if I know what you modern instructors call it  I think it used to be called linked traverses, although I understand boarders sometimes do something similar called the falling leaf, whatever you call it, it's the best way for a beginner to get comfortable with a steeper slope
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garlands, I get it...
thanks easiski, shame you can't come to the first week, but thankyou anyway!
Julia
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easiski, ah no I meant traversing backwards and fowards across the face of the slope i.e from one side to the other in opposite directions, although your garlands method is great for going arround a hill.
Whatever, the important thing is that Julia gets someone to show her how to traverse, because it's needed for both methods
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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Oh dear, I feel so stupid... I think I can traverse, I just forgot about that option... time to get the ski books out again. *Reaches into book case and finds skiing book borrowed off friend's dad about 5 months ago... oh dear...*
thanks guys!
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| easiski, ah no I meant traversing backwards and fowards across the face of the slope i.e from one side to the other in opposite directions... |
That's what I'd call "Falling Leaf"
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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Well, when I think of falling leaf (which is dipping the end of the board to go from sideslip to traverse, then the traverses are much shorter than "real" traverses.
crazy_skier_jules, Very simple, and I'm sure you've been shown it. Ski parallel across the slope, keep your weight on your downhil ski (as though you were in a supermarket checkout queue), and keep your chest/shoulders/hips more or less in line with the skis. They can be more downhill than that, but never more uphill. Thus you look across the slope as D G Orf, said, and don't actually have to look down! This is what I do on the little mountain roads BTW! Be warned: if you plough the skis will turn into the fall line - ditto if you lean on the uphill ski!
For garlands it's very similar, but you lose more height which is very useful if you're scared and the run is wide. Traverse across as above, shift your weight onto the uphill ski (without leaning uphill - again the supermarket checkout queue) the skis will start to run off down the hill. As soon as you feel the skis begin to do this shift your weight back on to the downhill ski and repeat when comfortable. 
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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Surely the best way to stay in control on any slope is to ski 'curves'. Skiing is all about continuous, curvy turns. You just make sure that you 'finish' the turn up the hill. This checks your speed and gives control.
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Of course for really steep narrow slopes you could learn to traverse backwards, that way you never have to turn down the slope, but it's only really safe to use that on short sections or someone will ski into you because they don't realise what you're doing, on a wider slope just start to snowplough before you get to the edge of the piste, you will turn down the slope but keep at it and you will turn back the way you came, now just traverse back across the slope and repeat as necessary till you get to the bottom of the slope, don't try to turn after you've gone off the edge of the piste because 9 times out of 10 you fall over in the softer snow, an alternative would be to use a kick turn which I'm sure that Charlotte knows how to do but seems not to be taught these days, perhaps someone could tell us why
Traverse = Weight on lower ski, top ( uphill ) ski slightly ahead, top shoulder slightly ahead looking fowards and somewhat down the slope so you can see what's ahead, keep the knees and ankles flexed slightly to absorb any bumps, if you have to stop suddenly push the tails of the skis downwards (another reason to keep the legs bent), this will cause you to go uphill and stop very quickly
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You know it makes sense.
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D G Orf, We tend to be quite relaxed about upper body position these days, although we obviously discourage turning any part of you up the hill.
erica2004, Of course you're right in the main, but crazy_skier_jules, has said that she gets like that on steeper slopes, so either she has some technical issues anyway, or she's just plain afraid. Either way traversing is very useful. It may simply be that she's overfaced herself - it's very difficult to say without actually seeing her ski.
A good while ago there was a teaching methodology called "direct method" which involved continuous turns in the fall line with no traversing. The turns gradually going from plough through basic swing to parallel. There was a lot of merit in the system, and Ali Ross (for one) used it to great effect. The problem was that you do have to be able to traverse well to be safe in certain situations, and that some less talented ski teachers didn't have the same excellent terrain selection. I've actually seen a video of this happening: slope too steep for the level of the students to make linked fall line turns, students didn't know how to trverse = total mayhem and probably 8 people put off for life.
Heini Messner always said that traversing was the most basic and important skill. I don't know if I believe that 100%, but it certainly has merit.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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easiski, are kick turns still taught these days ? I know that I was taught and given that you learnt in the same place you will know how to do them, but I never see them being used these days and when I do them people ask me what on earth I'm doing so I guess they're not taught how to do them but I don't know why.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| D G Orf wrote: |
| I know that I was taught and given that you learnt in the same place you will know how to do them, but I never see them being used these days and when I do them people ask me what on earth I'm doing so I guess they're not taught how to do them but I don't know why. |
Phew try saying that without taking a breath!
Kick turns do seem to be overlooked these days (along with side slipping). I still find them invaluable if I find myself in really bad snow off-piste for example.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Arno, yep and very good if you accidently go off piste in a whiteout, I know at least some teachers still teach side slipping but I think many of them seem to be trying to get people on the snow as quickly as possible and don't teach the greater skills that used to be taught when people had more time and patience to learn
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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D G Orf, in the US, side-slipping is still taught, but it is now considered as part of more advanced teaching, rather than beginner level.
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D G Orf, I think the reason kick turns are no longer taught in general actually goes back to the many knee injuries they caused with the longer skis! I often have students who ask me to teach them, and I do if asked, but not otherwise (I find them a strain even with shorter skis). I remember well doing them on Plum Pudding HIll (when there was still a lift there) for my SCGB Bronze! Side slipping, on the other hand I always try to teach in the first week as it's a total lifesaver, and I consider it the single most important thing anyone will ever learn on skis (seriously). It will get anyone out of any fix. It can also be used as part of general edge awareness exercises which I find helpful for beginners. In France I see most instructors teaching sideslipping as the 2* test includes it. BTW it's very difficult for people with short legs (kids).
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Wear The Fox Hat, perhaps thats one reason why there are so many out of control skiers and borders out there, they don't know how to do what were once considered basic skills.
Last year on the first or possibly the second day of my holiday I came across a young couple having problems going down a blue run, mainly because they couln't do a long traverse, so I showed them how to traverse and sideslip and a few other tips like stance, all it meant was that I slowed down for 30 to 40 mins to help, seeing as I was skiing on my own and just cruising arround that was fine with me, later on in the week the same couple saw me at a restaurant and came over to say thankyou, apparently after my tiny bit of instruction they felt a lot more confident and rapidly progressed to harder and steeper runs. Now it was nice of them to come and say thank you but it was anoying to think that if they'd had a better instructor when they'd been taught they would not have needed my assistance 
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D G Orf, so we go back to the need for people to receive instruction!
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easiski,
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Side slipping, on the other hand I always try to teach in the first week as it's a total lifesaver, and I consider it the single most important thing anyone will ever learn on skis (seriously).
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I totaly agree, if in doubt sideslip out 
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Wear The Fox Hat, Yes but beyond that we need ta analyse what they are taught or perhaps what order they are taught certain skills
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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D G Orf, true. In the US side-slipping is taught on blacks, because that is where it is most useful. Beginners are taught wedge control. Next comes traversing, then comes side-slipping. To teach all three at the start, I believe, is not the best, because the skier will choose one over the others. Side-slipping well also requires good stance and balance - doing it well with poorly fitted boots takes a lot of effort, but doing it when you're set up properly is easy. Learning it leads in to W turns and J turns, and those are definitely not beginner exercises.
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Wear The Fox Hat, forgive my ignorance of the correct terms, but what the heck are W and J turns ? Oh and whats wedge control ?
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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D G Orf,
Not quite sure I have quite the same understanding as Wear The Fox Hat, of what a J turn is, as I would use it to introduce someone to carving. On a gentle slope point the skis downhill and then gently roll them onto edge. The ski begins to carve a turn following a "J" shape, hence J turns. Actually for me this would be step 2 for carving - step one would be carving whilst already in a traverse. I find going straight into J turns causes people to rotate their ski as they worry they are not turning quickly enough. Know lots of instructors who use it though. Don't see how side slipping comes into it. No idea what a W turn is!!
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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beanie1, you're half way there with the J turn. So, after going down, and turning up the hill, repeat it backwards - so, put a mirror of the J underneath it.
For a W turn - it should really be a lower case omega, or a "double U" i.e. a rounded W (UU) - ski down, round the first U and up, then backwards down and up the second U, so one is forward, and the other is backward.
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Wear The Fox Hat,
OK I get it now! Where does the side slipping come in though?
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You know it makes sense.
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beanie1, because it's a progression from falling leaf - i.e. you go from a forward/backward sideslip into gradually bigger forward/backward movements until two footed carved turns can be done.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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Ok I think I understand now...................... probably
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Poster: A snowHead
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Ooooh thatnks loads easiski!! Will remember that!
Julia
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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Wear The Fox Hat,
OK, get it now.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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Wear The Fox Hat, I'm afraid that all sounds unnecessary complicated to me, and I take issue that beginners learning turns, traverses and sideslipping will use one over the others - rubbish! It does, of course, all depend on how these things are explained - but that's always the case! Remember: K.I.S.S.
From the beginner point of view they need to be able to get out of the messes that their "friends" are undoubtedly going to land them in - blue runs on second day, red on 3rd etc. "It;s not steep" ...... Sideslipping is the one sure way to do it - it doesn't have to be technically correct - just effective. I'm sorry, but to wait until they no longer need it to learn it seems a bit ludicrous to me. 
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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easiski, I only base my comments on what I have seen - skiing with Americans in classes who have never seen side-slipping performed before.
I was taught in Europe originally, and so was taught it on straight skis early on.
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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easiski, you have to make allowances for them, after all they are US citizens, they can't cope with complicated subjects, hell they can't cope with complicated plots in tv series which is why they tend to have one event per episode
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easiski,
or K.I.S.S.S. as we were taught... 
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beanie1, What's the extra S for?
Wear The Fox Hat, Perhaps in the US they are less likely to be taken to pistes that are much too steep for them? Here, it's a perennial problem for the unfortunate beginners with ski-ing friends. (Mind you, some of our blues are really reds!)
Where's ssh, when you need him? Perhaps he could explain why???
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easiski,
Stupid - when referring to trainee instructors who waffle on and on and on...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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beanie1, 
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easiski,
Well, it rhymes...sort of...
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FAQ
Don't try steeper runs until you feel really somfortable on less steep, when you're bored with blues it's time for reds! 
