 Poster: A snowHead
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| achilles wrote: |
| At the MSB, talking to Christian, who teaches children racing, there is an extra element not covered in instruction I have had from recognised ski instructors - fore and aft movement - over the skis during turns. |
Do you think the ability to manage fore/aft movement isn't important in all skiing? |
Firstly my comment was merely an observation from an interested on-looker of this thread, rather than an active positive or negative viewpoint.
Dealing with your question: certainly, in variable snow, I have had to adapt fore/aft weigh distribution quickly according to changing circumstances - and sometimes the nature of the snow triggers the need to change weight fore or aft from the on-piste norm. However, what Christian seemed to be describing was weight forward at turn initiation, weight back towards the end. This technique struck me as being race oriented, rather than what an intermediate skier would be taught.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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| achilles wrote: |
| ... certainly, in variable snow, I have had to adapt fore/aft weigh distribution quickly according to changing circumstances - and sometimes the nature of the snow triggers the need to change weight fore or aft from the on-piste norm. However, what Christian seemed to be describing was weight forward at turn initiation, weight back towards the end. This technique struck me as being race oriented, rather than what an intermediate skier would be taught. |
Sure, the application of that skill will vary with context. For a beginner the skill is just staying centered on their skis rather than being too far back or too far forward. But the skill of being able to manage fore/aft movement is applicable to all skiers, and I would say the more an instructor understands it and can perform it the more chance they have of being able to teach it with insight and great skill.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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You need to Login to know who's really who.
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Axsman, 
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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Just out of interest, are there any anti age discrimination laws that apply in France?
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rob@rar, fair comment. FWIW, I am inclined to agree with the view that a good instructor should be capable (or been capable in their time, before age and injury had taken their toll) of a good time through the gates.
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It does seem to me, having watched instructors in training for their Eurotest that it's a quest of diminishing marginal returns both in their personal performance and any increase in teaching ability. I can't help thinking that the time and money spent running gates could be used to better effect.
The nice thing about a timed test is that it's not a judged performance - about the only thing in Instructor Training that isn't.
A level similar to the AVMS in Aosta may be more appropriate. The last set of results I saw (January) had a pass rate of about 50% which seemed a bit better than a typical EuroTest (less than 10% ?)
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Kramer, we had this debate about the eurotest a while ago and one interesting fact that came to light was that in the USA the Rocky Mountain PSIA now require a timed GS test as part of the highest level certificate Level III.
THis test is age handicapped and speaking with an instructor going through their system he told me that it had to be handicapped or lawsuits would have flown about due to age discrimenation.... NOt sure about France...
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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david@mediacopy, agree fully with that...
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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| skimottaret wrote: |
| david@mediacopy, agree fully with that... |
I think I do to, although I don't know much about the Aosta test. I think that all the elements of the ISTD (and other qualifications for that matter) should place similar levels of demands on the candidate. It is clear that the Eurotest is out of line with the rest of the qualification, and I'm sure that this is for reasons other than to do with ensuring clients get good teachers. It has its place, but with modifications. I suspect that even with modifications my skill level won't be high enough to pass, so this is a fairly academic discussion for me, alas.
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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| BernardC wrote: |
| I have a feeling that the speed test in France is a selection tool to keep qualified numbers down - regardless of nationality, though it would seem to favour home growns who have exposure to racing from a very early age .... |
A numerus clausus as our Roman friends would say (or is it just lawyers?), the French have that for pharmacies, notaires, taxi drivers and even hair dresses... so I guess it is no surprise that a similar thing operates for ski instructors.
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rob@rar, what practical tests do they put on other domains of skiing - eg Bumps, Off-Piste etc etc ?
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You know it makes sense.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| rob@rar, what practical tests do they put on other domains of skiing - eg Bumps, Off-Piste etc etc ? |
There is a 6-point scale of skill acquisition which the Trainer will assess the candidate against. The fundamental elements of Control (speed, line, adjustment for snow and terrain), Steering (pressure, edge and rotation), Body (posture, balance and movements) and Flow (fluency & ease, coordination & rhythm, and balancing the forces of the curve & terrain) are assessed in a range of ski contexts (Central Theme, On-piste long radius, On-piste short radius, Variable Snow, Steeps and Bumps). This gives a matrix of 24 grades which you are assessed on, by the Trainer using his professional judgement. It's an on-going assessment, lasting 10 days in the case of BASI Level 2.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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stoatsbrother, within BASI you are graded 1-6 on performance in all aspects of skiing (on piste long radius turns, short turns, bumps, variable snow conditions and steeps)
at L2 you need to score 4's for bumps, variables and steeps at L3 (ISIA) you need 5's and at ISTD the testing requirement is even higher with more demanding terrain and tougher lines etc.
you also at L3 need to pass a 6 day mountain safety course for leading groups off piste and a 5 day Level 1 race coaching course designed to train you to coach <12 racers.
there are other requirements but it is safe to say at ISIA and higher the training is comprehensive
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Poster: A snowHead
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skimottaret, indeed. I'm not sure whether there are anti-age discrimination laws in the EU that would apply, and whether someone has tested it.
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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rob@rar, And this is the same for the French method of testing? Sillly question probably...
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| rob@rar, And this is the same for the French method of testing? Sillly question probably... |
No idea I'm afraid. Don't know much detail of the French system.
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rob@rar, The BASI approach sounds pretty sensible to me.
skimottaret, Does that 6 point scale apply to people doing the ISIA in France rather than via BASI?
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| Does that 6 point scale apply to people doing the ISIA in France rather than via BASI? |
The 6-point scale is used by BASI at all levels of the qualification they offer, regardless of where the course is undertaken.
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rob@rar, misunderstanding - sorry if I wasn't clear - doing ISIA not via BASI but via a French or other European framework.
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| Quote: |
skimottaret, Does that 6 point scale apply to people doing the ISIA in France rather than via BASI?
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If your question is do the French authorities (ENSA) use a 6 point scale I dont belive so. Each country's training scheme is individual but must meet a minimum quality standard at ISIA level so the outcomes of teacher quality are roughly comparable. An ISIA trained in Canada or USA will have broadly similar skills and abilities but could have much different training regimes. For instance in the USA they dont have multi week training courses with ongoing assessment like BASI but instead rely on shorter pass/fail skiing examinations and rely more on individual learning for training.
I just did a Canadian race coach course and they had a similar but 4 point rating scale for instance.
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| stoatsbrother wrote: |
| rob@rar, misunderstanding - sorry if I wasn't clear - doing ISIA not via BASI but via a French or other European framework. |
OK. Sorry, can't answer that one. I vaguely recall reading that the CSIA uses a similar system (in fact BASI might well have adopted it from the Canadians), but I don't know about other European systems.
Within that 24 grade matrix you should not fall below the pass mark in any area. It seems to me that BASI demand a very well-rounded performance to pass their qualifications. The pass mark varies slightly (higher for on-piste work, one grade lower for off-piste), and different elements of teaching are also weighted differently, but you have to reach the level required in all elements to get the badge.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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I tend to agree with Rob's comments on all of this. The advantage of some kind of speed test / test technique is that it puts you under different pressures.
Guide and Mountain Leader training do the same thing. Phil Ingle, who a lot of us know through his fantastic trip reports, has just completed his probatoire for the French version of the European Mountain Leader exam (once again the French version seems harder than the UK version and there are cries of protectionism viz. Mountain Bike leaders). Phil had to complete an 1800 meter mountain route (at Chamrousse) in 6 hours with a 15kg rucksack. He then had to do 400meters of scree walking without falling, dislodging lots of stones, putting hands down etc. Then there was a timed orienteering session.
Out of the 260 who started on the first day 180 were eliminated.
Do you need the above skills to be a good mountain leader or are they designed to restrict the number of new entrants to the profession?
Whatever, Phil has certainly shown that he is a competent walker in the mountains who, if you got into trouble, would be able to sprint to the nearest village or point where he could pick up a telephone signal.
Of the 80 remaining most will get through their training which includes aspects on the environment, flora and fauna and legal issues as well as mountain culture. The idea is to weed out the weakest at the start. Guide training works the same way and French ski instructor training too.
That BASI leave the test technique and speed test exams to later in the curriculum reflects the fact that many new entrants don't already have a number of years of skiing under their belts and need to be brought up to "ahem" speed. I don't know what Rob's or others experiences are but I did a week's training with the BASI about 10 year's ago (I had around a year's skiing under my belt at the time) and they were very honest about the level of commitment that would be required even to gain the basic level of exam. I also realised that I would never be quick enough to pass the Capa but that's another story.
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Isn't the problem here two-fold:
1 - The European Union single market act (~1986, or thereabouts) allows for anyone provider of goods and services in one EU country to provide the same goods and services in another EU country. In the absence of EU-wide professional qualifications, a necessary step was to agree that one country's qualification was equally valid as another, be it medicine, accountancy, actuarial or skiing. (Obviously, where specific country differences exist, e.g. tax law, then further specific qualification would be necessary, but not even the French can claim that the requirements of skiing are different on French pistes to other EU pistes!) Thus, like it or not, a British qualified ski instructor is legally entitled to teach in France, irrespective of the French qualification rules. This is a price to be paid for being in the EU. (This is not just one-way: For example, to qualify as an actuary int he UK is very difficult. To qualify as one in France is not so difficult, but French actuaries can call themselves actuaries in the UK, even though they have not passed exams to the same standard as UK trained actuaries.)
2 - The French, culturally, think that rules and laws exist for the benefit of France, rather than the whole of the EU. For example, France has more EU court judgements outstanding against it for non-compliance with EU law than any other country, and blindly ignores them. (The UK should do the same, but that is another story!!) France refused to allow British beef to be imported, even after the EU lifted its ban after the BSE saga. Thus, from the viewpoint of the French, it is ludicrous to consider that a British ski instructor qualification can be meaningful, and so attempts are made to stop British (and probably other nationalities) ski instructors. If we'd had a skiing enthusiast Prime Minister whose offspring had wanted to be ski instructors in France, then I feel certain that a deal would have been done, involving British entry to the Euro in exchange for the cessation of illegal attempts to stop British ski instructors working in France. 
Note this isn't an anti-French rant - Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs operate against EU law by allowing themselves to confiscate imported fags / booze in excess of what they consider to be for personal use. There is no such provision in the concept of the free movement of goods and services in the single market act.
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snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
snowHeads are a friendly bunch.
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davidof, I was once told by a UIAGM qualified guide that part of their assessment included a timed descent on skis of challenging terrain. Is this right?
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And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
And love to help out and answer questions and of course, read each other's snow reports.
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rob@rar, Yes, then need to get down the mountain between sunrise and sunset, many fail.
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davidof, THe French do "weed out" the weakest skiers quite quickly with the Test Technique and once you pass that, complete a two week course and a first aid diploma you can enter their training system and teach as a first cycle stagiere.
IMO a good low cost way to get good skiers into a professional training programme earning while they learn.... BASI is in some ways mirroring this now with their L1 badge which allows teaching in artificial slopes to ease your transition into teaching.
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You know it makes sense.
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Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
Otherwise you'll just go on seeing the one name:
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To veer back to the legal case for a moment, is it saying that the guy Butler who had the ISID level of qualification, did NOT have the speed test?
I read it (quickly and am about to re-read) as saying that since he had some ISIA instructors working for him the French were saying his provision of instruction wasn't up to their standard and that the case hung around the issue of how many "fully qualified" (ISID) instructors you need to be able to offer a "ski instruction" service to clients in France.
IMO the speed test makes no sense. Yes there should be a timed test of GS, but it should not be at the level of a professional athelete. As others have noted, coaches do not need to better than the people they coach. Also, to dig up the driving analogy again, F1 driving or ralley driving use different techniques and skills to road driving - there is no need to a driving instuctor to master these techniques at a high level in order to be able to teach someone to drive. Similarly for skiing, I agree some of the principles for GS would be shared with recreational skiers, but to be honest very little else. For example, a recreational skier uses turning to slow themsleves down, whereas a GS skier uses turning to change direction (Phil Smith - Snoworks says this) so we have very different aims and out comes from what appears to be the same intention. The level is set too high, an ISTD instuctor should be able to ski GS gates well, but not at the level currently set. It could well be set with a sliding scale, so that as your result is slower you are awarded fewer marks, thus enabling you to pass by scoring better in other areas.
Teaching skiing is about more than having a high level of race technique, there are so many other aspects to moving on skis which are possibly more important than being able to do a GS fast.
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Poster: A snowHead
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| johnnyh wrote: |
| ... a recreational skier uses turning to slow themsleves down ... |
By changing direction  The common theme is that the racer and the recreational skier has to control how they turn (by and large using the same tools)...
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Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
Obviously A snowHead isn't a real person
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On the equal opps thing, it's the same with teaching. My wife qualified as a teacher in the UK a few years back. She was teaching French. She trained some of the time in France, in France in French schools but she is still not considered qualified to teach in France. Not even to teach English to French students.
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Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
Well, the person's real but it's just a made up name, see?
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| Quote: |
To veer back to the legal case for a moment, is it saying that the guy Butler who had the ISID level of qualification, did NOT have the speed test?
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That was my take on it. From what i recall he passed his grade 1 basi before the Speed test was ratified by the Euro zone countries and like all BASI grade 1's at the time they were "granted" ISTD equivalence status without having to do the speed test. But he didnt file the correct paperwork to get his equivalence in order.
sounds to me he is testing the bits he feels unfair with the whole sytem (by hiring ISIA's as stagieres for instance).... good luck to him 
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| Quote: |
| the case hung around the issue of how many "fully qualified" (ISID) instructors you need to be able to offer a "ski instruction" service to clients in France. |
A French instructor I used to use a lot complained about this once - he was obliged to reduce the number of trainees he could have because the ratio of fully trained to trainees was altered (2004-5, IIRC). So he had to send his trainee instructor son off to another school in the same resort. He had his own school, and felt that this was an ESF-specific protectionist measure rather than an anti-foreigner one. He was a good instructor too, so the French might rather have been shooting themselves in the pieds by reducing the number of people he could train!
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Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
Anyway, snowHeads is much more fun if you do.
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The key point though is that under EU law, it is irrelevant what the French think is an appropriate qualification. The only legal courses of action open to the French are:
1 - Withdraw from EU in protest. (Unlikely!)
2 - Propose a directive relating specifically to standardised EU skiing instructor qualifications, intructor/pupil ratios. (Also unlikely.)
3 - Operate under the law (less likely than 1 and 2, one suspects!)
4 - Work with other EU members to voluntarily harmonise standards (the obvious solution!)
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| Quote: |
the racer and the recreational skier has to control how they turn (by and large using the same tools)...
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. . . but the intention is different and therefore wouldn't you need to adjust how you taught someone this depending on their needs. I agree you need to know which is which (so you would need that GS experience but surely not to the level of a pro racer - I could recognise the two differences and I'm nowhere near fast enough to do the EuroTest - that wouldn't make me a bad teacher [accepting that I do not have any other qualifications to teach!!]).
Rob, surely you're an example where the speed test thing proves itself to be unfair. You admit you would struggle to pass, yet you appear to have a thorough knowledge of skiing and would no doubt make a great instructor. I assume, because you've invested much into doing the courses you some day would want to do that. But the EuroTest will prohhibit you taking your professional skiing to that level and yet it really is only one fixed aspect of the composite of being an instuctor. Surely you would agree that as a measure of ability it does not sit well with the other assesment and test criteria.
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| johnnyh wrote: |
Rob, surely you're an example where the speed test thing proves itself to be unfair. You admit you would struggle to pass, yet you appear to have a thorough knowledge of skiing and would no doubt make a great instructor. I assume, because you've invested much into doing the courses you some day would want to do that. But the EuroTest will prohhibit you taking your professional skiing to that level and yet it really is only one fixed aspect of the composite of being an instuctor. Surely you would agree that as a measure of ability it does not sit well with the other assesment and test criteria.
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As I've said earlier, I think the Eurotest as it currently stands is out of line with the other demands made on the candidate for an ISTD qualification. I am in favour of a timed GS test as part of the highest level qualification, just not the exact one we have at the moment. I'm not in favour of having different requirements for different national systems, so I wouldn't want to see BASI qualifications any easier or tougher than their notional equivalent awards from other countries. I also don't agree that the Eurotest is the one key measure which determines whether an instructor reaches the highest qualification. For me at least, I don't underestimate the difficulty of passing the ISTD Teaching and Technical modules.
I've started too late to make ski instruction a sensible career choice, but I would like to do some part-time teaching in the UK and overseas because I've discovered it is more enjoyable than I thought it would be. At the moment I am qualified to teach in most parts of the world (if a ski school would be prepared to employ me), with the notable exception of France (which is unfortunate as that's mostly where I ski). If I was younger and had less committments I'm sure I'd be trying to get a teaching post somewhere in North America right now and maybe NZ or Oz for the summer, but that won't happen at my stage of life. I hope to get to ISIA level and continue to do part-time stints here and there, and who knows what might happen in the future in France?
If I was responsible for who can teach with what qualification I'd probably go for something like BASI Level 2 for indoor/plastic slopes; ISIA (with a speed test of some kind) for teaching on a mountain but only within the confines of a recognised ski school (which had certain responsibilities for quality control); and ISTD for any teaching including as an independent instructor.
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| The Flying Snowplough wrote: |
The key point though is that under EU law, it is irrelevant what the French think is an appropriate qualification. The only legal courses of action open to the French are:
1 - Withdraw from EU in protest. (Unlikely!)
2 - Propose a directive relating specifically to standardised EU skiing instructor qualifications, intructor/pupil ratios. (Also unlikely.)
3 - Operate under the law (less likely than 1 and 2, one suspects!)
4 - Work with other EU members to voluntarily harmonise standards (the obvious solution!) |
Further option - ignore EU law, and concede individual cases when it goes to a high enough court.
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You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
You'll get to see more forums and be part of the best ski club on the net.
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achilles, I did list legal courses of action. I actually like the French approach of ignoring EU laws they don't like.
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| rob@rar wrote: |
| davidof, I was once told by a UIAGM qualified guide that part of their assessment included a timed descent on skis of challenging terrain. Is this right? |
Yes I believe so, amongst other equally difficult tests such as climbing ability etc. However it is maybe easier to become a mountain guide with sufficient time and motivation than a ski instructor (I'm not either but there seem to be more people coming to guiding later than getting the ISTD).
There is a similar exam to be a French piste patroller (although resorts can employ who they like AFAIKS) with the level similar to the test technique for instructors.
Another French cultural thing is they don't really believe in career change so things tend to be stacked against 30+ who want to try something different in life.
The comments about English teaching are very apt. The CAPES and AGREG are extremely difficult exams - especially to teach English if you are English because there is a large French component and someone who has not gone through the French education system would maybe struggle with concepts such as These, Antithese, Synthese.
Basically the idea of an eliminating competition for professions is much more pervasive than in the UK.
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