Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

A snowHead

OK thanks......I'll ask the wife if I can go.....

A snowHead

Don't ask the wife!! Just say you're popping out to get some milk... Toofy Grin

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

That'll be yak's milk

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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

The Voice of Reason, it'll cost you an arm and a leg!

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altis, it'll cost me more than that if the wife catches up with me wink

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

Hong Kong insurance is the easiest. Skiing not mentioned anywhere in the policy, therefore is included. Pretty much the only excluded activity is piloting a commercial jet!

You don't get the "added extras" that come with a winter sports policy eg piste closure, equipment theft etc, but I'm happy to take the risk on those.

After all it is free

So back on topic-ish...

As a guided ski holiday company/ ski safety courses /private guiding company, we are trying to recommend suitable insurance for our customers for both when they are with us and when not.

To me, regardless of avalanche warnings/ropes/signs, by hiring a guide (or being on a course) you have made a reasonable decision and the guide assumes responsibility for the group (but you must do what they say etc).

If you have educated yourself by reading, taking an avalanche/off-piste safety course, hired guides before and learnt from them, and/or skied many times off piste, then you are in a better position to reasonably judge whether/where to go off-piste. The more knowledgable/experienced you are, the more reasonable it is. So it is not as simple as saying anyone is covered anywhere off-piste in any conditions/risk level or vice versa a blanket ban at Cat 3 or whatever.

I think that if you ignore closed signs and ropes or pisteurs advice, you need to be pretty darn sure of yourself to feel that you know better than the local experts/authorities... and just because you have insurance should not influence your decision to do it.

This all sounds a bit anal, but it's not supposed to!

The idea is that we want to recommend insurance that covers what we all want to do and will make minimal blanket statements, so that if there is a grey area (in terms of your responsibilty) then maybe individual experience can be taken into account...

All a bit complicated, but boils down to making reasonable decisions and not being reckless.

beanie1, sorry was writing when you posted! Don't mean you are off topic!

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Ok, so having read this, I'm a little worried about my own insurance... it's cheaper than a lot of the stuff I've seen quoted on this thread. I can't remember exactly, but well under £100 for an annual policy and the wording says I am covered for:

Skiing and snowboarding, off-piste skiing and snowboarding except in areas considered to be unsafe by resort management, recreational ski and snowboard racing, monoskiing, cross-country skiing, snowmobiling, tobogganing, glacier walking or trekking up to 6000 metres, cat skiing and ice skating.

And if I'm under 50 and pay an extra premium they'll cover me for:
Heli-skiing, ski acrobatics, ski stunting, freestyle skiing, ski racing and training (not professional), ice hockey, skeletons and bobsleighs.

Do you think the catch is "except in areas considered to be unsafe by resort management"? I always read that as "Don't ski on a closed piste/duck any ropes" but technically they could say that any off-piste is "unsafe"..

Policy is with "Insure and Go".

Steve

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Yup that's right. That's the one. It is just one tragic example of what happens. Lots of things like this go on and fortunately many do not end in accidents or death.

I brought it up just to illustrate an extreme example of someones actions and whether one could expect insurers to payup for such reckless behaviour even if they have insurance....food for thought.

You know it makes sense.

Anyone who does specially dangerous or mad or reckless things, or ignores local experts who warn them not to proceed, or sets off down a difficult descent on a warm afternoon at 4 pm etc etc etc cannot reasonably expect their insurer to bail them out. But for the most part, that's not what we're talking about here, is it? Or climbing Everest or sailing far flung waters (I met many ocean cruisers when we lived in Fiji - practically all had sold their houses to buy their boats and finance their trip and none was insured).

What we need to know is whether, if we are skiing off piste, on a not steep slope, and fall and bust a knee, whether our insurer is going to try to wriggle out of it on the basis that there was an avalanche warning of, say, 3.

It's all very well to say we should ask them, but they are not always prepared to give sensible answers (for reasons which are easily understood, given they are commercial enterprises not a public service).

My annual policy costs over £240 for two of us, so it it's not cheap. But I do pay for seasonal carte neige as well - a course of action sometimes written off as a waste of money. That's why I was asking whether the families of those chaps in Tignes (who do sound as though they were a bit reckless, actually) would have been pursued for rescue costs if they'd had Carte Neige or Carré Neige.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

dreamguides, this story relayed to me the other day... this summer two guys on the Costa Blah Blah jumped off a 3rd floor balcony trying to get into the pool. Of course, from up there at 4am and under the influence, it looked like just a few feet from the edge, whereas it was more like 20. Splat. One dead, one paralysed. Clearly reckless and clearly drunk but, I'm told, insurance co have picked up the tab. Evidently cheaper than a lengthy legal fight.

Strikes me that nobody on this forum deliberately puts themselves in harm's way like that. As long as you're acting reasonably you should be OK from an insurance perspective. Having that box ticked is no use if you've just been mangled by an avalanche though.

A snowHead

Bode Swiller, Interesting. Most policies seem to exclude accidents while under the influence of the alcohol.

A snowHead

Bode Swiller,

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

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Bode Swiller, I recall a couple of cases in the news where Insurers have resisted paying so it's not a given.

dreamguides,

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

what is the difference between reckless and stupid?

And BTW these are just my thoughts, not knowing much about the intricacies of insurance...

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Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

After all it is free

For those that have been following the developments of this thread. Over on my Les Arcs info site in the discussions section, there have been some interesting responses from the major underwriters and Insurance companies posted.

http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=134900026541300&topic=150

With permission of the person that has posted this info, when he has finished posting the details supplied by all the major companies and brokers I will share the details on this forum. In the meantime for anyone that wants to read the details for themselves, go to the link I have posted and have a look. Some very interesting stuff coming out.

Thanks for posting these details everyone and snowcrazy, the info on your group page was very interesting, I look forward to reading the update you will be making.

Has anyone asked whether the SCGB or SCUK policy cover you off piste without the avalanche gear. If anyone sees them at the ski show, pity I cannot make it this year. It would be very interesting to hear what they have to say, especially as the SCGB have these leaders that take people off piste. Do they give out gear to everyone before they go off piste?

I think from reading the info that if you do not carry the gear (arvi, shovel, probes) off piste your insurance might not me valid now with any of the companies. They all write this thing about taking reasonable care and heeding/seeking local advice and knowing the off piste area well before going alone. I asked a pisteur once about off piste skiing and he said you are mad to go off piste without the right gear, know how to use it and know the route where you plan to ski really well. Seems all good advice to me. Shock

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richardK,

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I had a marketing email from Virgin money yesterday, offering me 20% off insurance. I checked their travel insurance which seemed very good value and includes off piste skiing, though you'd need to explore it a bit. Because it only covers 24 days winter sports (a fact well buried in the small print) it is no good for me. But trips of up to 90 days are covered if you're under 65. Price seemed excellent and their top tier product had no excess.

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Hurtle, that is not quite correct, saying 'YES' to that question implies that they give you all the gear. In fact the ski club only give out a transceiver and so I wonder where that leaves you if you have an accident off piste plus it seems rather strange that they should be promoting avalanche awareness courses whilst allowing there reps to take you off piste without the right gear. Would be worth finding out what there Insurance think about that?

pam w, I just tried to look at the Virgin cover you mentioned and you have to call them to get the details about what they mean by off piste cover plus it looks like you have to pay extra. Seems that it may be a case of to good to be true. If I have the time on Monday i might call them unless someone else has already asked and can post there reply.

jasonc, ....if you have a few hours to kill, there are reams of severely heated discussion on SCGB website dedicated to answering your most pertinent of questions....! under "Reps in Tignes".

You know it makes sense.

Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:

I have just had a quick read through of my SCGB insurance terms and conditions (AAARRRGGGH that dreaded phrase).

It does state that off piste skiing is specifically covered. There is no mention of any need to be with a guide, nor is there any mention of any need to carry avalanche safety equipment. For what it's worth, most of my off piste skiing is done with guides and I do always carry the usual off piste kit.

I think non members can access all the insurance Ts & Cs information through the ski club website.

A snowHead

For those looking for insurance this winter, I have just posted a detailed account of claiming for an off piste accident over on my facebook group page.

Take a look if you are interested. If you want to ask questions please post there or here afterwards or if you prefer send me a PM. It makes interesting reading and is a real incident from last season. Just with names removed. Please anyone that knows who the people are do not post names, respect there privacy. Thanks.

andrewchalmers, I just had a look at that page, interesting Toofy Grin

I see a certain person is up to his stuff again. But not much about insurance there more to do with what Reps (now leaders) can and cannot do anymore. Quite entertaining some of the replies.

richjp, Think you should have a read of what is posted over on my facebook page. Am waiting for an answer from my friends enquiry re. how will what the underwriters have said really effect SCGB insurance. Should be interesting as it contradicts what you are saying I think.

A snowHead

snowcrazy, can you not just post the story on here? Getting bored of your constant prompts to go and read your facebook page rolling eyes

Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?

ChrisWo, yeah, but if you enjoy a laugh, it's worth a peek. The most naive bunch of nonsense I think I've ever read. And I mean EVER. This statement really got me wondering:

If you ski off piste in avalanche warning level 4 or 5 will you still be covered by your insurance?
NO

Based on these replies, you need to be very careful next winter. Again do not go off piste without all basic avalanche safety gear, do not ski closed runs and make sure the resort has not said an area has any avalanche risk, let alone level 4 or 5.

I wonder do these companies really have any understanding of off piste skiing. Since when can there ever be a zero avalanche risk?

I see a test case coming soon! I hope you are all finding this interesting cus I sure am.

The answer "no" to the question "If you ski off piste in avalanche warning level 4 or 5 will you still be covered by your insurance?" is not a surprise because even "these companies" who are supposed to have no understanding can read. Forgive me for stating the bleedin' obvious but level 4 means a High risk of avalanche, level 5 means Very High (go look up the full definitions if you don't know them) - in other words, avalanche is quite likely if you are the muppet creating the additional load necessary to trigger it. You cannot insure against something that is quite likely to happen. Insurance is there for things that couldn't reasonably be foreseen; it's a basic principle. The reason nearly all victims occur in levels 2 and 3 is because very few are out in 4 and 5 and most often the off-piste is closed off (where it can be). It's an absolute nonsense to ask an insurance company if it's ok to go out when the risk is so high. What are they meant to say? Are you asking them to make your decisions for you from their desk at Lloyds? The stats are pretty stark if you go seek them out (I have) - levels 2 and 3 are where the incidents and death live so it really is no surprise that insurance companies are wary and there is no way they are going to say 4 or 5 is OK, because it isn't.

Test case? What, regarding your own death maybe? Or your mate's? And will I find it interesting? Errr... no.

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Bode Swiller, many snowheads have skiied off piste at a level 4, and my insurance says nothing about what level the warning has to be before I am/am not covered....

Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.

kitenski, I agree, many have and will in the future and that's entirely up to them - if they are such experts surely they don't need insurance. But some people are asking their insurance company to make a decision for them and others are poo-poo'ing their insurance company because they won't play along. What decision could an insurance underwriter possibly make when they look up the definition of level 4 (Release of avalanches are likely from low additional load on steep slopes. Occasional medium sized, sometimes also large spontaneous avalanches have to be expected)? I've enboldened the bits that would freak them out. If a local IFMGA-qualified guide says it's OK and is willing to take you, then I'd say you are taking reasonable precautions so you are covered but, if a holiday-making amateur avalanche "expert" leads his mates into an area on a level 4 day and gets snowballed, then I'd say he/she and they wouldn't be covered. People refer to there being grey areas - of course there are.

By the way, I feel for those rescue workers who perish tidying up afterwards - quite a few do.

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Those numbers are only a general overall guide, aren't they? the nature of the slope and the time of day are also critical - the "wrong slope" might be much more dangerous when the overall level is at 2 or 3 than a "safer slope" when the general risk is 5.

Then you can post your own questions or snow reports...

pam w, absolutely, shades of grey, not black & white. Luckily, most resorts are pretty good at protecting people from themselves.

After all it is free

Apologies if someone has already mentioned them (didn't have chance to read all of the pages) but we use MPI Brokers for off piste ski insurance. Fortunately, never had to use them in but they covered everything we were looking for - max 17 days, off piste for me and Mr PP (who says he will HAVE to log on the the forum so that people don't think he's incontinent) Embarassed

Anyway, if you want to know more just let me know...

Bode Swiller, I am so pleased you like to read my info facebook site for a bit of a laugh, but it also shows me that you have Toofy Grin

know idea

about what you are talking about when it comes to Insurance and skiing off piste if you think that the comments quoted by experts that have been posted there are nonsense.

Maybe you need to try reading what the different companies have stated and try to put it into context of off piste skiing. This has all started to come to a head because of the case in Tignes a while back and the changes in Italy recently and something that should not be taken lightly and all off piste skiers need to be aware of these changes.

With regards to avalanche levels, loads of good skiers go off piste in level 4, as Pam said, it can be level 4 on one slope but quite safe on another. It depends how well you know the ski area. More people that do not know what they are doing get hurt in avalanche level 2 and 3 when they think it might be safe than happen at higher levels and it is not just because fewer people ski off piste at level 4. You do not have to be an Instructor or Guide to know when things are safe or not if you understand snow conditions and know the area well. As those of us with experience know, an accident can happen to anyone as was found last season in Les Arcs when one of the senior guides was killed, a friend of mine and very sad. What none of us want is for Insurance companies to start dictating when we can and cannot ski off piste. Some of the replies by the companies have been very good, others have tried to avoid the issue and they are the ones I would not trust if a claim had to be made.

Carrying your own safety gear is a no brainier to me as it is also too the pisteurs and resort authorities. As one friend who is a senior resort security director says, you are crazy to go off piste without the right kit anywhere. You are either on piste or off piste and in Europe the pistes are protected but not the off piste. Also just carrying a transceiver is a joke, unless everyone in the group has shovel and probes as well how can anyone expect to do a rescued in time. How many people have tried to climb back up an avalanche or deep snow slope in an emergency. If you do not have the right kit and act quickly you will be to late. And do not think they only happen miles from the piste, they happen right by the piste sometimes as was seen last season.

In Les Arcs as in a few other areas in France they are now making 'Nature Ride' areas which are protected off piste runs, much better than the old itineraries which were often not protected. These areas are great for people to learn off piste skills safely but can only be entered when they are officially open or your insurance will be invalid. But still a great way to introduce people to off piste skills.

ChrisWo, sorry you do not like having to read my Les Arcs info group page on facebook, but to avoid comments that are pointless and offensive it is better to post most stuff there first and then only a summary here later. From the number of people that read the pages there it seems that it is very popular but I agree discussion afterwards is good here as well.

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As it appears that this subject has now been taken up by other forums which are following posts here, I am updating my comments to this thread. I am pleased to see tha the efforts to make my point that we should all be concerned about the changing trends in Insurance cover for off piste is now being followed by professionals in this field. The power of the internet. Well done for snowheads leading the way yet again.

Sorry to anyone who has already read this and go to the bottom of the page for the most recent comment.

Direct Travel were one of the best for giving a straight answer to most of the questions about what they will and will not cover when they were asked about a month or so ago which was good. But like all these companies they have the' putting yourself at risk clause' so they can always get out of paying up if they really wanted to. If you are not going off piste then most of the companies offer much the same deals, just a matter of seeing which one will give the best price.

If you do plan on going off piste with a qualified guide who, if in France should give you all the safety gear you will need, then Direct Travel are as good as any. If you are doing it yourselves with friends then my advice, make sure you have the right avalanche safety gear and stick to places you know well or they might decide you were putting yourself at risk if anything went wrong. If I can find the wording they used I will post it here later. The same goes for most of the other companies now as well. SCUK, BMC, SCGB, Dogtag, Snowcard, Fogg, Axa - they all have a get out clause if they think you were taking risks so be careful.

I use the carte neige as it is what most french people use and my friends had a big claim last year without any problems when it was off piste. If you use the CN then you only need normal travel insurance for flights, bags etc as a top up which most people get free with there credit card bookings. Or you can get private insurance on top like I have, but that is not cheap.

Help!!

Off Piste Insurance cover "without a guide" ?

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